Quote Discussion, Current quote: “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.” page 31

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New quote:

“Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product.”

~Eleanor Roosevelt

 
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“happiness is not a goal, it is a byproduct”…

Huh. A byproduct of what, good?

But then we can still argue that whatever “good” is, happiness is still a decent indicator.

(Maybe later i’ll go look up what the context was later. Maybe.)

 
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The ultimate goal of life is to be happy, but it could very well be a by-product of our every day life. Can’t it be both?

 
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I think what Dartval means, is you don’t set out as your goal in life to be happy. Its something you desire, but its not your actual goal. Your actual goal is a target you set yourself – mine is the elimination of all physical disability by the end of my lifetime. You each have your own goals.

Achieving that goal would make me very happy. Every step on the way to that goal makes me happy; every person I help, every new and improved design I develop, and those other people develop as well, reminding me how close we are getting.

Happiness is not my goal itself, but anything that brings me closer to that goal gives me happiness. That’s why its a byproduct. A byproduct of achieving your goals.

 
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The more I look at it, the more the quote seems somewhat puritan to me. I can’t help but read it as a by product of ‘a good/virtuous/moral/proper/upstanding/whathaveyou life’. That it is wrong to pursue as an end to itself, but that it is a reward, a consequence of some other more primary, yet unspoken, thing.

Which to me seems silly. I certainly have happiness as a goal. I would hope others do as well. From my vantage I think far too many people have abandoned the personal imperative and conception of happiness and surrendered it as a byproduct. To not maintain your personal happiness as a goal seems like martyrdom to a cause, or just a duping into personal insignificance.

 
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Hmmmmm…..a very interesting quote, Dartval; interesting indeed.
Sure, some of the others have had “colorfully diverse” interpretations.
But, usually this was more a result of the “children” weighing in rather than the more developed “thinkers” on the forum.

But, this one,,,
this one certainly can be seen from quite a few different perspectives.
In fact, I wonder if just under the surface of it…..we are looking into the abyss of philosophy.

So, okay….ya’ve sufficiently twisted my arm enough to get me to toss my crap at that hole and see what goes “plunk”. That is if one can fathom that there is a “bottom” to philosophy.

Maybe if I change some wording of the quote and yet manage to remain as true to its intent (like I know what Rosy meant….lol) as possible.

Happiness, in & of itself, shouldn’t be the base goal.
It should be a RESULT of the pursuit of ventures of intrinsic value to the person.
This result can very often be surprisingly unintended, unsuspected, even embarrassingly visited.

Does one give a loved one a “gift” because it makes them self happy?
Well….basically, doing so will generate a warmness (happiness) w/in the giver.
BUT….isn’t this a RESULT (by-product) of the goal?
The goal being to express a much deeper aspect of the relationship than a superficial banality that far too often is used to demonstrate “social graces”.

The former being a card-of-a-few-words that paints a warmly glowing panorama of the caring love that (hopefully…WROTE) took the time to pick out the card and send//give it.

The latter being the card-of-even-fewer-words that are stilted a result of being forced to write that “thank-you” not to Aunt Hilda for the crappy gift she sent ya. Or, the cheerful notes the bride writes for the 7 toasters she received as wedding gifts.

Some ppl pursue happiness thinking that “things” are the answer.
Many of these NEVER are able to see that things can’t love them back,,,
nor, at the very least….appreciate (even w/ source unknown) the good fortune that has befallen them.

I find great “joy” in doing things for ppl that I don’t know and who haven’t a clue who I am or even what “secret angel” visited their life. So I do it to make ME happy? Well, yes…giving joy to others certainly does have the by-product of giving me happiness.

Happiness shouldn’t be a goal,,,
it should be an ADVENTURE.

 
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I’d say it’s certainly a goal. The way I see it it’s the only thing at all with any objectively positive value, and so the only thing that makes sense to even be a goal. Everything else is only evaluated as good or bad to the extent that it generates happiness/suffering. Why is being nice good? Because it makes people happy! Clearly others’ happiness has to be taken into account along with the happiness of oneself, but I still don’t see why it isn’t the ultimate goal.

I think the motivation behind her quote was about trying to stop people from focusing on “why am I not happy,” “I want to be happy,” etc. and start focusing on their real life and what’s actually going on now…which is the best way to be happy. So basically if you are “obsessed” with the idea of happiness and dwell on it all the time, you likely will not be happy, but on the other hand, I think it’s a little excessive to claim that it’s not a goal at all. One just has to take a more balanced approach in achieving the goal…

 
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New quote:

“If you want to be thought a liar, always tell the truth.”

~Logan P. Smith

 
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Not everything is as it appears.

If you always tell the truth, what many people don’t do now-a-days, they’ll think you’re lying, so when you do lie, they’ll believe you.

Assuming it’s related to reverse psychology

 
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Originally posted by Dartval:

New quote:

“If you want to be thought a liar, always tell the truth.”

