Creation vs. Evolution page 19

763 posts

Flag Post
You are obviously and clearly totally unfamiliar with how the Jewish tradition works.
Nobody suddenly “writes things down”.

explain.

The book speaks of times at least as old as Moses – and we do have a physical way (more than one actually) to trace it back.

and that proves?

I just mentioned one of the easiest examples above.

where? i don’t see it.

Yes, we can’t do it “scientifically” (at least not in the sense of bringing some foreign documents that would mention the Jews, oh, wait, I’ve heard that there WERE such, haven’t you?), but we still can do it PHYSICALLY (or SOCIALLY, whatever term you like more).
It’s FAR from being “mere fairy tales”.

what? did you just say something, or randomly string words together?


also i don’t actually care. we have the same archeological findings about cultures younger than 6000 years old than we have older than 6000 years old. this distinction you supposed that everything younger than 6000 years ago must have actually happened so are actual remains of actual civilisations, while everything older than 6000 years ago must have been planted their to fool us, is a ridiculous suggestion, and to believe that because of how convincing specifically Jewish Traditions are to you (please tell me why), rather than assume the obvious, and to assume that that’s what some God demands of you…

it’s just laughable.

 
Flag Post

And you still hide the fact that you edited your post? You KNOW you hadn’t written your response to my post on the original version – I was asking for proof for “we can do it physically/socially”. Nevermind.
Regardless:
1) Fair enough, I guess.
2) Guesses? Please tell me: Is it a guess to say that the Sun is hot?
If yes: Under this logic, you are correct in saying we are guessing when talking about Evolution and all. You also have mental problems.
If no: Then why not Evolution? We have so much proof. SO. MUCH. PROOF. It’s NOT guessing.
3) Tradition? How is that evidence?
Social facts are only evidence of mass delusion, evidence of the concept of God, evidence that people believe it.

 
Flag Post

BB
I also hate this “silent editing” stuff.
Overall, formatting here is awful…
Anyways.
1. I’m glad at least ONCE. :D
2. Time machine. Period. And I just combined evolution WITH Biblical creation – but you’re too blind in your YELLING
3. Kohen-ship is a physical tradition, that haven’t changed since the very description appeared in the Torah regarding Aharon. I really doubt it was that easy to convince EVERYONE that someone was “of an ancestry of some mythical person”, especially since this applied to many people at once AND their paternal records too.
I doubt you can suddenly prove you’re a descendant of Washington, or can you?

OD
Tradition relies very much on physical social interaction, you can’t just “invent” something there, cause you’d be debunked by the elder generation.
I really don’t understand HOW HARD is that to grasp…

It proves that Moses is of the same times as the book, at the least.

KOHEN!

There are mentions of pretty Jewish-sounding evidence in some Egyptian and similar documents.
Anyways, such stuff as the Kohen tradition (and the strong learning tradition, nation-wide, unlike in other religions), is pretty good proof too.

 
Flag Post

Anyone williing to say that any culture older than 6 thousand years is not real and made by God to fool us, is a person that is so deep into delusion there is no coming back from. His logic has failed him, his ability to reason is non-existent. This poor sap will never grasp reality because they have jumped head first into the pond of fantasy and are happily swimming around playing Marco polo with himself.

 
Flag Post

FWW
You’re again appealing to emotions.
I’ll repeat my request – any BOOK of such an old age?
And preferably with an accompanying tradition that MANY were using it (makes it more credible, don’t you think?).

 
Flag Post

I’m glad at least ONCE. :D

It was, perhaps, the first logical point you made. :D


2) That is the 100% absolute proof – we’re fine with 99,99999%.
It’s exactly like someone claimed that the Sun is hot, but then you say “But you haven’t been on the Sun with a thermometer, have you?” and think that that disproves the claim “the Sun is hot”. (Protip: It doesn’t)
3) What is the Kohen-ship? Who is Aharon? What do you mean “haven’t changed since…”? When was that? Who was convinced? Who was the ancestor (Aharon?)? So what if it affects their paternal records? Why does it matter if I suddenly prove I’m a descendant of Washington? How is it comparable to something millennium ago? (I’m assuming the “When was that?” answer is a millennium ago).

