Universal Healthcare page 7

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(with the exceptions of Russia, China, Cuba (especially fucking Cuba), Spain, and Brazil…don’t know where the hell you got those from)

hmmm. as far as i know their health system can’t be much worse than the US’s, and in fact are sometimes said to be more efficient, especially considering their budget. i wasn’t talking about their economy.

The medical research done per persona in those countries is markedly lower than the amount done per persona in the US.

i’ll look into that, because i’ll bet that’s not true for many of those countries.

our GDP doesn’t suffer at the expense of socialized medicine, which, contrary to popular belief, is almost NEVER budget neutral

what does that even mean? i told you over and over, the US spends about the same amount of tax-money on health care as other nations, doubling the total expenditure per capita.

the government isn’t exactly the most efficient way to get things done. Thus, a lot of the socialized medicine budget (i.e.: 20-30%) is flushed down the goddamn toilet.

20/30% waste is a lot less than excessive payments in a free-market system.

Seriously (I don’t know if you live in the USA or not), just look at the shit the government already runs and tell me if it is a shining memorial to efficiency:
Public roads
DMV
FEMA
Social Security
Public Education

aren’t some of those state run? anyway, if this is the problem, then isn’t THIS the problem? isn’t THIS what you aught to be fixing?

why is your government so inefficitent taking care of it’s own population?
and mind you, they are incredibly efficient when taking care of military secrecy (until wikileaks). keeping stealth technologies a secret for some 20 years into service is massively impressive.
also mind you, that in the Netherlands, the government is fairly efficient at taking care of those things you mentioned, up until an elected right wing coalition fucks it up by privatising it.

punish people who are smarter than the rest by just taking their money

smarter??
now, tell me, how much more is someone that is smarter than someone else entitled to earn? 20%? 50%? 999900%?

I offered to buy her a one-way ticket to Germany and she walked off in a huff. I wonder why?

family? language barrier? just making some suggestions.

I’ve also had the same problem with Germans here in America. I just keep asking them “If you like your country so much, then why the hell did you come over here?

uhm…sight-seeing? every person i know that’s been to America has stories about both nice-people and dickheads, about massive cities and barren wastelands, but especially about massive poverty, and about a shodden state of some the surroundings. (mind you, we have no slums. none.)

Potentially, but private companies have more of an incentive to cut the fat than the government does since the government is spending someone else’s money whereas private companies increase profits if they are more efficient.

wow, wow, wow. hold the equivocation! “efficiency” of public fields is measured by how good it is for the public or consumer. “efficiency” of private fields is measured by how much profit it makes the producer.

the latter ALWAYS has a much worse efficiency in the former definition.

We already are the greatest country on the planet, and we don’t need your help to stay that way.

blatantly proving his point about arrogance there. any “greatest country on the planet” would not fuck up so bad to cause all these international conflicts, economic crisis…in fact we’ve been talking about government inefficiency…don’t you see the insanely retarded paradox of calling it “the greatest country on the planet” while discussing how it can’t do anything right?

moron.

You may be unpatriotic, Karma, but I am not. Unlike you, I am actually proud of my nation.

ugh! saying anything other than “Greatest Nation in the World” (which can be used to justify anything) means you are Unpatriotic, which means you are a Bad American, which means you are a Bad Person.

that sentiment right there is exactly what’s wrong with American culture. that’s exactly why everyone that’s not American or Jewish considers America to be pathetic.

 
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We already are the greatest country on the planet

And you wonder why I don’t take your replies seriously. Come on, are you really this deluded?

I’ve also had the same problem with Germans here in America. I just keep asking them “If you like your country so much, then why the hell did you come over here? Nobody’s holding a gun to your head.”

Huh, I thought most people there are simply children of children of their foreign ancestors, basically not allowing them much choice in where they ended up.

I’m saying that to continue to ask for more and more money from the wealthy when the federal government wastes hundreds of billions (that’s right, simply wastes it – it doesn’t go towards anything) is preposterous.

But this is not really the point I’m arguing about. I was, of course, replying to a known troll, but the mindset is still there, relatively. Here:

My taxes are paying for defense, schools, lighting, bridges, etc. – things that I am using either directly or indirectly so I feel that my tax money is being used on things that I use.

Rich people pay more, but use the same for many of these things. So, your money definitely isn’t used for your own gain alone. However, it’s true that the government can spend your money inefficiently or on the “wrong” things, which triggers the mindset even more.

In terms of helping the poor, I’m personally convinced that the money the wealthy give to charities that target the poor has far more of an impact than having the government spread it around.

It may be, but that’s not really the mindset I was targeting.

To relate this all to universal healthcare, the poor will be unable to afford it if they have to pay for it on their own. Universal healthcare doesn’t have to be free (as it isn’t here, and it’s a relatively good solution), but people definitely shouldn’t, as they can’t, pay the full price. A government taking the solution of letting everyone pay full price will lose the support of almost all poor people and only gain the support of almost all rich people.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by jhco50:

I don’t think you understand how inept American governments are.

Fixed for more accuracy.

Won´t waste my time on the rest.