~Logan P. Smith

The world is so political that if someone is unpretentious and states facts as they see it, people will mistrust them, therefore thinking them a “liar”. At least that’s the way I interpreted it.

 
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Ninj is on the right track,,,
however, I don’t think she is far enough down it.
It’s just that a lot of current attention is focused on the political (government) arena.

Lying isn’t just a “political” (in both definitions),,,
it appears it is an essentional part of the human condition

A long, loooong time ago…I read something that I thought was surely a typo or I misunderstood the author. It went like this: A child reaches a psychological mile-stone when they LEARN TO LIE. I thought it just had to mean: When a child learns WHAT a lie is.

The mind of a child is (usually) unable to distinguish a “lie” from reality. They believe the happenings they see in cartoons is reality. I can see learning such a distinction to be VERY important.

However, it seems what I had seen is somewhat a “truth”,,,
children do learn “to lie”,,,
and it appears it is something that is very socially “acceptable”….even “necessary”.

From the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie (Drop well down, past all of the various nuances of lying, to Psychology):
“The capacity to lie is noted early and nearly universally in human development. Social psychology and developmental psychology are concerned with the theory of mind, which people employ to simulate another’s reaction to their story and determine if a lie will be believable. The most commonly cited milestone, what is known as Machiavellian intelligence, is at the age of about four and a half years, when children begin to be able to lie convincingly. Before this, they seem simply unable to comprehend why others do not see the same view of events that they do—and seem to assume that there is only one point of view, which is their own.”

“Young children learn from experience that stating an untruth can avoid punishment for misdeeds, before they develop the theory of mind necessary to understand why it works. In this stage of development, children will sometimes tell outrageous and unbelievable lies, because they lack the conceptual framework to judge whether a statement is believable, or even to understand the concept of believability."

“When children first learn how lying works, they lack the moral understanding of when to refrain from doing it. This takes years of watching people tell lies, and the results of these lies, to develop a proper understanding. Propensity to lie varies greatly between children, some doing so habitually and others being habitually honest. Habits in this regard are likely to change in early adulthood.”

This link gives us:
“The truth is, kids learn by modeling and learning from the behavior they see in their environment. That’s why school doesn’t just teach facts and dates and math and grammar, it teaches how to socially interact with others in an appropriate manner.”

“So it should be no surprise, really, that our children pick up not only our best traits — our honesty, sincerity, ethics and morals — but also some of our worse ones too.”

“Think you can avoid teaching your children this lesson? You can’t.”

On average, adults lie in about 1 in 5 social interactions. Unless you’re prepared to become hyperaware and hypersensitive to your environment and interactions with others, it’s just a normal, everyday occurrence we all take for granted. There’s no getting around it.”

While considered to somewhat “kookie”, Diogenes was well known for his cynicism. He displayed this by carrying around a lantern in daylight, looking for an honest man The link mentions “Greek honesty”. Today, we all “know” that particular groups are known to be outright liars: gypsies, the Travellers, etc. and to be skeptical when doing business w/ them.

I abhor dishonesty.
I am well known for MY honesty.
I am somewhat “mystified” by how easily ppl of mild acquaintance tend to be very trusting of me. My guess is that they are so adept at spotting lies, they are able to not fit me into that mold and therefore see that I am being honest.

I had a psychiatrist (returned to MD to treat patients of accident liability…more money in it than psychiatry) who was treating me for a whiplash neck injury tell me that I was “too honest”.
It took me a long time to find a friend (a wife) that appreciated honesty as much as do I.
I just couldn’t reconcile a relationship where one lies to their best friend. How good of a human bond can be established based on supicion of lying? If “caught” in ONE lie, from that point on…even the truth becomes constantly suspect.

So, I would amend Logan P. Smith’s quote to:
Human nature being what it is,
even always telling the truth will likely still have you be seen as a liar.
Meaning, that ESPECIALLY when one is always truthful, such a condition is considered so rare that a person telling the truth just can’t be actually doing it and should obviously be even more suspect of lying.

In short, being honest is somewhat analogous to the old saying: If you can’t say something nice…don’t say anything at all.

Well, perhaps: If you can’t tell the truth…don’t say anything at all.

BTW, one can “lie” by omission of truth as well as commission of a lie.

 
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New quote:

“He who does not understand your silence will probably not understand your words.”

~Elbert Hubbard

 
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Nothing for this one?

 
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Well anyone who does not understand your actions would not understand what you stand for or your pains, which I believe symbolizes silence and words probably representing your behavior or motives. Its Kinda implying some sort of empathic relationship is needed to fully understand a person.

Another interpretation is that if one is so secluded from social interactions one becomes a hermit, or worse a troglodyte and it would make it difficult to connect with another.

 
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Originally posted by Dartval:

New quote:

“He who does not understand your silence will probably not understand your words.”