 
Flag Post

BB
2. Not even comparable, and you know what EXACTLY I mean, and why this is a WRONG comparison.
3. Have you read the Wiki?
It says:
“Aaron received the priesthood along with his children and any descendants that would be born subsequently…Thereafter, the priesthood has remained with the descendants of Aaron.”
And the entire Jewish nation still finds out who is a Kohen EXACTLY through his father being a son of a son…of a son of Aharon.
And in practice, the default option is “prove that you are a Kohen”, not vice versa.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
You’re again appealing to emotions.
I’ll repeat my request – any BOOK of such an old age?
And preferably with an accompanying tradition that MANY were using it (makes it more credible, don’t you think?).

Any old book? Don’t follow you. What do you mean?

 
Flag Post

2) No, I don’t. You are the one who doesn’t understand how concrete our proof is. If you want to call looking at monkey-shaped skulls that slowly progress towards a human-shaped skull and then claiming we evolved from primates “guessing”, fuck you. If you want to call the fact that we share 95-99% of our genes with primates (depends on the species) not enough proof, fuck you. If you want to call everything, from vestigial organs to chromosomes analysis, not enough proof, FUCK. YOU.
We have more proof that we evolved from apes (for example) than we have proof that the Sun is hot, perhaps. We’ve never got a bucket-full of Sun plasma to analyze it, but we have looked at humans and primates to their very basic building blocks and seen that we’ve both evolved from a common ancestor.


And the entire Jewish nation still finds out who is a Kohen EXACTLY through his father being a son of a son…of a son of Aharon.

3) How do they do that? How do they know that their father is a son of a son of a sonsonsosnosnonosnosnsdosnhfdgjkh of Aharon?

 
Flag Post

FWW
Why am I not surprised?
Repeating again (definitely NOT the last time, as it seems):
Jews have a physical traceable social-bound nation-wide tradition that is rooted in the specific book called Torah.
I don’t know of any religion (or culture, as in the last posts) with anything similar.
They lack at least one of the above parameters, making it LESS probable and believable.
And about all this “not being scientific”, this was answered before many times, so I won’t repeat it NOW.
Just out of spite. :D

BB
2. So, the very idea that I so clearly mentioned, that these skulls CAN be “made retroactively” (and science WON’T be able to track it, cause it was specifically made that way), is totally foreign to your brainwashed mind?
Not surprising – but very annoying and dejecting…
3. How do you know you are your father’s son?
What about your father?
His father?
His father’s father?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
Why am I not surprised?
Repeating again (definitely NOT the last time, as it seems):
Jews have a physical traceable social-bound nation-wide tradition that is rooted in the specific book called Torah.
I don’t know of any religion (or culture, as in the last posts) with anything similar.
They lack at least one of the above parameters, making it LESS probable and believable.

Jews don´t belong as such to a shared nation but at most to a cultural/religious ethnic group. Surer there is no a nation(Israel) that claims to be the nation of the jews, but its not. At best its a nation of some/many Jews(those that are Israeli nationalists).
If you take either groups the cultural/religious ethnic or those who´s nationality is Israeli then you can find such in most religions/nations. Even combing both.
Most nations have a physical traceable social-bound nation-wide tradition thats rooted in some religious scripture or the other. Same goes and even more so for most cultural/religious ethnic groups. Everywhere a nation has a dominant religious ethnic group they over lap.

 
Flag Post

JBG
Oh, but there is a Palestinian nation, SURE? :DDDDD
Anyways, I said JEWS, not ISRAELIS.
Also, WHAT?
Show me another nation (or whatever-name huge group) that claims to be descended from a specific person/small group – and this leads to shaping their entire lives according to some book that documents that connection/tradition.
I’m waiting.
You must have also misunderstood my entire point.
I’m so tired of this block-head-ness…

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
Why am I not surprised?
Repeating again (definitely NOT the last time, as it seems):
Jews have a physical traceable social-bound nation-wide tradition that is rooted in the specific book called Torah.
I don’t know of any religion (or culture, as in the last posts) with anything similar.
They lack at least one of the above parameters, making it LESS probable and believable.
And about all this “not being scientific”, this was answered before many times, so I won’t repeat it NOW.
Just out of spite. :D

BB
2. So, the very idea that I so clearly mentioned, that these skulls CAN be “made retroactively” (and science WON’T be able to track it, cause it was specifically made that way), is totally foreign to your brainwashed mind?
Not surprising – but very annoying and dejecting…
3. How do you know you are your father’s son?
What about your father?
His father?
His father’s father?

