Creation vs. Evolution page 20

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OD
Well, when the same story is kept undistorted over half of the globe for a dozen centuries – YES.
And you can just leave me and “my delusions” – I’m NOT the one who keeps yelling “you’re an idiot”.

i never yelled that. i subtly hinted i might include you under “retarded people”.

and this story is certainly not undestorted. the only thing that may consistent about it is the terms used. plus they have the Torah define boundaries with, so there goes your argument right out the Windows anyway. if they deviate their story too far, “elders” are gonna debunk them using the Torah as the authorty on Truth. that doesn’t prove shit.

and the stories do deviate, because not nearly every Jew believes in Young Earth Creationism. in fact many find that idea preposterous.


The Hindus have far greater proof for their Gods

Really? I didn’t remember anyone had any scientific proof for any deities.

under 613’s definition of “proof”…

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
Muslims base their religion on Muhammad’s testimony ONLY – thus it’s not a NATIONAL tradition (AGAIN, for the Nth time, the Jewish tradition claims that there were 3 millions witnesses when the Torah was given to them, unlike Muslims/Christians, who BELIEVED in the words of a FEW).
Christians base their religion on a claim of a dozen witnesses ONLY, not 3 millions like Jews.
I have no idea about the others – but if any of them claimed the similar claim to Jews, I’m sure you’d be able to find it SOMEWHERE.
While I personally have never heard of such claims – HAVE YOU?

OD
Well, when the same story is kept undistorted over half of the globe for a dozen centuries – YES.
And you can just leave me and “my delusions” – I’m NOT the one who keeps yelling “you’re an idiot”.

High ignorance of religion. Both Christianity and Islam do not claim to have just couple of witness but on events of epic Proportions. Jesus sermon on the mount supposedly happened in front of multitudes, the expulsion of the moneylenders from the Temple is similarly such and epic event witnessed by many.
Mohamed conquered whole nations with “gods” help(like an host of angels or splitting the moon to intimidate enemies).

 
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Jesus appeared to over 40 of people after becoming a zombie (according to the fairy tales), there’s also that. Along with performing shitty miracles and “curing” people all over his villages. Oh, yes, he also told people that demons cause diseases (Louis Pasteur hates Jesus).

 
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Wow, too much at once…

FWW
I see it the other way around.
I haven’t been given an example I did ask for.
Not yet, that is.
I don’t KNOW about Hindus – so show me where it’s written this way.
(I can show you, or maybe did already before, where it is written about JEWS.)

BB
Just shut up. :DDD

AS
I. HAVEN’T. SEEN. ANY. EXAMPLES. “GIVEN”.
At least not as decisive links that are READABLE.

PL
PLEASE!
Just read where I said that I agree that evolution can be used to explain the END-RESULT – but it can as well be COMBINED with Biblical Creation.

NEW EDIT.
OD
You just helped me prove that Torah is old enough to be used as first-hand evidence.
(Just read your post clearly.)

JBG/BB
OK, yet this is still FEW compared to millions.
Also, did ALL of those present, CONVERT to Christianity/Islam?
Cause otherwise they’re not used as the test group at all.

 
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I. HAVEN’T. SEEN. ANY. EXAMPLES. “GIVEN”.

Learn to read then. Or should I quote every link given to you so far in this thread alone?

 
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AS
None of them qualified to answer my specific request.

 
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NEW EDIT.
OD
You just helped me prove that Torah is old enough to be used as first-hand evidence.
(Just read your post clearly.)

what? why? i mean…what does that even mean? first-hand evidence? because it’s old it’s first-hand? and so what if it’s first hand?

what are you trying to say?

 
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OD

if they deviate their story too far, “elders” are gonna debunk them using the Torah as the authorty on Truth. that doesn’t prove shit.

Self-repairing tradition – EXACTLY what I meant all the time. :D

 
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Self repairing or self changing and therefor deviating from their origin making it doubtful that even if it was originally the word of god it is now no longer?