Oh yeah, now you sound like my youngest daughters mother-in-law. Germany is so great, they are the most wonderful government in the world…blah, blah, blah. I offered to buy her a one-way ticket to Germany and she walked off in a huff. I wonder why?

I’ve also had the same problem with Germans here in America. I just keep asking them “If you like your country so much, then why the hell did you come over here? Nobody’s holding a gun to your head.”

YadaYada. You guys are the ones whining how Government is so inept, based on your experiences and claims about how bad your American Governments suck. If people go and accept your stories and evaluation(*) of how pathetic your governments are and point out thats not the case for other countries, then its all patriotic outrage. Thats really messed up. Trying to keep the cake and eating it.
Either your Governments are as pathetic as you claim and thus rank greatly below many other countries or your Governments are not as bad as you claim they are. Other countrys certainly won´t magically become pathetic just so that you can wine about how pathetic your government is and still feel patriotic superiority over the rest of the world.

*(and your the guys who always wine about how living in country makes one automatically a better expert on all internal issues regarding that country.)

Love your country, don’t trust the government.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
(with the exceptions of Russia, China, Cuba (especially fucking Cuba), Spain, and Brazil…don’t know where the hell you got those from)

hmmm. as far as i know their health system can’t be much worse than the US’s, and in fact are sometimes said to be more efficient, especially considering their budget. i wasn’t talking about their economy.

The medical research done per persona in those countries is markedly lower than the amount done per persona in the US.

i’ll look into that, because i’ll bet that’s not true for many of those countries.

our GDP doesn’t suffer at the expense of socialized medicine, which, contrary to popular belief, is almost NEVER budget neutral

what does that even mean? i told you over and over, the US spends about the same amount of tax-money on health care as other nations, doubling the total expenditure per capita.

the government isn’t exactly the most efficient way to get things done. Thus, a lot of the socialized medicine budget (i.e.: 20-30%) is flushed down the goddamn toilet.

20/30% waste is a lot less than excessive payments in a free-market system.

Seriously (I don’t know if you live in the USA or not), just look at the shit the government already runs and tell me if it is a shining memorial to efficiency:
Public roads
DMV
FEMA
Social Security
Public Education

aren’t some of those state run? anyway, if this is the problem, then isn’t THIS the problem? isn’t THIS what you aught to be fixing?

why is your government so inefficitent taking care of it’s own population?
and mind you, they are incredibly efficient when taking care of military secrecy (until wikileaks). keeping stealth technologies a secret for some 20 years into service is massively impressive.
also mind you, that in the Netherlands, the government is fairly efficient at taking care of those things you mentioned, up until an elected right wing coalition fucks it up by privatising it.

punish people who are smarter than the rest by just taking their money

smarter??
now, tell me, how much more is someone that is smarter than someone else entitled to earn? 20%? 50%? 999900%?

I offered to buy her a one-way ticket to Germany and she walked off in a huff. I wonder why?

family? language barrier? just making some suggestions.

I’ve also had the same problem with Germans here in America. I just keep asking them “If you like your country so much, then why the hell did you come over here?

uhm…sight-seeing? every person i know that’s been to America has stories about both nice-people and dickheads, about massive cities and barren wastelands, but especially about massive poverty, and about a shodden state of some the surroundings. (mind you, we have no slums. none.)

Potentially, but private companies have more of an incentive to cut the fat than the government does since the government is spending someone else’s money whereas private companies increase profits if they are more efficient.

wow, wow, wow. hold the equivocation! “efficiency” of public fields is measured by how good it is for the public or consumer. “efficiency” of private fields is measured by how much profit it makes the producer.

the latter ALWAYS has a much worse efficiency in the former definition.

We already are the greatest country on the planet, and we don’t need your help to stay that way.

blatantly proving his point about arrogance there. any “greatest country on the planet” would not fuck up so bad to cause all these international conflicts, economic crisis…in fact we’ve been talking about government inefficiency…don’t you see the insanely retarded paradox of calling it “the greatest country on the planet” while discussing how it can’t do anything right?

moron.

You may be unpatriotic, Karma, but I am not. Unlike you, I am actually proud of my nation.

ugh! saying anything other than “Greatest Nation in the World” (which can be used to justify anything) means you are Unpatriotic, which means you are a Bad American, which means you are a Bad Person.

that sentiment right there is exactly what’s wrong with American culture. that’s exactly why everyone that’s not American or Jewish considers America to be pathetic.

1. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/cuba_has_better_health_care_th.html
Right. Whatever. Because Countries like Cuba and Russia have such a great track record of telling the truth.
2. Good luck.
3. It means that, left to a free market, medical care does not impose itself on the federal government. It does not nibble away at the GDP (directly at least). Socialized medicine, on the other hand, does just that. And I just don’t think this country, at this point in time, can afford another program that takes away from the GDP. I mean, look at the Brits. They’re CONSTANTLY looking for ways to cut spending on their healthcare, as they realize that it’s expensive as hell.
4. Prove it.
5. Trust me. We’ve tried fixing our government. It doesn’t work very well. There’s no way in bloody hell a government can reach out and accurately meet the needs of everyone in the United States. We are a MASSIVE country. Everybody in each specific area has their own specific needs (and our populace has grown progressively more spoiled, fat, and whiny over the past few decades). Asking the government to efficiently do anything is borderline impossible. Thus, I don’t trust the government to do a damn thing correctly.
6. You, as well as everybody else, don’t seem to understand what the term “PATRIOTISM” even fucking means. God. It appalls me. You don’t seem to understand that no matter what my country may do, no matter how much other countries may hate it, and no matter what happens to it, I will still remain proud of the United States. And a nation is NOT just composed of its government. A nation is composed of its people, of its culture, and of its values. But I guess the fundamental issue here is that you don’t understand why I say that my nation is the greatest. Of course, the matter is highly debatable, of course there are some issues with that statement. But I don’t care. I live here. I’m proud of the United States of America, and I truly believe it is the best place on Earth. It is an opinion. And, like all opinions, it can be debated. But, quite frankly, I don’t give a damn.
7. Lol. I don’t know why the hell you’re so offended by this. It’s actually very funny. I never said that if you don’t believe America is greatest country that means you’re a bad person. I just said (somewhat implied, mind you) that if you constantly criticize without offering any solutions, then you need to get the fuck out. That’s all. Simmer. Simmer.

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

We already are the greatest country on the planet

And you wonder why I don’t take your replies seriously. Come on, are you really this deluded?

I’ve also had the same problem with Germans here in America. I just keep asking them “If you like your country so much, then why the hell did you come over here? Nobody’s holding a gun to your head.”

Huh, I thought most people there are simply children of children of their foreign ancestors, basically not allowing them much choice in where they ended up.

I’m saying that to continue to ask for more and more money from the wealthy when the federal government wastes hundreds of billions (that’s right, simply wastes it – it doesn’t go towards anything) is preposterous.

But this is not really the point I’m arguing about. I was, of course, replying to a known troll, but the mindset is still there, relatively. Here:

My taxes are paying for defense, schools, lighting, bridges, etc. – things that I am using either directly or indirectly so I feel that my tax money is being used on things that I use.

Rich people pay more, but use the same for many of these things. So, your money definitely isn’t used for your own gain alone. However, it’s true that the government can spend your money inefficiently or on the “wrong” things, which triggers the mindset even more.

In terms of helping the poor, I’m personally convinced that the money the wealthy give to charities that target the poor has far more of an impact than having the government spread it around.

It may be, but that’s not really the mindset I was targeting.

To relate this all to universal healthcare, the poor will be unable to afford it if they have to pay for it on their own. Universal healthcare doesn’t have to be free (as it isn’t here, and it’s a relatively good solution), but people definitely shouldn’t, as they can’t, pay the full price. A government taking the solution of letting everyone pay full price will lose the support of almost all poor people and only gain the support of almost all rich people.

1. Hahahaha! See, the funny thing in that post, Dark, is that you appear to imply that I actually care as to whether or not you take my replies seriously. I don’t. Are YOU really that deluded? And also: Prove me wrong.
2. I’m referring to Germans (as in actual ethnic Germans) that moved over here for whatever reason. They seem to carry this “air of superiority” with them at all times. It’s quite annoying.

 
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Prove me wrong.

This proves me right. A claim needs to be proven. That’s your claim. So, tell me your evidence.

I’m referring to Germans (as in actual ethnic Germans) that moved over here for whatever reason. They seem to carry this “air of superiority” with them at all times. It’s quite annoying.

I have no idea why they recently moved to America, but you can’t assume all of them had a choice. Germany may still be the best for them, but America a necessary evil at the moment.

 
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It means that, left to a free market, medical care does not impose itself on the federal government. It does not nibble away at the GDP (directly at least). Socialized medicine, on the other hand, does just that.

what nonsense. seriously, if people believe that rubbish, no wonder socialism is so disliked. if you pay through taxes, your clearly not eating away GDP any more then when you’re paying corp heads. both ways cost people money. both ways have the money end up with other people. one way just has a lot more money end up elsewhere.

4. Prove it.

prove the complete and totally obvious?

5. Trust me. We’ve tried fixing our government. It doesn’t work very well. There’s no way in bloody hell a government can reach out and accurately meet the needs of everyone in the United States. We are a MASSIVE country. Everybody in each specific area has their own specific needs (and our populace has grown progressively more spoiled, fat, and whiny over the past few decades). Asking the government to efficiently do anything is borderline impossible. Thus, I don’t trust the government to do a damn thing correctly.

so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

You don’t seem to understand that no matter what my country may do, no matter how much other countries may hate it, and no matter what happens to it, I will still remain proud of the United States.

the very definition of complacent obstinance.
seriously, this is just so stupid. admitting to stay blind for the facts, and that you would let the US slip to whatever depths because you refuse to be critical of it.
you can’t be more stupid then that.

And a nation is NOT just composed of its government. A nation is composed of its people, of its culture, and of its values.

then why did you use the whole “greatest nation” rubbish in a retort to comments about the US governmetn eh?

also if it truly is a democracy, the governmetn is only a product of it’s culture and values.
also, culture and values can have flaws, as history have definitely showed. but your attitude would never allow improvement in this field.

