Quote Discussion, Current quote: “Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.” page 2

815 posts

Flag Post

Well, that system obviously doesn’t work very well. A punishment that doesn’t have any relation to my actions and that I can’t even imagine is not only ineffective but also extremely unfair. And it is a punishment, since people (according to the teachings) get sent to hell if they sin.

In essence, in my opinion this quote is just semantics to make sense of something that simply doesn’t make sense.
Question: who is this Jun’ya Ota?

 
Flag Post

I think it is quite clear in meaning. Punishing sinners is no use. They’re dead, and aren’t given a chance of redemption within my knowledge, so are essentially nothing in the great scheme of things. But stopping people from sinning and making them go to the heaven of their choice seems to me what the proprietor of said heaven would want, as it would keep down the the sin and “Evil” in existance by spreading this rumour of hell, instead of just feeding millions of people into hell constantly, this rumour convinces them to not sin and perhaps avoid this hell. So, you don’t even need a hell. Just tell everyone that horrible things will happen if they sin, and they won’t so much, just as a deity may want it. So I can explain why a deity would like this system, and seriously, unless said deity is a sadist, there isn’t much point in punishing the wicked, as they have no purpose after death.

 
Flag Post

So it’s a lie to manipulate people into not doing things that this deity doesn’t want them to do for some reason?
(tiny bit provocative wording)

 
Flag Post

Current quote answer:
A teacher that likes giving Fs is a VERY bad teacher…
A teacher that never gives Fs is not much better.
A student must know he can get an F for misbehavior, but that’s not what his teacher wants.
A GOOD student is the one who works to get an A, not to avoid an F.
Accomplishment is the goal, failure is the fear.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by EPR89:


Question: who is this Jun’ya Ota?

This quote, believe it or not, was said by a character from a video game. I attempted to find a real world source, but couldn’t, so I assumed that the man who created the game, Jun’ya Ota, was the real world source. (he is much better known by his pseudonym, ZUN)

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Dartval:

Thanks.



Originally posted by somebody613:

Current quote answer:
A teacher that likes giving Fs is a VERY bad teacher…
A teacher that never gives Fs is not much better.
A student must know he can get an F for misbehavior, but that’s not what his teacher wants.
A GOOD student is the one who works to get an A, not to avoid an F.
Accomplishment is the goal, failure is the fear.

Generally I agree with what you just said.
The thing is, I don’t see why certain things that are considered a sin in some religions are misbehaviour and why something like spending the afterlife in hell should be an adequate consequence.
To me some of these sins could be compared to getting an F for writing a good essay on a topic that the teacher doesn’t agree with, and then he refuses to explain his reasoning.

 
Flag Post

I think that the concept of Hell helps people be “good”. It doesn’t work for everyone, but people who sincerely believe in a good and bad afterlife are motivated by this belief to be good people.

 
Flag Post

“Hell does not exist to punish sinners. Hell exists to ensure that no one sins.”

Wouldn’t this kind of be like saying—Jail exists, but only to scare people; no one actually goes there.

 
Flag Post

EPR
Well, I’m Jewish.
Judaism does NOT have an eternal Hell, so you question makes little sense to my belief. :D
Even more, and I tried to explain it, the sins one does, MUST later on lead him to IMPROVEMENT, even higher than before the sin.
That’s TRUE repentance – not just stop getting Fs, but actually strive for As.
This very idea is CONTRARY to eternal punishment (WITHOUT later striving for accomplishment).
Thus, from the Jewish point of view “it’s never too late, even when you think it is”.
There are KNOWN cases that real lowlifes and murderers CHANGED 180 degrees and became really GOOD people.
This again contradicts the notion of “once a sinner, forever a sinner”.
That’s my answer to the topic.

TN
Good example.
Those who do GO there, are those who CHOSE so.
Blaming it on the POLICE, is the same as blaming G-d for Hell.

 
Flag Post

First things first: I was Christian, so the only religions I have deeper insight to are the Christian ones (Protestants and Catholics) and the stuff I’m posting here is based on that background.



Originally posted by Dartval:

I think that the concept of Hell helps people be “good”. It doesn’t work for everyone, but people who sincerely believe in a good and bad afterlife are motivated by this belief to be good people.