A whole lot of words again that go around in circles…but anyway…Muslims, Hindus, Norse Paganism….all of these religions have a physical traceable social-bound nation-wide tradition that is rooted in the specific book called Koran, Vedas, Prose Edda.

All these religions and many more match the criteria that you personally have determined as ‘proof’…so which one will you convert to?

 
Flag Post
OD
Tradition relies very much on physical social interaction, you can’t just “invent” something there, cause you’d be debunked by the elder generation.
I really don’t understand HOW HARD is that to grasp…

It proves that Moses is of the same times as the book, at the least.

KOHEN!

There are mentions of pretty Jewish-sounding evidence in some Egyptian and similar documents.
Anyways, such stuff as the Kohen tradition (and the strong learning tradition, nation-wide, unlike in other religions), is pretty good proof too.

ah. because older people say so. yes, because anecdotes shared mouth-to-mouth over hundreds or thousands of generations is really the best way to know what really happened.

especially that stuff about talking serpents, troglodytes, compounded animals…

yeah, that totally proves all archeological findings (that are dated to be older than 6000 years) as having been planted there by God the Deceiver, because some old people say so.

and it must also be these old people that got it right. not hundreds of other mythologies told and retold with ever growing snowball effects by hundreds or thousands of different cultures.

this is just precious.

 
Flag Post

FWW
Muslims base their religion on Muhammad’s testimony ONLY – thus it’s not a NATIONAL tradition (AGAIN, for the Nth time, the Jewish tradition claims that there were 3 millions witnesses when the Torah was given to them, unlike Muslims/Christians, who BELIEVED in the words of a FEW).
Christians base their religion on a claim of a dozen witnesses ONLY, not 3 millions like Jews.
I have no idea about the others – but if any of them claimed the similar claim to Jews, I’m sure you’d be able to find it SOMEWHERE.
While I personally have never heard of such claims – HAVE YOU?

OD
Well, when the same story is kept undistorted over half of the globe for a dozen centuries – YES.
And you can just leave me and “my delusions” – I’m NOT the one who keeps yelling “you’re an idiot”.

 
Flag Post

If there is no valid evidence for that claim the number adds nothing to its credibility.

 
Flag Post

is totally foreign to your brainwashed mind

Brainwashed is the idea that God made the world LOOK as if it was old. This idea comes from the desperation of not having your God and your idea of a Young Earth proven false – YOU are the brainwashed. Sorry kid.

How do you know you are your father’s son?
What about your father?
His father?
His father’s father?

DNA test. Have they done DNA tests all the way to Ahamahasmdahsdng? (Or whatever was his name)

 
Flag Post

EPR
So, you just ignored the whole page, right?
About kohens, about tradition, about anything I say – if it doesn’t suit YOUR world view..?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

Christians base their religion on a claim of a dozen witnesses ONLY

Proof?

Muslims/Christians

Take a step back there, you can’t compare those two just like that and then say Jews are completely different.

you can just leave me and “my delusions”

I think everyone should this.

As a note, please give evidence for once instead of always requesting it from others.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

JBG
Oh, but there is a Palestinian nation, SURE? :DDDDD

??? You might want to look up the defintion of country to understand what a nation is.

Anyways, I said JEWS, not ISRAELIS.

And i am trying to tell you that the jews as such don´t have a nation. They are a cultural/religous ethnic group. There thousands of those around mostly based around either a specific culture or religion or both.

Also, WHAT?
Show me another nation (or whatever-name huge group) that claims to be descended from a specific person/small group – and this leads to shaping their entire lives according to some book that documents that connection/tradition.
I’m waiting.

Romic-Catholicism. Claims to descend itself directly from Paulus, has a book that includes “documentation” of the connection.
Various Islamic religions and nations who claim to be descended from Mohamed and so on.

You must have also misunderstood my entire point.
I’m so tired of this block-head-ness…

No. I understand that your trying to making up a specific category that proves the uniques of your religion that you believe in. The problem is that your religion is in no way truly unique or original, so you can only do so by ignorant of other relgions and using wrong definition by trying to make it at least semantically sound unique.