I just said (somewhat implied, mind you) that if you constantly criticize without offering any solutions, then you need to get the fuck out.

why? you just try to figure out where we’d have been without criticism. kay?

 
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so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

It is, into 50 states. Each state should figure out their social programs themselves, not a top-down order from Washington. It’s called federalism.

 
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Scoop, I think you should read up on the difference between “patriotism” and “nationalism”.
That word…I do not think it means what you think it means.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

It is, into 50 states. Each state should figure out their social programs themselves, not a top-down order from Washington. It’s called federalism.

yeah, please note that that was a response to scoopolard, who wouldn’t agree with that either, because he doesn’t trust state governments either as he basically said before.

now, you are saying we should socialise health care but make it state run. it’s a bit out of context, but fine, so do that.

also i don’t like the US’s state devisions, because they are drawn with a measure lint accross a map. the borders make no sense whatsoever from neither a geographic nor a culturologic perspective. hence why it’s very difficult for people to identify with their state, instead rediculously identifying with what is almost an entire continent.

borders are suposed to follow rivers and mountain lines (and such natural boundaries) and group people based on shared cultural, historical connections. state borders don’t do that.

also “federalism” implies the member states are subservient to the collective government.

 
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Actually, there were all sorts of geopolitical factors that resulted in the current shape of the states in the US.
There are books about this.

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:

You may be unpatriotic, Karma, but I am not.

And, pray tell, just what makes YOU think I to be “unpatritoic”? Do I not ascribe to YOUR idea of partiotism? Is YOUR idea the ONE that all should do so? Are YOU now some form of a god who devines what is so and what is not?

Unlike you, I am actually proud of my nation.

AND…again, what makes YOU think I am not “actually proud” of my nation? Do YOU think you know me so well as to be able to acertain such things? Do YOU believe yourself able to even understand MY concepts of what I deem worthy of pride? Interesting.

I take pride in what we do.

I, also, take pride….IN A LOT OF WHAT WE DO. Lately, I find great shame in many of what is done in he name of “American Values”.

Sure, we make mistakes, but nobody’s perfect.

Wow…a nice children’s platitude and all is “expalined away”. Isn’t this very forum—SERIOUS DISCUSSION (of mistakes & perfection?) a good place to delve deeply into these areas much deeper than do children?

I never said that others couldn’t criticize, but it gets really old when our “pals” from “across the pond” (or our own bloody “hat” for that matter) starts telling us, “the doer of deeds”, where we could “do them better”.

Wow…just a weeeebit sensitive there aren’t we? Sorry, I don’t know what a “hat” is….so, I’m unable to address that notion. I find it ineresting, however, that YOU like to use a term that is “foriegn”…..while disdaining those outside of America for having and expressing opinions on who is doing “deeds” and the errors in them and the possibilities for addressing them. I’ve often found a direct correlation of maturity & the ability to graciously accept criticism.

I don’t care that the “my country’s better than yours” argument is debatable.

I’ve also found that one way to avoid criticism is to not engage in debates that could result in it.

I truly believe mine is the best.

Well…that is very nice and all. SO? I hope YOU are able to “allow” the rest of us to have a similar feeling for things we cherish.

Sorry if you don’t feel that.

One: I doubt ya’re very “sorrry”. Two: AGAIN, just how is it that YOU are able to devine how I feel?

But, quite frankly, Karma, all’s (<<<< hyperbole alert) you ever do is complain about how “oppressive” and “terrible” this great nation is.

I’m not much surprised that YOU see my opinions that way. After all, many (nearly all?) of them are in direct opposition to yours. I’ve often found that when those who disagree w/ someone are unable to base said disharmony on any real merit….they simply resort to: I’m right & you’re wrong.

You feel no pride for it. You feel nothing but contempt for it. Disgusting.

WOW, are YOU now clarivoyant? As I mentioned before….things like "pride in ones nation, family, looks, etc. are highly subjective and have very little place in a discussion on the merits of the results that arise from the actions taken by a society.

What I find to be disgusting is when ppl become so inept at remaining w/in rational parameters of discussing issues that they sink to telling others to: “take a hike…I don’t like you or your ideas”.

I think I’ve already told you this before, Karma, and I think many before me have already given you this offer but: Nobody’s holding a gun to your head, Karma. Nobody’s forcing you to be here. Nobody’s preventing you from crossing the border. If you hate this beautiful nation so bloody much then why don’t you, gee, I don’t know, LEAVE? I’m sure we proud Americans can get by JUST FINE without you.

Yeah…I’ve heard that shit a lot,,,and I heard it a loooong time ago (when I was a “hippie”). It was utter idiocy then & it is now. It is the petulent cry of a child that hasn’t an ability to tolerate that which is different and is unable to demonstrate a reasonable level of behavior that can make them acceptable to be around.

I truly luv the ignorance AND the arrogance it must take to develop an attitude to tell someone to get out of their own home. That sounds a lot like Hitler, et. al.

Here’s a little something that might be worthy of pondering: It is not only our RIGHT to question our govt.(& society, authority, etc.)….it is our RESPONSIBILITY to do so. Image being told I can’t do that…..hmmmmm.

