All non jewish christian religions: Are their followers going to Hell? page 4

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@somebody613
You know the actions demanded on us? Hate your family and follow Jesus, Sell your assets and follow Jesus, nvm people’s opinion, follow Jesus. Hate your family as in prioritize the kingdom of God over the idea of “family”. The idea of family is you have to prioritize your family’s interest. But Jesus teach if your family wants to kill and rob people, don’t do it. If your family wants to deny God don’t do it.

Jesus came not to bring peace, (currently), but to bring sword that separates Father and son, son from Father. If the father refused Jesus and the son accepts Jesus there would be a separation, and it applies otherwise. Ultimately when God abolish evil, that’s when humans could acquire true peace, that’s unity with other humans, because humans that are not peaceful have all been abolished to hell. You can’t bring peace to the world by making peace with unpeacefulness and the fact is unpeacefullness has its influence in the world.

Therefore its hard, for me its hard to be a true follower of Jesus, I’m still trying and asking God to help me on this.

 
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Sleep
You see, it’s all about “accept” aka “believe” – and leads to FIGHTS.
Also, you still condemn people to be “abolished” to Hell, as in “no way to return”.
As of peace, true peace must first be in YOU, and only then you can see the peace in OTHERS, to create the peace between you and them.
FORCING peace leads to WAR.
And history is aplenty with examples, old and recent…
Also, I really dislike the formulation of following ANYONE but G-d Himself, don’t you agree that it sounds weird?
You see, Christians are (sometimes) too much into “following J.”, to the extent of basically forgetting about following G-d…
And J. is DEFINITELY not G-d (even if you consider him to be a “part” of Him, he’s still only a PART, like WE ALL ARE).
Or do you hold otherwise – and you accept the idea of a PHYSICAL “G-d”?
Sorry for sounding harsh, but such things require CLARITY

 
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Originally posted by Darkscanner:

I get that he though he was god, but did he ever pose any solid evidence? All I recall are cheap parlor tricks like turning water into wine, or making lots and lots of fish and bread sticks.

Okay, here’s some proof/evidence that Jesus really was who and what He said He was. I don’t think this was the question, but some people doubt that Jesus really existed. However, ask any historian, and they will tell you that Jesus did without a doubt live on this earth. Second, proof that Jesus died, and came back to life. Anyone that is not a Christian will agree with this statement: Jesus did not rise from the dead. THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE!!! They say that the story of Christ’s rising from the dead was merely a legend. Now, almost all historians agree that it takes several generations for a legend to be born. However, historians that have studied the Bible, atheist, Christian, or whatever else, conclude that, after studying the earliest known copies of the Gospels recording the “legend”, these documents are less than 10 years AFTER the crucifixion of Christ happened. (sorry, i guess i probably could have stated that sentence better :P) In other words, the earliest found documents recording the story of Christ’s resurrection were written WAY before they should have been, had the story been a legend. Therefore, they CAN’T be mere legends, for if they were mere myth, they would have been written about 60+ years later. So that is just ONE proof of why Christ is God.

 
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andude
The funny thing is, all the miracles that Christians are so enthusiastic about, have PLENTY of JEWISH “copies” from different times.
(Name me any, and I’ll bring you a similar Jewish one, hehehe… I’m serious!)
Does it mean, that ALL those Rabbis also were “G-d’s Sons”?
Well, all humans ARE, anyways, but you know what I’m talking about…

 
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@Somebody613
Jesus is God its God’s way to connect with us after the fall of humanity. Without connection to God Humans’ life will not be prioritized at all, including Enoch and the Prophet Elia. God became human to make the rule so that humanity is Godly. All of the connections before Jesus, from God to Adam, Abel, Noah, Jacob, and the people of Israel is to prepare for this connection.
Jesus is the completion of all the such work, now humanity could connect to God as one of Him. That’s why Christians refer to God as their Father.
This kind of response is often said in discussions concerning the trinity and maybe you’ve heard it repeatedly before.
Since Jesus is how God reveal himself to humanity, following Jesus is following God.

In terms of eternal hell, I think its going to be necessary. Why that’s going to be the case? I don’t know, it must be out of necessity, not out of subjective hate or something like that. We are not to condemn people in this life, we’re not to do that, that against Jesus’ teachings. It’s going to be His decision who’s going to be saved or not, and trust him those that are not going to be saved are those that really is eternally incompatible of the world that’s going to come.
Hell is a place of torment because of the absence of love. We feel comfort and enjoyment now because of the matters created by love. In hell there would be no love. And these people are going to be there because they simply just never going to be compatible in the world that’s going to come.

In response to miracles you may be bored in hearing this, its just the way it is. It’s not a copy. And Jesus living a life “in mimic of the bible” is because he’s there to finish what’s being prepared by God and the people of Israel His chosen. The people of Israel, we believe were chosen to prepare for the coming of Jesus by God.