 
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lol. how does that prove anything?

you just said that the Torah is not the proof, but the “tradition” of mouth to mouth story telling as dictated by the elder, and that the consistency of the story proves the validity.

when this supposed “consistency” is just based off of following some ancient religious texts, how is what proven by what exactly?

 
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@somebody613:

PL
PLEASE!
Just read where I said that I agree that evolution can be used to explain the END-RESULT – but it can as well be COMBINED with Biblical Creation.

Evolutionary theory and Biblical creation do not contradict only if you ignore (or take less literally) the first few chapters of Genesis.

 
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OD
Pardon, where did I say it THIS way?
I’m countering two claims at once, so it might get jumbled a bit:
1. Torah wasn’t given by G-d.
2. Torah isn’t 3300 years old.
First is countered by testimony-of-millions tradition.
Second is countered by self-repairing generational-national tradition.
Not exactly the same points, but both work side by side.

thi
How come self-changing?
The older version always prevails.
Also, I did mention that it wasn’t changed by global dispersion.

PL
No, if you accept the possibility that it was created “mature”, WITH evolution “modded in”.

 
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1. Torah wasn’t given by G-d. […] is countered by testimony-of-millions tradition.

millions now? one person simply talking after another person is not two seperate testimonies.

and…what the hell are you talking about? are you suggesting a million people witnessed the hand of God reaching down and handing Moses a book? come on now.

you’re just talking gibberish.

2. Torah isn’t 3300 years old. […] is countered by self-repairing-generational tradition.

how on earth is the latter in any way disproving the former? what the hell makes you say that?

and what’s this about the age of the Torah? how is this all of a sudden relevant?

not to mention that even if existence is 6000 years old, and the Torah 3300 years, then i wonder how people did for 2700 years without the Truth.

 
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OD
1. Even more – directly talking to that very million of witnesses. :D
And I can back it up by specific commentaries, few times older than modern science.
2. Simple (and you again showed how you don’t follow MY posts).
Already Adam had some specific info, he even wrote a religious book (I don’t remember details).
Abraham is clearly shown to celebrate passover, that would take place some 400 years later.
(Before Abraham, there was no Jews; before Sinai, no Jewish nation; but already Adam was “Biblically religious”.)
Commentaries explain it in an easy way – they already had the INFO, just not the DOCUMENT.
Cue “trailer”.
(Or rather prophesy.)

 
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@somebody613:

Then please go on to tell me about how the Earth is 6,000 years old and contradicts the radiometric dating of fossils and other materials….. I think you understand what I’m trying to say here.

While Genesis, taken literally, does not contradict evolution as a process, it does contradict evolutionary theory which goes back a few billion years.

 
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PL
Were you ignoring my answer that it COULD have been created “mature” at ANY non-historically-documented moment, be it 6000 years or 6 billions years.
Thus, nothing scientific can dis/prove the “modding” that could take place at any time.
I just assume it took the place and form at the time and form of Genesis.
Nothing contradicts me for REAL.
Only “it must be so, I don’t accept otherwise” personal opinions.
Not science.
Cue time machine again, again and again.
(And virtual worlds.)

 
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@somebody613:

Well, then it occurs to me that you have the mindset that, “anything could happen at anytime.” While that might be true and the reality we’re living in could be a farce, that doesn’t mean that God probably did this “modding” that you speak of. You can’t disprove it, but you can’t prove it through observation either, so why act as if it happened like that?

You might as well believe in orange fairy unicorns that excrete pixie dust and rainbows — it’s the same concept.

 
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It is much more believable and less fantastic that the world and the universe ARE indeed very old than that it was created already looking very old, because the latter requires an assumption.
Example: It is much more believable and less fantastic that the Sun is very hot than that it is cold, but emits special radiation that heats other stuff after a few miles, because the latter requires an assumption.
Example 2: It is much more believable and less fantastic that gravity is due to mass compressing time and space than that it only looks that way, but it are in fact magical elves with strings that pull things down, because the latter requires an assumption.

 
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Basically something can only remain unchanged if the original wording remains unchanged and if the original explanation is still present since the explanations is passed on orally it will have permanently changed the meaning of the text itself (which things are important which things aren’t is stoning still ok or does the no killing rule precede it (something I hope we have changed our views on over the last 2000+- years)).

