Universal Healthcare

289 posts

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Hello people, I saw these forums and the nice topics you have here so I decided to register and have some nice debates about interesting things.

The topic that is on my mind right now is the universal healthcare.
Do you think it is a good social program for a country?

I personally think that poor people should be able to help themselves, I mean there are so many of them that they could just help each other on their own. Why do the rich people need to get involved? They are busy making money for the poor and keeping the economy up.

 
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Yeah, right. Let poor people perform open heart operations on poor people, who can’t afford going to a hospital.

That’ll solve the poor problem in no time…

 
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No, let the people who care about them pay the bills. .
If they are no use why should we invest into their health?

 
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Originally posted by egotheredundant:


If they are no use why should we invest into their health?

Because that’s the way America is. It tries to take care of it’s people.

 
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Wait, where’s the AX (rich people got into their position completely and fully from an equal position to the poor, and it is entirely a poor person’s fault that he is poor)? I cannot discuss, because you’re implicitly assuming this in the real world, which obviously is the opposite from true.

But, for the fun of it, I’ll perform and call Godwin’s Law: (A slightly modified) Hitler would have loved you.

 
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I lol’d

 
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Wait, where’s the AX (rich people got into their position completely and fully from an equal position to the poor, and it is entirely a poor person’s fault that he is poor)? I cannot discuss, because you’re implicitly assuming this in the real world, which obviously is the opposite from true.

But, for the fun of it, I’ll perform and call Godwin’s Law: (A slightly modified) Hitler would have loved you.

wow i never knew germans were on an american site
you are a nazi i looked up godwins law and its a nazi law which states that the internet argument is owned by hitler

 
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and now i say you are wrong

 
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read the thread title
it says ‘universal law’ which mean that its about THE UNIVERSE
not just america

 
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If rich people make money for the poor, why are they poor?

 
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I think people Should get everything for their own.These poor people Are too lazy and ask for rich peoples money. One of my uncles Begs another one of my uncles(they are brothers)For money, So does my aun’t.I’m somewhat rich, I own a stock in a company, And my taxes are Just so hard.I am not selfelish, I help poor people who are truly in need, But These libs just say i’m a troll and i’m selfelish.People need to get there facts strait.

 
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They are busy taking money from the poor and fucking the economy up.

fixed.

 
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Bobneson, two questions.

1. Are you somewhat rich because you own stock in a company? (ie. is it due to dividends, etc.)

2. Would you be willing to share the story of how you became somewhat rich?

 
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1. You’d need to be somawhat ignorant to assume I am talking about America in this thread.
2. The economy only works because rich people hire workers and make money circulate, without corporations there would be no industrialization and therefore you need them for the high standards you live in.

However, that does not mean that rich people should pay for you. Success does not come along with the responsibility to help those who did not work his way up for whatever reason.
There is a natural process called selection, working against it will only cause more problems and people will actually get harmed.
When valuable ressourses are wasted for people who will not bring any profit the ressourses spent are lost.
If we’d use them to invest into actually promising things society will benefit from it in the long run.

Also, comparing someone who killed a couple of million people with that is an insult for the victims of the holocaust, you should be ashamed.

 
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Originally posted by egotheredundant:

1. You’d need to be somawhat ignorant to assume I am talking about America in this thread.

Not really, since you didn’t specify which country you were talking about, nor did you take into account that many people in this site are from America, and most discussions are about America, unless specified otherwise.

Originally posted by ArgIax:

read the thread title
it says ‘universal law’ which mean that its about THE UNIVERSE
not just america

…Oh.

But my point about most people being from America still stands, and they mostly know about American economy, so that’s what they’re going to comment on.

2. The economy only works because rich people hire workers and make money circulate,

I’m pretty sure it’s a little more complicated than that.

without corporations there would be no industrialization and therefore you need them for the high standards you live in.

You’re assuming a lot of things right there.

However, that does not mean that rich people should pay for you.

You’re leaving a few important things out, right there.