 
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Sleep
1. Calm down and start using commas more, please…
I can’t read some of your sentences…
2. So is he or not?
As in “A=B”, not just “A=B+C+…”
You do understand, WHY I’m asking this, right?
Cause if “A=B”, then this “A” is way “weaker” than it is DEFINED typically.
As in, MORTAL, LIMITED and PHYSICAL – three definitions of what (TRUE) G-d SHOULDN’T BE…
“Human gods” are the Greek/Roman variety, not Biblical. :DDD
3. G-d is EVERYONE’s Father, as in Creator.
You need no divine features to be a son of G-d – all humans are automatically.
4. Hell as the absence of love (and truth), is actually what people make of THEIR LIVES here, in THIS world…
Quite so often…
5. I won’t be bored – I’ll just bring you at least one example on each miracle, but from the Jewish sources, with another person involved.
It’s quite funny for me, how Christians are enthusiastic by those miracles, while forgetting that they WEREN’T as unique as you’d think.
Or even as great as, say, those of Moses. :DDD
So, PLEASE, name me those that YOU think were “extraordinary” and proofs (to YOU personally).
6. As of the Jews, let’s just drop it, cause we have opposite views on the topic. :D

 
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1. I use comma all the TIME! (I laughed) Pardon my english then ok :).
2. Ok I’m still having 613 rules site on right now, so, if I’m going to go into the issue of trinity again… oh man. Maybe somebody else is nice enough to help me on this.
3. I know, what I mean is children as inheritors of God’s divinity.
4. We still have the internet, we still have the news, we still have eyes and ears, and many other things to interact with the truth and to product truthful information. So the absence of God manifest in a form of increasing entropy, in my opinion, but not in a form of existence, communication / information, and love.
5. No I won’t you’ve shown you’ve read or told of these miracles, we’re not claiming them to be the greatest stuffs, we claim the whole work, and how Jesus stayed true to fulfill what’s comissioned to him is great. This whole greatness embodied the whole work of God, ever since the fall of man, until Jesus. Can you stay without sin when you got beaten, slandered, falsely condemned, spat on, and everything else?
6. Ok if you say so, I hope there could be another opportunity to approach the issue from another angle :)

 
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I’m going to try to explain no. 2:
The form of spirit and how they occupy space is unknown. We know that God gave His breath to Adam and Adam became alive. So a spirit could manifest in different places but remain his identity. When you marry, you’d become one body with your wife, this is a symbol or embodiedment of how spirits work. Your permanent purpose is to maintain yourself, you can’t separate this from you without having yourself killed. But if you could have a permanent purpose of prioritizing God, and God’s permanent purpose to prioritize you, you’d become one with God. This purpose must be permanent and incorruptible, a husband could kill his wife, but God will not kill His Son.
I hope you could escalate this explanation because its my explanation of a divine. I don’t take it without all seriousness.

 
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Sleep 1. OK, sorry. :D 2. Er... WIKI? :DDD EDIT after reading your last post. You assume that G-d and the world are "separate" entities, which is false. Therefore, He can't TRULY "be" (limited) somewhere physically. Yes, we do speak of "G-d's Presence" in the Temple, but this doesn't mean, that the Temple (or any part of it) BECAME G-d. It only means, that His "attention" is "focused" there, kinda like a "best WiFi connection point". And again, seriously don't forget that the very idea was introduced at the time and place of Greeks/Romans, for whom physical "gods" was a norm (unlike for Jews). 3. Dude, THE problem of Christianity is the Greek/Roman influence, that is THE source for all this "DIVINE Son of G-d" mish-mash. The moment you let someone "acquire divinity" apart from G-d Himself, you get TWO "gods", not One "composite". This is where Christianity starts making no sense to JEWS (and that's why they rejected it) - while it made sense to GREEKS and other ancient pagans, with their "human-gods" (and that's why they accepted it). Sorry, but this the HISTORICAL truth... 4. Too philosophical for now, OKay? 5. Well, from what I've heard (and some personal experience), a typical missionary starts at "being hyped by the WOW miracles of J." - which makes me laugh actually, when compared to all the JEWISH miracles I've read about. I wasn't talking about sin - but who are you referring to, huh? 6. Well, I can link-quote you "THIS":http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Moshiach
As for Yeshua of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of Jeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Mohammed) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder." How is this? *The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws.* These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. *But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.*" Most of the Textual requirements concerning the Moshiach and what he will do is located within Isaiah, although it is mentioned in other prophets as well. The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26) FAILED Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) FAILED The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17) FAILED He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10) QUESTIONABLE The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d” (Isaiah 11:2) QUESTIONABLE or FAILED Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4) FAILED Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) UNFINISHED He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) UNFINISHED Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) NOT HIS ACTION and UNFINISHED He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8) FAILED There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) FAILED All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) FAILED The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) DID THE OPPOSITE He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7) DID THE OPPOSITE Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-5) DID THE OPPOSITE For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7) FAILED The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) UNFINISHED The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) FAILED Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) FAILED The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos FAILED He will then perfect the entire world to serve G-d together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9) FAILED Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33) FAILED He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) QUESTIONABLE He will take the barren land and make it abundant & fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9) FAILED
Funny, right? :DDD
 
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@Somebody613

3. No no 2 Gods but one I’ve explained it above. Spirits are forms unlike physical bodies where it can’t be united.

Hahaha thank God for the Internet. Thanks for the source as well.

