What could the government do to turn you against them?

Maybe you don’t like the government. Or maybe you do. The question is, at what point would rebellion/rioting/leaving be your personal choice?

Indefinite detention? Death Penalty without trial despite constitutional protection? Higher taxes on the middle class? Higher governmental pay than the average tax payer? Shipping guns off to Mexico to… prevent gun-crime? It’s already in place. Concentration camps meant to house a race of people? We had that under FDR.

People have been protesting, but not only has this been relatively ineffective, I’ve actually read news Congress wants to vote in higher paychecks. (I can’t tell sometimes if my government is greedy, or just trying to piss people off.) What could the government do to make you rebel or leave the country? Explain your reasoning.

Note: This is not about Republicans/Democrats, but the government in general. I don’t care if you have an excuse prepared for anyone on the subject or blame to shift, this is not the topic to discuss that.

Removing the Second Amendment would do it for me.

Something that is actually important. Such as sending in the army to massacre towns, or arresting people from a certain group to be sent to death camps (you mentioned this one, I just wanted to agree). This denies the right to life, the most important right of all. None of the other rights are applicable if you don’t have this right, and the right to life will be in effect no matter what others rights are taken from you.

I’m not much of a fighter, so I probably won’t be on the front lines, but if possible I’d be doing something else to aid the rebels. If it all goes wrong, I probably would flee.

The question is, at what point would rebellion/rioting/leaving be your personal choice?

To me those are three different things, intended to demonstrate three different levels of disgruntlement.

Leaving: I harbour ambitions to leave in any case, to join what’s left of my family in Australia. So that will probably happen in the next few years.

Rioting. I’m a veteran of some of the anti-American marches in the sixties, mainly against the war in Vietnam, but segregation was also a big issue for us. I was a teenager then, and it was done partly for recreational purposes. Riots are a lot of fun at that age. Sadly I’m a bit too old to go in the front line these days, but if the government reneges just one more time on its promise to give us a referendum on our future in the EU, I will feel obliged to attend any riot that I hear about. Even if all I can offer is a bit of encouragement.

Rebellion. Now that is a very big step. Rioting is telling the government to wake up, rebellion is overthrowing it altogether. I can’t think of many things which would bring me even to consider doing that. Perhaps an attempted dissolution of the NHS or of public education, in which case I would have 60 million rebels lined up alongside me.

No single or specific event, but the accumulation of them all combined with no hope for resolution within the “system”.

The question is, at what point would rebellion/rioting/leaving be your personal choice?

Probably if they forced us to get a chip implanted (that held medical information or gave us access to buy/sell food etc) or took away religious freedoms, like you see in other third world countries. Sounds apocalyptic maybe, but that would do it for me.

wow…i agree wtih ted Stevens. go figure!

anyway, if my country did any of these things listed (well, other than the tax or pay ones), i would protest as far as violent rebellion for sure. and that’s my whole problem with America is that it still ain’t happening.

the Dutch government would never get away with such things. name some examples and i’ll show you the difference.

Riots are a lot of fun at that age.

i think the overzealous riot-control of American cops is just meant to soak the fun out of it. come to think of it…there actually were student riots (high school) in the Netherlands a few years ago… the cops beat that down pretty rough for our standarts, while every non-idiot would be on the STUDENTS’ side, not the cops’. what does that tell you about cops eh?

I think despite all of the faults, the US is still worthwhile, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

Dunno, it would have to be something pretty massive to get me out altogether, or riled up enough to revolt.
Rioting just seems like more of a social…disorder? That’s not the right word. Basically, just instances of mob mentality.
While there have been some moments lately that could be described as “riots” and attributed to politics, in the last few decades they are matched by similar actions that could be chalked up to nothing more than sports fans with too much alcohol and “team spirit”.

One of the instances ted_stevens didn’t think to mention is when a government allows blatant and continued discrimination. That’s pretty appalling.
Fortunately, over the years the US has proven itself progressive enough that such discriminations have been stopped for the most part. I’m not claiming that the US has eradicated discrimination, because it obviously hasn’t. I feel that as a nation, though, via social and legal means, we’ve been pretty good about at least correcting those mistakes, if not preventing them outright.

Sadly, the examples he gave are all current (other than the internment of the Japanese during WWII).
These are problems that need to be addressed, obviously. It’s unfortunate that the current political environment is so polarized over ideology.
We might make some progress on real issues if the Parties could STFU and get some work done.

The moment my government tramples on civil rights to make running its affairs more efficient, more cost-effective, or unfairly benefits the politicians in it, it has crossed the line.

^in that case, i hope you ain’t American, because if so, your government would be so far passed that line, they’ve left Pluto behind.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

^in that case, i hope you ain’t American, because if so, your government would be so far passed that line, they’ve left Pluto behind.

Wow. We dead set on agree on almost everything here and I think we’re very far against each other in another thread. The awkward moment where I don’t know whether to like someone or dislike someone.

^you’re not the first to be in that position i’m sure.