I would argue that this is in some way not a sincere reason to be good. Ideally, people should be good because they like helping people, not because they are afraid of punishment in case they don’t. The way I understood it (please, someone correct me if I am wrong here) the first ones who really used the concept of a hell to “make people good” was the church. Originally it was just either you go to heaven and get to spend eternity with God (^3^) or you die and it’s over.

 
Flag Post

The mere concept that there is punishment creates the problem. The idea that evil exists creates evil. I would think that the world would be much better if there wasn’t a concept of punishment for doing bad deeds, as contradictory as that may seem to popular philosophy. To put restrictions on actions and thoughts, then classify them as “good” or “bad” is liable to create the problem it was purposed to prevent in the first place.

 
Flag Post

EPR
JEWISH sources teach that EVERYONE gets “Above” sooner or later.
The “later” is proportional to the time one needs to be “cleansed” in PURGATORY (not HELL in the common sense).
Normal (average) people don’t need more than a YEAR, though.
Good people definitely even less.
And the aspect that contradicts your last post (before edited) is, that the “cleansing” involves YOU judging YOURSELF, just with the “truth glasses” on.
NOBODY is judging you, except YOU YOURSELF, but honestly and truthfully. “Objectively”. :D

slasher
A very deep and philosophical problem, basically revolving around the idea of free choice.
The only TRUE answer we can give, G-d knows better.
Which doesn’t give one the right to dismiss it as “nonsense” (like some would be eager to do).

 
Flag Post

Thanks for that post, somebody613. Definitely helped me to better understand your points so far.

 
Flag Post

EPR
No prob.
What exactly you mean, though?
(If you’d like to expand…)

 
Flag Post

Mostly how you see the concept of purgatory. It doesn’t seem to be that different from Catholicism, but if I got it right it is more about personal development than being punished for the sins in your life on Earth until you are somehow purified by that. That whole concept always seemed very awkward to me. As if God had to break your will before you were admitted into the cool kids club. If my parents had baptised me to be a Catholic the first thing I would have done before giving up religion would probably have been to convert to Protestantism, due to teachings like that.

 
Flag Post

EPR
Not sure you got it right, as I see.
I’ll repeat then.
1. There’s no ETERNAL “Hell”.
The (VERY few specific ones, if any, it’s unclear though) individuals that were truly “locked away” for “eternity”, still are “cleansed”, not punished per se.
2. When someone dies, he/she is shown his/her life as a “movie”, as if it’s someone ELSE’s life (you don’t know that it’s yours, no cheating allowed :D).
He/she then JUDGES his/her OWN life, deciding the “verdict”.
You see, the only one to blame for a bad verdict – is YOURSELF.
Like a wise man said: “Get used to judging people favorably in this life, so you’ll judge YOURSELF favorably afterwards”.
(VERY STRONG point, isn’t?)
3. If the verdict implies cleansing, the soul is put “somewhere” (in an unknown spiritual “place”), where it goes through “cleansing” – what EXACTLY it is, no one knows, but it’s NOT “punishment” per se.
Like again a wise man said: “Embarrassment is 1/60 of purgatory”, implying the thing I said before – when the soul is constantly shown its previous mistakes, it HURTS.
You need no “devils” to “broil” you – your own “consciousness” is perfectly enough to bring you “hell”. :D
Why?
Cause when you see the TRUTH, and compare it to your ACTIONS
You got the point, I hope.
4. Just final comment.
a. It’s not G-d or devils that punish you – it’s you yourself, by seeing how stupid you were to behave like you did.
b. It’s limited, usually quite short, and basically never eternal. But MAY be very long, in VERY specific cases.
c. It’s not a punishment “of the angry dude with a stick” – but rather you must go through dealing with your mistakes, and then you’re free to enter G-dliness, with “a clean consciousness”. :D

Sorry for a longish post. :D

 
Flag Post

I see the point, but in the other hand… Wouldnt a good God want people that would serve him not out of fear of punishment, nor desire of a reward, but because they know it is the right thing to do?

Therefore, shouldnt he have NOT told us about hell at all?