@Somebody613,
He’s going to come the second time, abomination is still to come, he will defeat the old serpent and will achieve peace. That’s why He will be called the Prince of Peace.

 
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Sleep
The problem with the “second coming” is, it’s not mentioned anywhere in the Jewish sources.
So, in accordance with what Maimonides (and he was one of the main commentators, so he should know, you know :D), it’s either YES or NO, each time someone claims to be.
We had a few JEWISH “false Messiah” ones too, who failed for varied reasons.
By your token idea, we should await a whole CROWD of the “once failed, now again trying” Messiahs, which would be FUNNY.

Oh, and the “Final Mortal Kombat” is also a Christian thing, it doesn’t have CLEAR references in the Jewish texts. :D

I HATE THIS SITE’S STUPIDEST EVER EDITOR! GET A NORMAL ONE, LIKE ALL NORMAL SITES! GRRR!

 
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@somebody613
Zechariah 14: 9, The Lord will be the only one.
We know from Genesis before God created the sun, God had created light. So this is a sign that the whole world will perish. The event of the coming of the messiah will establish a new kingdom Daniel 2:44, Daniel 7. And in Daniel 9 we know that after Ezra the Anointed one will be smitten and people of the ruler will destroy the temple. So the kingdom in the first chapters would be established after the Anointed One got smitten. In Daniel 7: 13, the Anointed One will come from the clouds, we Christians interpreted this as an event that people can see. So the first coming, being born as a child from Betlehem, the second coming, appeared to come from the clouds.

Now again Zechariah 14: 9, The Lord will be the only one. The Lord will be everything. Haven’t everything came from the Lord already? But Christians believe that there are some that are not from the Lord, that is Satan and sinful Humans. Therefore the unity in God is real everything will be divine, and humans too will be the God (singular).
Idols of the world are not God. Even now before the new kingdom, they are already not the Lord. So I say, my interpretation that The Lord will be the only one is accurate.

Humans will become one with Jesus as Jesus is one with God. I don’t want to give the impression that Satan too are going to be one with the Lord. There will be Hell, a place that’s reserved for evil to be burned or disintegrated. So this place too is lovely and therefore Godly. Unprioritized Evil is Godly.

Add: Somebody613, enough for now man, you can reply but I won’t respond too soon. “In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin” Proverb 10:19

 
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Sleep
1. No, it’s the sign that G-d knew about photons that can be born outside stars. :D
2. Well, it DIDN’T, exactly my point.
It speaks about the REAL kingdom, as in the one of England.
3. Interestingly, Maimonides also refers to Daniel, but to mean the opposite than you do. :D
4. Um, tell this to the plethora of “atheists” on this very site, hmmm… :D
5. I think I already told my (=Jewish) view on Satan.
6. We already are IN G-d (like EVERYTHING is and was ever since, there CAN’T exist anything “outside of G-d”).
7. Just curious (and a bit slippery): what about the Jews, who don’t (and won’t) accept J.?
According to Christianity, there’s only 2 ways – either accept or be discarded.
But G-d promised the (historically proven) eternity of the Jewish nation – without ever mentioning their relationship with the Messiah (even the Jewish one).
So?

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

Sleep
Sorry to disappoint you, but my opinion is, it’s like 99.99% of all “Christians”.
Not that they’re “bad people”, but rather superficial, without TRUE inside faith…
They’re “cultural Christians”, as much as many Jews unfortunately also consider themselves to be “cultural Jews”, in both cases this means “I do nothing, but I still consider myself to be part of the group”.
That’s where the “action vs belief” becomes CRUCIAL – you can’t FAKE ACTIONS
All this doesn’t make them BAD, but this is the delusion they ALL are in – to be part of the group, without actually participating…
I’m very upset about it, but unfortunately, that’s what it is today…

Thank you for saying what I said before with more words.

 
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Sleep
Would you mind answering my above post, if you’d like? :D

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

Sleep
Would you mind answering my above post, if you’d like? :D

Sorry somebody613, no. Somebody else help me please :), Christians?