You know fellas, I have predicted an uprising in my lifetime. Let me tell you why I think it may happen. Since the Great Depression, our government has pushed to gain more power over the economy, the people, everything. There has been a constant attack on our freedoms and every generation loses a few of those freedoms. They don’t realize the lose as they never had that particular freedom. It has been a steady decline in freedom. We are not as free as we were a hundred years ago.

As of the last decade, the push has increased. It is no longer a step by step process from generation to generation, is it a full out assault by our government. Posters have touched on this problem in their posts with some of the reasons they have given. We are a pressure cooker right now as common people are feeling the uneasiness of what is happening around them. Politics have become polarized with each side positive their ideologies are the correct ones to move the country along. There is no moderate positions anymore, you are either far left or far right, Even the two main parties don’t represent the people like they used to.

Our country is not headed in a good direction right now. We are headed for a financial cliff. People are out of work and losing everything they have worked for. The people are no longer important in our country, the financial institutions are the focus. The ignoring of the problems of the people are making them angry and with anger comes the violence I have talked about before. As we move away from a government by the people, you will see more and more angst toward our government. You youngsters will more than likely see this uprising in your lifetimes. I may even see it in mine. We might even see it soon.

^if you’re right, then there is one extremely important question: what side will the military be on?

the entire outcome may depend completely on that.

Americans are all out about how “free” they are, but there’s not a single other factor involved. Have you thought about that? Funny examples can be shown, but I’ll just leave you with the thought that for many types of freedom you would have (without laws and regulations) someone else has less. The easiest to think of is the freedom to kill, which you Americans don’t have. This is an extreme example, but it shows that freedoms aren’t always “positive”. In the past, there was a lot less regulation. This changed to be stricter. Worse for some people, better for others. But hey, at least we agree some freedoms need to exist. Some think it should be the freedom to insult the crap out of someone, others think we should be free to marry any gender we want.

We are not as free as we were a hundred years ago.

But it’s not the wild west any more. You would know the legalities better than me, but I imagine you no longer have the freedom to turn a petty arguement into a gunfight in the street. Is that really such a great loss of freedom? Perhaps you could specify some of the freedoms you think Americans have lost, so that we could examine them in a little more detail.

The people are no longer important in our country, the financial institutions are the focus. The ignoring of the problems of the people are making them angry and with anger comes the violence I have talked about before. As we move away from a government by the people, you will see more and more angst toward our government.

By financial institutions I assume you are referring to the big corporations. If you think they are the problem, why do you spend so much time here defending them? I agree with you that big business needs to be controlled and regulated, but that means a loss of their freedom to take the piss out of the average American without fear of legal reprisals. You need to decide which is more important.

Really, the line for me would be when we stop having fair elections. Because until the government crosses THAT line, there’s no point in rebelling – we overthrow the government, and replace it with… what?

i’m sorry, but the US has never had fair elections, ever.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

i’m sorry, but the US has never had fair elections, ever.

Under what definition of “fair”? I’m not talking about things like having lots of money, I’m talking about things like in Iran where candidates must be preapproved, or candidate X automatically winning regardless of the ballots cast.

so remotely fair is good enough for you, then. right, ok. whatever helps you sleep.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

i’m sorry, but the US has never had fair elections, ever.

Let’s pretend you have the power to make whatever law you want. What do you change to make an election fair?

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

Some think it should be the freedom to insult the crap out of someone, others think we should be free to marry any gender we want.

I agree that freedom is sometimes a point of view, and needs to be defined person by person. Freedom to one person, is something different to another. Take seatbelts as one example—one person may view them as a regulation or restriction on their freedoms, while another sees them as protection, or “freedom” to be safe.

You would know the legalities better than me, but I imagine you no longer have the freedom to turn a petty arguement into a gunfight in the street. Is that really such a great loss of freedom?

Here’s another good example. I don’t consider it a loss of freedom at all. I consider it a protection that someone can’t settle a dispute with their gun in the middle of the street.

Let’s pretend you have the power to make whatever law you want. What do you change to make an election fair?

Limit on campaign contributions and switch to pure popular vote (as opposed to the current partisan system) are two things that come to mind.

no unlimited campaign funding; equal media coverage; no electoral college that can overthrow your vote; no state-totals going only one way but direct election; no first past the post presidential system but a proportional parliamentary system; no arbitrarily banning parties off of ballots…

Realistically, I would only leave, and it would end up being for economic reasons.
I doubt that the US would ever start to outright persecute certain groups or become a tyrannical regime, although that would get me to rebel. Or just leave.

I could see myself leaving my country (Germany) if i could expect a significantly better living standards in a other country.

Otherwise to get me to rebel, there would have to be massive interference and corruption of the Government regarding the democratic voting system and the checks and balances installed to protect it. Otherwise it would be less the government thats the problem but the majority of people voting for it and rebelling against a majority is generally useless terrorism(exception would be if one does not have the option to leave the country).

Originally posted by jhco50:

There has been a constant attack on our freedoms and every generation loses a few of those freedoms. They don’t realize the lose as they never had that particular freedom. It has been a steady decline in freedom. We are not as free as we were a hundred years ago.

I really really doubt this. If we look at the civil rights movement and the strides it has made it comes apparent that except for a small minority(racists, men who like to beat their wives and so on) most people have gained rights and freedoms.