Success does not come along with the responsibility to help those who did not work his way up for whatever reason.

You means reasons beyond his (or her) control?

There is a natural process called selection,

Oh hai, Social Darwinist.

working against it will only cause more problems and people will actually get harmed.

Yeah, let those poor fuckers suffer, it’s not like they are poor because of things that they had no control over.

When valuable ressourses are wasted for people who will not bring any profit the ressourses spent are lost.

You mean when people burn money?

If we’d use them to invest into actually promising things society will benefit from it in the long run.

Like fresh meat for the hungry, who we’ll then use as a resource for the rich’s gain.

Also, comparing someone who killed a couple of million people with that is an insult for the victims of the holocaust, you should be ashamed.

Wait, where did that happen?

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

Oh…

I think you missed his point.

Like completely missed it.

 
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As an English person I’m not licensed to tell you whats best for your country, but I’ll say with some confidence are health care and welfare was good for the country. People will actually call an ambulance without question when they see someone injured, the rich still stay plenty rich, our economy seems no worse for the lack of the non existent invisible hand, and the populace is actually very, very thankful for it.

No, some people CANNOT look after themselves, so yes it is far to ask for a small amount from people who can feed their families ten times over and still buy all the luxuries they could want.

Also the idea that all poor people deserve every hardship they get and all the rich people universally deserve everything without even the slightest need to help their country is absurd.

Healthcare also does not cause people to stop working or slacking off, it just stops people dying and being sick needlessly.

 
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what good to society is a sick workforce?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

what good to society is a sick workforce?

What good to society is a government that goes bankrupt?

 
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What good to society is a government that goes bankrupt?

what good to an online discussion is a non-argument?

you are suggesting that universal health-care would bankrupt a government eh? ok so then, two things: 1. a sick work-force is worse for a country. 2. the only industrialised nation without universal health care is the USA, and their government spends about as much tax dollars on health-care as the other nations. (it can’t be repeated enough)

 
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you are suggesting that universal health-care would bankrupt a government eh? ok so then, two things: 1. a sick work-force is worse for a country. 2. the only industrialised nation without universal health care is the USA, and their government spends about as much tax dollars on health-care as the other nations. (it can’t be repeated enough)

Alone would it? No. But, we already have a health care entitlement that will be broke in < 15 years. We have another, Social Security, that is ridiculously easy to fix that the politicians refuse to do anything about with a trust fund that politicians have already raided. We have a $16 trillion debt. We have trillion dollar deficits that seem to be the norm out of Washington. We simply can’t afford another entitlement that the CBO projects to cost $200b a year by 2019 (per: http://www.cbo.gov/publication/41877). I know I’m a heartless conservative, but people need to realize that there isn’t enough money for the federal government to provide everything to all Americans.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

What good to society is a government that goes bankrupt?

That’s the burning question for California right now.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
I know I’m a heartless conservative, but people need to realize that there isn’t enough money for the federal government to provide everything to all Americans.

Maybe the “heartless” factor is a result of the “ignorance or naive” factor. This seems to be a rather curious “problem” the “conservative” faction of the 99% has. The money IS there for America to be as “prosperous” as it should. The sad truth is that we’ve had some very, VERY bad “management” for some time now. A whoooole lot of “mistakes” made in many areas.

BUT, a nation that doesn’t take care of its WORKforce soon finds that it doesn’t “work” all that well anymore. It’s NOT just the healthcare system that is fucked here. Jobs being shipped overseas so the rich can get just that much richer.

Folks, there is what is called a “tipping point”….a point-of-no-return….an OH SHIT point. There are lots of estimates out there about when America will hit hers. Much like the “fall” of Rome….it won’t be a real “bang”,,,,,just a pathetic whimper as piece by piece, she slowly loses (sells off?) her assests to anyone who’ll give a dime for what hasn’t already been dumped to make some asshole just a weeeebit richer…..as he scooted off to live in a “nicer” place.