 
Flag Post

“Hell does not exist to punish sinners. Hell exists to ensure that no one sins.”
My opinion: The Existence of Hell is necessary in terms of eternity. If it could be analyzed properly who’s going to contribute negatively to the chain of interactions, risking the whole chain of interactions to stop, future society could reliably decide to lock the person away forever.
This is based on my believe that in the future people are going to figure out how to live forever, everyone would be resurrected from their deaths maybe because one person is not complete without the other, and the future society would figure out ways to control power so big in the universe they must be really careful not to make grave mistakes, and that Jesus is the lamb of God died in the Cross to save humans from eternal death.

 
Flag Post

axl
You need your pink glasses removed, dude. :D
If WITH the Hell idea, we’re still SO BAD, imagine what would’ve be WITHOUT
Similarly, let’s just abolish JAILS and JUSTICE

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

axl
You need your pink glasses removed, dude. :D
If WITH the Hell idea, we’re still SO BAD, imagine what would’ve be WITHOUT
Similarly, let’s just abolish JAILS and JUSTICE

But here is the point. I never said hell wouldnt exist… Just he wouldnt tell us about it.

AS for jails and justice, that is a totally different situation. Hell doesnt exist to punish a specific action, but to decide what will be the fate of the person, basing on the entirety of its behavior. And jail, at least theorically, doesnt exist as a mean to punish( Even because, the deed is done ), but as a mean of rehabilitation? It fails? Yes. Hard? Yes. Is it more efficient as a punishment then as a mean of rehabilitation? Yes, no doubt. But this doesnt change the purpose of its design…

 
Flag Post

axl
I’d switch hell and jail in your post, according to what I think about them both. :D
BTW, there’s NO JAIL in the biblical punishment (human earthly justice) system.
Only capital punishment (hard as hell to apply, which many don’t know), lashes/flogging and a fine system (mainly to retribution of misdeeds, like theft or so).
No JAIL, which I’d call the “earthly hell”, without any positive accomplishment (the ones that do happen, are NOT due to being in jail).
Oh, I forgot the ONLY “as if jail” situation:
If someone killed BY ACCIDENT (and there are witnesses to it), he/she had to go to a specific “city of refuge”, until the High Priest’s death (could be a day, or 70 years, his/her “luck”).
But!
He/she wasn’t CONFINED to a CELL – to the extent, that the law says “if he had a teacher, the TEACHER is EXILED WITH HIM”!
To make his life EASIER (poor teacher, but that’s another topic, probably “bad student” one), not WORSE.
Now, compare it to TYPICAL jails.
OK, in 21 century SOME jails are turning into almost resorts, which is kinda funny, but throughout the ages, jails were the WORST place to live, and certainly bred WORSE criminals than before entering them…

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

axl
I’d switch hell and jail in your post, according to what I think about them both. :D
BTW, there’s NO JAIL in the biblical punishment (human earthly justice) system.
Only capital punishment (hard as hell to apply, which many don’t know), lashes/flogging and a fine system (mainly to retribution of misdeeds, like theft or so).
No JAIL, which I’d call the “earthly hell”, without any positive accomplishment (the ones that do happen, are NOT due to being in jail).
Oh, I forgot the ONLY “as if jail” situation:
If someone killed BY ACCIDENT (and there are witnesses to it), he/she had to go to a specific “city of refuge”, until the High Priest’s death (could be a day, or 70 years, his/her “luck”).
But!
He/she wasn’t CONFINED to a CELL – to the extent, that the law says “if he had a teacher, the TEACHER is EXILED WITH HIM”!
To make his life EASIER (poor teacher, but that’s another topic, probably “bad student” one), not WORSE.
Now, compare it to TYPICAL jails.
OK, in 21 century SOME jails are turning into almost resorts, which is kinda funny, but throughout the ages, jails were the WORST place to live, and certainly bred WORSE criminals than before entering them…

Errr, are we talking about the same Bible here?

 
Flag Post

@axlkoegoskyeg
Only the Old Testament, the lake of fire is in Revelation new testament.
Edit: Plus the Judaism religion’s interpretation I suppose.

 
Flag Post

HUH?!?
It’s the figure of speech, PEOPLE!

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Dartval:

I think that the concept of Hell helps people be “good”. It doesn’t work for everyone, but people who sincerely believe in a good and bad afterlife are motivated by this belief to be good people.

But only “good” People as the moral-system they connect with Hell dictates them to be. Which as such moral-system are subjective and far from perfect, means the system can also produce quite a number of “good” mass murderers, torturers and just plain assholes.