~Elbert Hubbard

This quote reminds me of another one.
It is not so much what he says, but what he doesn’t say that is important.

But, I don’t think that quite fits Hubbard’s meaning.

The best I can come up w/ on it is: CONTRAST.
If one can’t understand the duality of contrast, they won’t be able to FULLY appreciate only one of the two aspects. One can’t fully appreciate & understand day w/out having the same for night.

Hubbard’s quote might be better understood had he put the FULLY in it: “He who does not understand your silence will probably not FULLY understand your words.”

Hubbard demonstrates this clarity when he said: A friend is someone who knows all about you and still loves you.

 
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I would consider it as saying that a person who does not understand why you choose to speak when you choose to speak and why you remain silent when you choose to remain silent, will not understand the full import of what you say when you do elect to speak.

They will not grasp the full importance of the issue, certainly to you, and are unlikely to consider your words carefully.

 
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Sometimes, I do not reply to idiotic statements from people to maybe show them that what they said was beyond ridiculous. Although it hardly works. Perhaps this experience can relate to the quote. But I am not certain.

 
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New quote:

“Your intellect may be confused, but your emotions will never lie to you.”

~Roger Ebert


RIP Roger Ebert, 1942-2013

 
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is that a bit similar to trusting your gut kinda thing?

 
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While I’m a fan of Ebert…this quote isn’t all that good I feel. I’m sure many of us know of times when we trusted our emotions in a situation and then found out it was wrong to of trusted them. Basically, if emotions never lie, then they can always be trusted…hence I feel this quote is flawed.

 
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Flabby, I think where ya’re “missing the point” is the very word that you & docuhenorris both used: TRUST.

Just because one can have A trust in something that never lies does not mean that one should in turn then trust it to be the best course of action. Allowing emotion to be a huge or main factor in our behavior—over that of our intellect—can very often be disastrous. At the very least, including emotion will certainly give our behavior a particular “flavouring”….which isn’t necessarily bad.

I see the quote’s second part as having the emotional factor I describe above.
I see the first part as being the often strong confusion that comes into play as one addresses that base instinctual feeling of emotion and how it fits into the reality of consequences wrought by using only emotion as our life-guide. The concept of being on the horns of a dilemma might represent this.

Our emtions tell us how we TRULY FEEL about something.
But, our intellect tells us what we should PROBABLY DO about it.

But, Freud’s concept of id, ego, & super ego really explains all of this very nicely.
From the link:
Id, ego and super-ego are the three parts of the psychic apparatus defined in Sigmund Freud’s structural model of the psyche; they are the three theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction mental life is described. According to this model of the psyche, the id is the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends ]emotions]; the super-ego [altruism?] plays the critical and moralizing role; and the ego [intellect] is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego.1 The super-ego can stop you from doing certain things that your id may want you to do.2

 
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Ok Karma, I get what you are saying and I think you are right that even if ‘something’ never lies that it doesn’t automatically make it ‘trustable’. I suppose I also came from the angle that emotions are sometimes ‘misinterpreted’ by the owner of those emotions, and I guess then again it’s not the emotions that are wrong but the individual not fully understanding them.

So, ok…I guess the quote is not as bad as what I first thought. :)

Although

Our emtions tell us how we TRULY FEEL about something.
is not accurate, as ideas such as ‘double think’ and ‘cognitive dissonance’ prove. Although once again I could be wrong. as they don’t really involve emotions as such, but ideas held personally..sigh.

On a sidenote, it’s a shame to have lost such a good critic in Ebert. I respected his opinions and reviews and used them to help myself find many many good movies that otherwise I would never of experienced.

 
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You may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but emotions are not scaled on knowledge, but rather rated on the actions, words and decisions you make based on them.

A fool doesn’t need an IQ of 1000 to know he’s in love, or if he’s depressed, or if he’s happy and so on.

 
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New quote:

“We must not demean life by standing in awe of death.”

~David Sarnoff

 
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Originally posted by Dartval:

New quote:

“We must not demean life by standing in awe of death.”

~David Sarnoff

Maybe it’s because I have 67 years already “under my belt” (and plan to add 30 more), but for me this is a no-brainer.

We are ALL going to die.
Very few of us know when.

Some ppl say to live each day like it was your last.
Well, the possibility of this being true exists.
BUT, the LIKELIHOOD of it is obviously extremely small.

We all carry the knowledge that we’re going to die.
But, to allow that knowledge to be a burden is indeed to demean life…
and, can only interfere w/ ones ability to live each day as fully as possible.
Then, when the Grim Reaper taps ya on the shoulder and says “let’s go”…ya can leave a full rich life behind,,,,,hopefully, one that many will remember fondly.

Live your life w/ verve & elan.
Make a promise to yourself to learn, grow, progress, love yourself & others deeply, admit transgressions.

Dum vivimus vivamus