This gal wrote a pretty damned accurate Op-Ed that supports what I’ve just said:

The rest of us

Princeton University professor Cornel West and talk-show host Tavis Smiley were guests on CBS’ “Face the Nation” Sunday. They are the authors of the new book “The Rich and the Rest of Us.”

They noted that half of our population, 150 million, are wrestling with poverty. This includes the poor and the low-income earners who are but one or two paychecks from poverty.

Our nation has a spending priority. It is the military. The poor are insignificant. Both parties are guilty, and both are tied to big money.

West and Smiley had suggestions for improvement: Concentrate on jobs, education and housing; institute a progressive tax code; consider the needs of women and children first; and vastly shrink our highly overzealous incarceration record.

There is a greater concentration of poverty and incarceration in the South and in the larger cities, but Kansas is not immune.

Our country must not continue down this road of self-destruction. The rich and powerful have overextended their greed. We must have a more just distribution of wealth, or we will see a massive uprising of the oppressed. There is still time for change, but that time is short, and the clock is ticking.

BETH VANNATTA
Halstead

Corny is a kool dude. He knows his shit. I suggest ya read his book.

Beth is right, BOTH political parties are “guilty”….simply because both parties are little more than the lackies of the rich. A new Congressperson soon sees that if they are going to be “allowed to stay” in Washington AT ALL—w/ any hopes of doing even a weeeebit for “the folks back home”—they will have to “play ball” w/ the establishment. That establishment has for the last 100 years grown exponentially powerful—right along w/ the technological growth—to the point that it is ignorantly out of control and will implode itself because, just like the Terminator, being GREEDY is who it is….it is what it does.

Other countries are now begining to “wake up” to the oppression they’ve lived in. Well, they weren’t so much “asleep” as just unable to come together in order to coalease into a reasonable “revolutionary” entity to fight the “establishment”.

The “ESTABLISHMENT:”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-establishment The “Establishment” to these, and these anti-establishment activists was not simply the people of the older generation. Dictionary.com defines the establishment as “the existing power structure in society; the dominant groups in society and their customs or institutions; institutional authority”7, Merriam-Webster defines the words as “a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class”8 and The Free Dictionary defines it as “A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society.”9 Social critic and “people’s” historian Howard Zinn defines the establishment as “Republicans, Democrats, newspapers [and] television” in his book, A People’s History of the United States.10 Later Zinn calls out the “huge military establishment” which one could assume is part of his definition of the “Establishment.” In a chapter of the book that expresses Zinn’s political theory for the future he defines “the Establishment [as] that uneasy club of business executives, generals, and politicos.”

Want some more? Ya don’t think this is happening in America? Shit, ppl….there’s a name for it: Plutocracy (from Ancient Greek ploutos, meaning “wealth”, and kratos, meaning “power, rule”) is rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth.

What have I been telling ya all along? When there is a “human problem”….to find the cause & probably the solution, FOLLOW THE MONEY. Good ppl have little of it….“bad” ppl have tons of it. Amazing how they “works”….eh?

 
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In context or the US, universal health care will never pass because there is too much money at stake. The private health care monster is a 2.4 trillion dollar industry and is 17% of the US’ GDP, what’s even more interesting is that many private health insurance agencies like tennent health pay 0 taxes. Not to mention that they pretty much own Washington and its politicians. It would surprise me if there has ever been a president in the last few elections that hasn’t receive lots of money from private health companies. Yet private health care companies love to deny giving people money when they actually need it. The bottom line is that private healthcare industries are the biggest organized criminals in US history.

 
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Originally posted by jjuanksta:

Yet private health care companies love to deny giving people money when they actually need it. The bottom line is that private healthcare industries are the biggest organized criminals in US history.

I agree that private healthcare companies do operate in a highly profit-driven fashion. It’s like how thoroughly someone is screened before they are allowed to buy their own healthcare policy—the company has to insure that they will make money off this person, kind of like an investment gamble. But unlike the aforementioned gamble, a person often doesn’t have total control over their health and really needs the care—their life is all they have. It can be kind of a scary thing.