 
Flag Post

AS
Oh, you can prove the opposite? Wow! Please DO IT!
I gave, a few examples.
All got promptly ignored or debunked per se.
Someone who is blind, won’t see the light even if it can blind others…

JBG
Funny.
You find separate sides everywhere – while I don’t see any other group COMBINING all of those in ONE.
Yes, some claim descent, some claim personal tradition, some are just a big group, some have books that affect their life, but WHO has all of what I’ve mentioned all over – in ONE?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
Muslims base their religion on Muhammad’s testimony ONLY – thus it’s not a NATIONAL tradition (AGAIN, for the Nth time, the Jewish tradition claims that there were 3 millions witnesses when the Torah was given to them, unlike Muslims/Christians, who BELIEVED in the words of a FEW).
Christians base their religion on a claim of a dozen witnesses ONLY, not 3 millions like Jews.
I have no idea about the others – but if any of them claimed the similar claim to Jews, I’m sure you’d be able to find it SOMEWHERE.
While I personally have never heard of such claims – HAVE YOU?

OD
Well, when the same story is kept undistorted over half of the globe for a dozen centuries – YES.
And you can just leave me and “my delusions” – I’m NOT the one who keeps yelling “you’re an idiot”.

Typical, you are so closed minded, when evidence is given to you you wish to hide from it or make lame excuses. But that is what I expected from you. Your heart is closed and all that darkness has made you blind to seeing the truth. The Hindus have far greater proof for their Gods and a far great set of traditions…and they have always had their own homeland. They have a stronger religion set on a longer line of traditions than what the Jews have. So when will you convert, you can’t deny the evidence. Hinud proof (going by your standards) is superior to your Jewish proof, and therefore more likely to be correct. Convert now, get on the winning team.

 
Flag Post

Oh, you can prove the opposite? Wow! Please DO IT!

The Easter Bunny exists. Can you prove the opposite? Wow! Please DO IT!

 
Flag Post

Oh, you can prove the opposite? Wow! Please DO IT!

Doing it again~

I gave, a few examples.

Yeah because one wiki link sure is a lot compared to the tonne others have given. Sure there’s another link to a site, in a different thread which isn’t related to this one.

All got promptly ignored or debunked per se.

You mean like everyone elses right?

 
Flag Post

@somebody613:

But your very first sentence is kinda stupid, cause my idea was “proving past assumptions with present facts”.

Is there any reason to suspect that similar life forms in similar environments wouldn’t act a similar way? How is looking at examples from the past few hundred years up until now “proving past assumptions with current facts”? I feel like you’re under the impression that the constants that we recognize today aren’t constant. Which, through observation since the invention of modern science, we have not discovered any change in the abovementioned, relevant constants.

I say that what evolution is supposed to be, is contrary to what we see today.
You say “how can that be!?”

No, I’m saying that what you’re saying is well-understood and doesn’t contradict the theory of evolution. You think that it does, but I have explained how you are mistaken.

Prey-predator balance is a “current fact”.
Dodo’s extinction is another fact, where the “current fact” assumption fails.

No, predator-prey balance is ever-changing. See, you’re only looking at one or two variables — like, the number of predators and the number of prey, but are refusing to accept that there are other variables at play here. Yes, with the two variables you have identified exclusively in play, we should always expect to see predators and prey with some sort of balance. However, you then introduce another variable into the scenario — invasive species — and you say, “oh well this is the way it’s supposed to be but it’s not like that!” No, it would only be like that if the two original variables are in play, and clearly they aren’t the only variables in play. Make sense?

I specifically used small-size environment idea, so you can’t knock it off by saying that the predators wouldn’t catch all the prey.
There are situations where this doesn’t apply so much.

I don’t think I said that in that context.

“Earth is a big place with many ecosystems” – “current fact” usage at work. :D

When, according to scientific/historical evidence, do you propose that Earth was not a big place with many ecosystems?

I explained how I see the dodo example ruining the whole assumed appearance of the modern ecosystem.

Earth isn’t just one ecosystem. We refer to Earth as the biosphere, made up of 8 or so different biomes, each composed of many ecosystems. What you may think “ruined” an ecosystem probably had a life form that benefited from the invasive species. It isn’t so much ecosystem-ruining as it is ecosystem-altering. Things change and life goes on.

“Human empathy” is yet another “current fact” usage.

Don’t understand your problem with facts…

Cause lions (and majority of other herd animals) do not help the POOR/WEAK of their own, they either send them off or EAT them…

Right, but well-functioning members of their society aren’t sent off or eaten, are they? There are more perks to grouping-up with members that can provide a good service to everyone, usually, than when one is a lone-wolf fighting for his/herself.
________________________
@FlabbyWoofWoof:

The Hindus have far greater proof for their Gods

Really? I didn’t remember anyone had any scientific proof for any deities.