And you might say (I’ll adjust my writing style for you here): “Ooooooohhhhh,,,,, how clicheee and stoopid….another ignorant,,,, lost soul telling me to leave Amerikkka….”.

LOL…just when I think it can’t become any more insipidly droll around here. Thanks.

That’s fine. You can believe whatever you want. But, here’s the deal, Karma, I don’t care. I’m just getting so sick of your mind-numbing “Amerikkka is horrible” rants.

Have ya ever cared enuff to stop for just a second and give thought to how WE feel about YOUR “rants”? HINT: Really read & think about the many responses sent YOUR way.

Just remember, Karma: YOU DON’T HAVE TO STAY HERE.

NO…and the interesting thing is: I don’t have to LEAVE HERE either. At least NOT on YOUR “bidding”…..eh? LOL
PS: Still awaiting your response to my previous post (note: “flagging it doesn’t count”).

First: how sad that YOU assume it is I who flags YOUR posts.

Second: I tend to respond to posts that merit my time. YOUR “privious post” was nothing more than YOUR usual tripe….just cleaned up enough to not be deleted (which I DID NOT flag the first one….grow up). This post merited my time because I always find it humorous to skewer the “thinking” that says: America….Love It or Leave IT (my way or the highway?). Of course, that “love” is ONLY that which the speaker PERSONALLY believes in……ya know, a lot like the Taliban.

Third: I truly do believe there has already been a response to your post by several others here. Shit man, I didn’t know your posts were exclusively FOR ME. WOW, can we have decoder rings, secret handshakes, and put on our posts: FOR YOUR EYES ONLY?

Okay, now I’ve had enough fun w/ ya. I need to catch up w/ what the more SERIOUS ppl are saying about this very volitile issue that is of huge import to the very moral fabric of America. Do we truly feel ALL Americans deserve a healthy life…..or, shall we just let them live (die slowly?) a pathetically unhealthy life even though (most of) they are contributing members of society.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

It is, into 50 states. Each state should figure out their social programs themselves, not a top-down order from Washington. It’s called federalism.

You will end up with people from states that don’t have universal healthcare traveling towards states that do get healthcare and go back. Or you will have to limit healthcare options from people outside of their state.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

Prove me wrong.

This proves me right. A claim needs to be proven. That’s your claim. So, tell me your evidence.

I’m referring to Germans (as in actual ethnic Germans) that moved over here for whatever reason. They seem to carry this “air of superiority” with them at all times. It’s quite annoying.

I have no idea why they recently moved to America, but you can’t assume all of them had a choice. Germany may still be the best for them, but America a necessary evil at the moment.

1) Hmm. I guess that’s fair, but it would take a long time to explain all the reasons why I think America’s great…there’s a lot.
2) I understand that, but still, nobody’s holding a gun to their head.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
It means that, left to a free market, medical care does not impose itself on the federal government. It does not nibble away at the GDP (directly at least). Socialized medicine, on the other hand, does just that.

what nonsense. seriously, if people believe that rubbish, no wonder socialism is so disliked. if you pay through taxes, your clearly not eating away GDP any more then when you’re paying corp heads. both ways cost people money. both ways have the money end up with other people. one way just has a lot more money end up elsewhere.

4. Prove it.

prove the complete and totally obvious?

5. Trust me. We’ve tried fixing our government. It doesn’t work very well. There’s no way in bloody hell a government can reach out and accurately meet the needs of everyone in the United States. We are a MASSIVE country. Everybody in each specific area has their own specific needs (and our populace has grown progressively more spoiled, fat, and whiny over the past few decades). Asking the government to efficiently do anything is borderline impossible. Thus, I don’t trust the government to do a damn thing correctly.

so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

You don’t seem to understand that no matter what my country may do, no matter how much other countries may hate it, and no matter what happens to it, I will still remain proud of the United States.

the very definition of complacent obstinance.
seriously, this is just so stupid. admitting to stay blind for the facts, and that you would let the US slip to whatever depths because you refuse to be critical of it.
you can’t be more stupid then that.

And a nation is NOT just composed of its government. A nation is composed of its people, of its culture, and of its values.

then why did you use the whole “greatest nation” rubbish in a retort to comments about the US governmetn eh?

also if it truly is a democracy, the governmetn is only a product of it’s culture and values.
also, culture and values can have flaws, as history have definitely showed. but your attitude would never allow improvement in this field.

I just said (somewhat implied, mind you) that if you constantly criticize without offering any solutions, then you need to get the fuck out.

why? you just try to figure out where we’d have been without criticism. kay?