 
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Sleep
Whenever you’re ready. :D
And I don’t mind if someone else answers it, it wasn’t so much personal at you. :D

 
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Originally posted by andude2:
Originally posted by Darkscanner:

I get that he though he was god, but did he ever pose any solid evidence? All I recall are cheap parlor tricks like turning water into wine, or making lots and lots of fish and bread sticks.

Okay, here’s some proof/evidence that Jesus really was who and what He said He was. I don’t think this was the question, but some people doubt that Jesus really existed. However, ask any historian, and they will tell you that Jesus did without a doubt live on this earth. Second, proof that Jesus died, and came back to life. Anyone that is not a Christian will agree with this statement: Jesus did not rise from the dead. THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE!!! They say that the story of Christ’s rising from the dead was merely a legend. Now, almost all historians agree that it takes several generations for a legend to be born. However, historians that have studied the Bible, atheist, Christian, or whatever else, conclude that, after studying the earliest known copies of the Gospels recording the “legend”, these documents are less than 10 years AFTER the crucifixion of Christ happened. (sorry, i guess i probably could have stated that sentence better :P) In other words, the earliest found documents recording the story of Christ’s resurrection were written WAY before they should have been, had the story been a legend. Therefore, they CAN’T be mere legends, for if they were mere myth, they would have been written about 60+ years later. So that is just ONE proof of why Christ is God.

Bullshit.

Historians do not agree that there was no doubt that Jesus existed(since this would mean that direct and established artifacts of Jesus would have to be found) and the earliest fragments(were talking about very partial documents here) of the gospel are dated 100+ A.D.(more like 150 C.E.).
Also Legends do not need several generations to form. Though it helps, because Legends need the transporters and believers of the legend to believe that the things could have happened. So they need the audience to be ignorant of actual events(and other evidence against the legend).

If you want to disagree, please provide evidence for your statements: That all historians agree that Jesus did without live on this earth or that the earliest found documents of Christs resurrection were dated before 50 A.D:. Since there are a lot of shitheads out there who make this claim(especially from religious schools that.have no secular accreditation). Please provide peer reviewed sources in a scientific historical outlet.

 
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However, ask any historian, and they will tell you that Jesus did without a doubt live on this earth.

I laughed at this statement.

 
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we don’t worship jesus, but we follow what he has taught us. but yet again some people worship him _

 
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here is something i found that i thought was insightful. the info is all throughout the vid, so if you have the time, go ahead and just watch it all… and people, know reason to criticize other peoples’ beliefs… not trying to force my beliefs on y’all, just trying to give some insight into why I think there is a reasonable chance that the Bible is true, even from a secular standpoint. so, here’s the link

(i hope i did all the formatting right… if it looks weird, sorry!)

 
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There are millions of religions. Which one is the right one?

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:


You see, Christians are (sometimes) too much into “following J.”, to the extent of basically forgetting about following G-d…
And J. is DEFINITELY not G-d (even if you consider him to be a “part” of Him, he’s still only a PART, like WE ALL ARE).

Christian’s are supposed to follow “J”, because he is not only the son of God, but considered God himself (other Christians please correct me if this is wrong). The belief system states that none shall have eternal life but those that go through Jesus.

On another note, and not to derail the thread, but does anyone have an opinion on the religious recent bestseller called Love Wins ?

While it’s a really nice idea, I personally don’t think it’s quite in keeping with Christian beliefs, and the concept that there are consequences/Hell for certain actions.

 
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@JohnnyBeGood

The gospel is not a writing of the time of Jesus. The oldest remains we have of the Gospels are dated 100+ A.D.. At least 70 years after the supposed life time. And with correspondences i practically mean all writing of the time. You won´t find any decent reference to Jesus in the correspondence of the first century, especially in the region of Israel.

Update: Couldn’t find anyone that denied you up until now. I could find an interesting point though (but it took a WHILE to load in my computer)
http://powertochange.com/itv/spirituality/bible-is-unique11/

what do you think? the guy is Josh McDowell.

 
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Originally posted by Sleepallnight:

@JohnnyBeGood

The gospel is not a writing of the time of Jesus. The oldest remains we have of the Gospels are dated 100+ A.D.. At least 70 years after the supposed life time. And with correspondences i practically mean all writing of the time. You won´t find any decent reference to Jesus in the correspondence of the first century, especially in the region of Israel.

Update: Couldn’t find anyone that denied you up until now. I could find an interesting point though (but it took a WHILE to load in my computer)
http://powertochange.com/itv/spirituality/bible-is-unique11/

what do you think? the guy is Josh McDowell.

A big waste of time. Josh McDowell is not an historian and while does quote Sir William M. Ramsay, who was a great historian scholar of the early 19th sentry. He is not quoting a scientific piece of work but an opinion piece. A opinion not backed by research.
The claimed test of extra biblical evidence are a joke. And many claims are based on anonymous scholars claiming the bible was wrong in some point and then archaeological evidence disproving these anonymous scholars opinion on the bible quote in question.