 
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PL
Except I have clear references to clear events at clear time and in a clear way, not “anything anytime anyhow”.
Fairies don’t have it.

BB
Occam’s biasness at play again.
Not gonna answer this time.

thi
And that’s what I was talking about the entire time.
Tradition/commentaries explain that Written “code” and its Oral “password” were both given to Moses, who transmitted both of them down the chain till today.
How much do you know of Jewish Oral Torah (which was actually put to writing 2000 years ago, but always re-applied to “modern times”) to claim so?
And why do you think you know more than me to argue? :D

 
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Creationism is a false reality.
Evolution is the most obvious reality to life, because we have proof.

Creationism
It is fake because we have no facts besides a book that tells the “History” of our creation was from an old guy that floated on a cloud. We did not all come from Adam and Eve. There is no proof they existed. There is no proof Jesus existed.

In my mind, I think creationism and belief in God was just a fraud idea “priests” came up with in the Rennasaince age so they could become a powerful force, using stupid civilians as their pawns.

Evolution
We have DNA, bones, feathers, and all sorts of other things to elaborate upon to show that we came from cells, and evolved into other creatures. We have advanced technology today, and we can tell when an ancient fossilised piece of skin or bone was from, and what it came from. We can’t read a bible and have proof that we were created by “God”.

If you believe in creationism you are a blind idiot.

 
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Occam’s Razor is an extremely logical ideology. If you saw a trashcan on a school and a paper ball on the ground next to it – and you HAD to make a choice from two options – would you choose:

  • A) Someone threw the ball and missed the trashcan
  • B) All of the trash can’s atoms moved 40cm to the right with exact perfection at the same time
    Hmmm, I think it’s pretty obvious that you’d choose B. And that’s why all of us think you’re pretty stupid.
 
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I know there is a oral “password” but as this has passed on over 2000 years it’s unlikely to be in it’s original version.
And if it is it’s very much out of date by now there are basically 2 options
1 it hasn’t changed meaning that if the book is correct some parts of it are 6000 years out of date.
2 it has changed meaning that some parts are no longer the word of god meaning that while the general message still applies (especially the moral lessons) some parts of it are completely open to alternative interpretation and the application of common sense in how to follow them (I prefer this version but it’s your choice).
If I’m missing an option tell me.

 
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MWC
I’ve said enough before, thus ignored.

BB
And extremely biased towards human logic capabilities.
There’s no way B can’t happen for SOME UNKNOWN reason (including a hidden mechanism that disintegrated the next second without any traces) – but you PRESUPPOSE only A.
This is where we differ – I don’t presuppose stuff as “the only possible truth”.
I assume both are equal – and then choose the one I like more.
Anyways, human logic is failing to grasp spiritual reality – but you are promptly forgetting that we DON’T always use “logic” nor are ALL our senses based on it.
Cue emotions and intuition, at least.

thi
Why?
Cause YOU so said?
Cue self-repairing tradition, where EVERY child is supposed to start learning both the code and the password at school age.
(And it WAS so till maybe 100 years ago, but it still applies to some families and a lot of grown-ups.)
Interestingly enough, EVERYTHING “modern” gets EVALUATED through the “old” understanding being APPLIED to the new stuff.
Thus, for example, electricity was forbidden to use on Sabbath, cause it resembles fire.
In other words, the tradition keeps the RULES, but applies them to all EVENTS.
Also, Judaism WAS always “open to interpretations” (read a PAGE of Talmud, you’ll see a load of opposite opinions), but this has to be done “according to the rules” (which ARE known, especially to those that are learned enough to start applying them to “real stuff”).
You’re not missing options, you are simply unfamiliar with Judaism’s self-improving (“evolving” :DDD) mechanisms.
I am, though.
Not much, but the general rules are enough to understand that you are wrong.

 
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The basic point is that if the meaning is allowed to change does that not mean that it is ok to change parts of the meaning? If rules have been added and probably and forgotten does that not mean that perhaps it’s also ok to alter the part around the creation of earth?