1) See, here’s the problem: you obviously don’t live here (I wasn’t sure at first, but now I’m pretty confident). If you did, you would know that 50% of my nation’s members do not pay taxes to begin with.
2) Yes. Prove it.
3) Well, not exactly, I’m saying that, because the US is so big (with so many different areas in terms of climate, landscape, etc.) and because we have a lot of folk here who like to cling to multiculturalism (which, in opinion is also counterproductive…but that’s another issue), we have an “overhaul” of “needs” and “wants” coming from all over the nation. We have split it up (states. ie: I live in Tennessee), but State Powers are limited and relatively weak when compared to the Federal Government’s Powers.
4) No. I never said I would never be critical of it. My ultimate goal is to make sure the US makes wise decisions that ensures its longevity and prosperity. I wish for my nation to always respect the wishes of others, and hope that it strives to always take the moral high ground (although I know that sometimes that is just unrealistic). However, I understand the US can and will make mistakes, and sometimes big ones. I, however, will always remain proud of it. I may criticize it, but I NEVER hate it. EVER.
Also, I think you meant “than”.
5) I didn’t. I actually brought it up when someone criticized my people. Also…here’s the thing…we’re not a democracy…we’re a republic.
6) You misunderstand me. Criticism alone is nothing. “It is not the critic who counts” (Teddy Roosevelt). Pointing out possible solutions to the problems at hand, however, is valuable, as it does what criticism does not.

 
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3. It means that, left to a free market, medical care does not impose itself on the federal government. It does not nibble away at the GDP (directly at least). Socialized medicine, on the other hand, does just that. And I just don’t think this country, at this point in time, can afford another program that takes away from the GDP. I mean, look at the Brits. They’re CONSTANTLY looking for ways to cut spending on their healthcare, as they realize that it’s expensive as hell.

Well of course we are, but we don’t find them much. Probably why we have some of the cheapest and best healthcare in the world. Unlike the US, which has the least cost effective healthcare in the world. Your system is broken.

 
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NO MOAR GOVERNMENT AND I LOOKED AT A LOT OF VAGOOS

 
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Hmm. I guess that’s fair, but it would take a long time to explain all the reasons why I think America’s great…there’s a lot.

Yes, well, I’m not sure if this is the topic for that, and disagreement will come from the importance you set on certain factors.

I understand that, but still, nobody’s holding a gun to their head.

Not a physical one any way. If you moved here as a teenager (your parents took you with them), you didn’t have a choice in that, and it’ll be quite hard for you to move back. Or your job forced you to move there, if you didn’t want to be fired. Nevertheless, there are some people that you described, and some others that have different outlooks on life.

 
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Originally posted by thijser:
Originally posted by issendorf:
so what you’re saying is that the US is too big to be effective. so change THAT. split it up.

It is, into 50 states. Each state should figure out their social programs themselves, not a top-down order from Washington. It’s called federalism.

You will end up with people from states that don’t have universal healthcare traveling towards states that do get healthcare and go back. Or you will have to limit healthcare options from people outside of their state.

Absolutely, thijser….YOU are 100% right on that. Here in Kansas, we have many (esp. if they live close to the Oklahoma border) that go to Okla to register their cars. The property taxes are much lower there. We see a whooooole lot of Oklahoma car tags running around here.

When I lived in a town that was about 15 miles from the Okla border…on Sunday, many “alcohol luvers” would head for this “shitty-kool” bar (out house shitter, creaky old wooden floors, etc.) just the other side of the border to drink. Alcohol wasn’t sold (stores or bars) in Kansas on Sunday.

There is a tremendous usage of this “top-down-programs”, issen. The money American citizens pay in Federal Taxes is returned to the States in what is called block grants Like the National govt or not…this method of dispersal of funds is very common in many facets….even the work force. A company makes money, it pays its employees (largely based on their productivity), those employees disperse that money in areas they deem to be appropriate for their needs.

This “top-down-management”—while it most certainly DOES HAVE its "problems (some of them big &/or dumb)—still is, at this time, the “best” way to manage a huge process called the American society.& be somewhat “fair” about it.

 
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1) See, here’s the problem: you obviously don’t live here (I wasn’t sure at first, but now I’m pretty confident). If you did, you would know that 50% of my nation’s members do not pay taxes to begin with.

how does that relate to what i said?

2) Yes. Prove it.

you know what, i’m tired of that. you prove it doesn’t. it’s completely obvious and a known fact that if you let them charge whatever they want they will charge more than necessary. denying that is really just trolling. i’ll debate you trying to justify it, but i’m going to ignore you denying it, ok?

3) Well, not exactly, I’m saying that, because the US is so big (with so many different areas in terms of climate, landscape, etc.) […], we have an “overhaul” of “needs” and “wants” coming from all over the nation. We have split it up (states. ie: I live in Tennessee), but State Powers are limited and relatively weak when compared to the Federal Government’s Powers.

so? so split it up! i don’t think state borders are a good way, i refere to my response to issendorf up there^, but even if you use that, so … do that. give the federal states more power; turn it into a confederation.

and because we have a lot of folk here who like to cling to multiculturalism (which, in opinion is also counterproductive…but that’s another issue)

you realise of course this was caused by your European ancestors immigrating into a foreign land already populated by natives, and importing African slaves, right?
if you don’t like that, you shouldn’t even fucking be there.

) No. I never said I would never be critical of it. My ultimate goal is to make sure the US makes wise decisions that ensures its longevity and prosperity. I wish for my nation to always respect the wishes of others, and hope that it strives to always take the moral high ground (although I know that sometimes that is just unrealistic). However, I understand the US can and will make mistakes, and sometimes big ones. I, however, will always remain proud of it. I may criticize it, but I NEVER hate it. EVER.

irrelevant blabla. personally, i would save pride for personal achievements, but ok, i’ll grant you that. but being proud of something does not necessitate calling it “the greatest in the world”.

and saying it may not be the greatest nation in the world does not equate to hating it.

also saying that it is the “greatest nation in the world” is exploitable as a justification for hwatever it does. every criticism becomes blocked by a mere catch-phrase. every “maybe this would be better” is blocked by people like you by saying that even suggesting any other than the American way is better than the American way is anti-American, and therefor bad.
this stalls progress.

Also, I think you meant “than”.

what, seriously? you would try to correct my grammar, when my grammar was correct and YOURS is incorrect, in a language that is YOUR first language and not mine?

i mean “then”.

5) I didn’t. I actually brought it up when someone criticized my people. Also…here’s the thing…we’re not a democracy…we’re a republic.

i know that, but whenever america is criticised for not being a democracy, they claim it IS a democracy.

for instance, what the fuck is your deal with justifying a war by saying “we’re bringing them democracy” when you’re not even a democracy yourself?

when you claim it’s not a democracy, you’ve already lost.

6) You misunderstand me. Criticism alone is nothing. “It is not the critic who counts” (Teddy Roosevelt). Pointing out possible solutions to the problems at hand, however, is valuable, as it does what criticism does not.

well that’s a somewhat stupid sentiment. yes, lack of a better solution is a sound argument in favor of something. but working towards a solution can only be done once criticism is accepted. forcing a one-man solution to be created before criticism is collectively defined is foolish. you need to define a problem before you can understand how to fix it.

also your whle point doesn’t make any sense, because essentially you are claiming that karmakoolkid is a bad American for suggesting it might not be the greatest nation on the planet, because he doesn’t offer a solution. this simply doesn’t make sense.

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:

scoop, I simply cannot//won’t waste my time to try to decifer that form of responses. Formating in a manner that will address each part of a post is SERIOUSLY EASY. I probably wouldn’t bother to respond anyway because—-what was it that ya said to Darkruler???—"""_1. Hahahaha! See, the funny thing in that post, Dark, is that you appear to imply that I actually care as to whether or not you take my replies seriously. I don’t. Are YOU really that deluded?_""

I’ve thought about this for some time….extending a small “tutorial” on formating in a “quote” manner. Mostly, ya give such ridiculously terse replies—rather than one that is numbered 1 through 14—that I decided to not bother. Your posting in that manner looks odd enough as it is….that upon knowing how to post “quote-specific” BUT NOT BEING ABLE would be even odder (and YOU make fun of how I type….lol).

Here ya go, scoop:

If ya want to respond to a specific word, sentence, paragraph of someones post,,,do this to it:

I’m going to use this form of brackets {command} instead of the actual ones <command>. To do otherwise would only put what ever was between the “start command” {blockquote} and the “stop command” {/blockquote}…putting the word, sentence, paragraph in a green box.

System: Take the word, sentence, paragraph ya want to quote (green box it) so ya can respond to it (not in a green box) and then move on to the next part of their post ya want quote (green box it) so ya can respond to THAT ONE.

Do this: {blockquote}blah…blah..blah. The word, sentence, paragraph ya want to quote (have in a green box.{/blockquote}. The start & stop commands are rather obvious. A start command tells the computer to begin (start) to do something. The stop command tells it to stop doing it….the forward slash (slash…cut off) is the key difference in the same two words.

This applies to most ALL commands. Bold is: {b}blah..blah…blah{/b} The program this site (jhco…SITE,,,not “sight”) has rather “interestingly dfferent” methods for “crossout” & “itallics”.

So, just use forward & backward arrows < & > instead of my use above of { & } and viola!….YOU are formating in a quote-system. It will make your responses to spcific aspects of someones post a whooooole lot easier to make sense of.

If my above explanation is not yet all that clear to ya….just click on the quote for some one who has done it. Ya’ll see it right there…just look for it.

Oh, if ya’re gonna bring in a quote from someone else….there is a method to make it look just like the first green box at the top where it looks like: Originally posted by (person’s name in red) … (I’ll show ya this one in some future post where it would be applicable). I usually just add to the front of the word, sentence, paragraph (yet still after {blockquote}XXXXX said: It makes it a whoooooole lot clearer who is saying what. It also allows ppl to go to their post for a fuller reading of what was quoted. This can often cast a much different light on how it was used by the person quoting.

NOW, young man…..I expect to see better from ya in the future….LOL

 
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OmegaDoom…since I’m NOT a fan of wall-of-texts,,,,I’m NOT going to quote your long post just above…..scoop & jhco now have ruined my eyesSITE for green. LOL

BUT, I do want to direct a huge compliment for what ya said….
AND, a huge “thank you” for saving me from having to say it…lol

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

1) You said “As long as people pay they’re taxes” in one of your replies. 50% of folks wouldn’t even pay into the system they would be benefitting from in the first place.
2) Lol, I’m not trolling, but I’m also not going to provide an entire list as to why I think America is awesome. That’s a long list. So, it appears as we have reached an impasse.
3) Yeah…see…we’ve tried that too. And it failed miserably.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation
4) Actually it’s caused by mostly a large number of 1st generation immigrants (illegal or not), their children, or just stupid people who refuse to let go of their roots despite the fact that their closest tie to their roots is a relative who was actually alive 200 years ago. Some assimilation would be nice. But whatever…that’s for a different topic.
5) Never said pride made my nation the greatest. Never said someone not thinking we have the greatest nation equates to them hating it.
Now, this un-American thing you’ve brought up here simply depends on how you define “American”. I’ve discovered it’s a fairly flexible term.
6) Lol. I only did that because you called me a moron in your statement. Figure I might as well take a little stab back. Relax :)
7) Logical fallacy. You assume that I subscribe to the train of thought that someone else does (i.e.: saying that we’re a democracy despite critical analysis of our government). I don’t. I know what we are. And I see it that way.
8) You must understand here. I’m, for the most part, targeting those who do nothing but criticize. Who just shout and yell at the “doer of deeds” and point out “where the strong man stumbles”. Yet, despite their criticism, they never contribute anything. They themselves never try to actually physically help the situation. They never try to do anything…but yell…and scream…and whine…and bitch…and complain. Yes, criticism needs to be accepted at some points, but constantly presenting criticism without a solution eventually becomes worthless…and very annoying.

No. Karma is a bad American because he wants certain systems to be implemented here (systems that studies have shown, Americans simply do not want), and he always complains and whines about who horrible and terrible and unjust it is to live here without these certain systems implemented. What he doesn’t seem to realize is that the systems and implementations he is always praising and loving are already in place in other countries…and nobody’s holding a gun to his head to stay here. He can move anytime he wants. I’ve never seen him express his appreciation for anything he has here, so, I assume he’s very unhappy here…so, instead of trying to force values on Americans, that, for the most part, we don’t want, why doesn’t he just leave? I simply don’t understand.

 
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The problems is that you scoop are an individualist. Accept it.
You only think about me, me, me, and never we, we, we.
That is the major problem with conservatives.

They think about themselves over everyone else. Liberals think about everyone, and sometimes putting the need of the many ahead of their own interests at times.

What you find so detestable about everyone having equal opportunity to the “best” healthcare possible is that in order for those who have benefited off the backs of thousands, perhaps millions of people is that you may have to sacrifice a little cash here, and there for the collective good.

I guess if anything will interfere with collecting the most cash possible, it must be nipped in the bud. It must be stopped because everything must float to the top, and stay there right?

You also seem to misplace hate with healthy criticism. I doubt Karma hates your nation. Hell, if anyone hates anything, they truly must re-evaluate their stance on that matter, and weed through any foolishly emotional qualms they have with said matter. I disagree with the stance that conservatives take, but I will never debase myself to the level of hate. Hate breeds nothing but ignorance. I am always open to conservative opinions, but I have not been won over by any particular ideologies of conservative nature. I’m fine with this, but are you?

 
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Originally posted by Draconavin:

The problems is that you scoop are an individualist. Accept it.
You only think about me, me, me, and never we, we, we.
That is the major problem with conservatives.

They think about themselves over everyone else. Liberals think about everyone, and sometimes putting the need of the many ahead of their own interests at times.

What you find so detestable about everyone having equal opportunity to the “best” healthcare possible is that in order for those who have benefited off the backs of thousands, perhaps millions of people is that you may have to sacrifice a little cash here, and there for the collective good.

I guess if anything will interfere with collecting the most cash possible, it must be nipped in the bud. It must be stopped because everything must float to the top, and stay there right?

You also seem to misplace hate with healthy criticism. I doubt Karma hates your nation. Hell, if anyone hates anything, they truly must re-evaluate their stance on that matter, and weed through any foolishly emotional qualms they have with said matter. I disagree with the stance that conservatives take, but I will never debase myself to the level of hate. Hate breeds nothing but ignorance. I am always open to conservative opinions, but I have not been won over by any particular ideologies of conservative nature. I’m fine with this, but are you?

1. I know I’m an individualist. That tends to be a common thread among conservatives, because we feel as though we don’t need others to help us do what everyone should be able to do by themselves. However, apparently we aren’t as “cold-hearted” as you make us out to be. We still do see that some people are incapable of assisting themselves, and many of us apparently live by the motto: “A measure of a society is how well it treats its weakest members.”
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html
Don’t generalize about us.
2. “Liberals think about everyone…” Don’t flatter yourself. Liberals have a habit of “pretending” this is the case. They are no more or less selfish than the average guy. Don’t fool yourself into thinking like this. It is a fallacy. It is foolish. And it is, put simply, a lie.
3. I do not find it detestable. I just find the realities of such a system to be very dissuading. It is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.
4. I don’t know if Karma hates my nation (although I suspect that’s the case), but he is certainly not happy here. And, thus, I’ve instructed him to do something entirely logical: LEAVE. It’s just like what I’m doing with my own life now. I’m not happy at the university I’m attending. Thus, I’m transferring. I’m LEAVING the university, because I do not like it here. Same thing applies to Karma. He obviously is not happy here. So I’m telling him to LEAVE.

 
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So I’m telling him to LEAVE.

I have to admit, your country will certainly be the greatest in the world for all Americans if all those who don’t agree should leave.