Creation vs. Evolution page 25

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The “God set everything in motion” version is the official line of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and I believe the Pope as well. The variant where humans were created separately is a new one to me.

Christianity has always been very flexible and adaptable to new ideas,and has a long history of taking the line of least resistance. Many pagan ideas and especially festivals have been incorporated, because it’s easier than trying to eliminate them. It keeps the plebs happy as well. So there’s no reason for them not to adapt to new scientific ideas.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

The “God set everything in motion” version is the official line of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and I believe the Pope as well. The variant where humans were created separately is a new one to me.

Christianity has always been very flexible and adaptable to new ideas,and has a long history of taking the line of least resistance. Many pagan ideas and especially festivals have been incorporated, because it’s easier than trying to eliminate them. It keeps the plebs happy as well. So there’s no reason for them not to adapt to new scientific ideas.

But thats mostly from a time where the Church was able to change and still tell the plebes that the pope was infallible and it had always been this way. Its a bit harder now a days where the plebes can read.

 
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I also don’t think that this flexibility is inherently a falsification of religions, logically. (Practically, I find it hilarious that anyone would tote the words of a book that cannot possibly resemble it’s original form.) There are next to zero scientific claims within religious texts, and those claims that are made are either accurate, or show their lack of information at the time. There’s no reason, assuming the Bible is relatively accurate, that these events couldn’t have happened in entirely scientifically valid ways, but the people of the age weren’t capable of discerning these truths because of their lack of scientific understanding. It’s the same reason distances in the bible are so inconsistent: Not because the people didn’t travel between the cities, but because their methods of navigation were less than ideal for mountains and valleys.

I have no idea why you would expect an ancient civilization of herders and farmers to make accurate scientific observations about seemingly fantastic events? Furthermore, why you would demand the efficacy of a story about the creation of the universe, which wasn’t observed by any human but only relayed through a claim made by one guy. (that is challenged by a completely alternate creation story from a different guy.) Because a single person said the world was created in 6 days, because he was somehow influenced by God to say as much, an entire group of people demand that this number be true?

As a weak atheist, I think that the truth is probably far more interesting without offending scientific understandings. I want to believe there are things out there that we may not understand yet, I just don’t like when people try to make hard claims using the worlds biggest game of telephone as a source.

 
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I think it does a great disservice to the Faith of those who believe in God to label them all creationists. The Christian Faith acknowledges the physical body as Earthly, and a relationship with God through Christ as transcendent.

The body is subject to natural laws. The Spirit is subject to spiritual laws.
Creationism is more about politics and mass manipulation than it is about the salvation of the soul. That’s the nature of organized religion as a whole.

 
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I think it does a great disservice to the Faith of those who believe in God to label them all creationists.

Normally when the term ‘creationist’ is used, it is used to define those folks that believe in a God that created everything literally according to the word of the Bible and we rode around on dinosaurs. Those people most definitely do a disservice to religion and humanity.

But the term ‘creation’ is what religious people believe happened, you yourself Azolf are a Christian and you believe that everything was created by God. Now you may not be in with the ‘young earth creationists’, but you do believe in a Creator and creation.
I think we should more often use ‘young earth creationist’ to differ between religious people that accept evolution and the nut-jobs that don’t.

I’m not sure if you want to get into “the existence of a soul” debate…I myself think of the word more as an abstract idea used by poets and philosophers…but not as an actual entity.

 
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I’m a little bemused by the attitude of posters who seem to think that they have the intellectual high ground merely by virtue of not believing in God. My faith in Jesus is the result of years of academic study and personal experience. Whether or not God created the world, and even more importantly how if He did, is not a point upon which my personal salvation and sanctification is based.

Throw the whole Old Testament out the window and burn the letters of Paul, and we’re left with the account of the life of Jesus of Nazareth. An account I have read over and over again. A story I have believed, disbelieved, believed, denied, and believed again and again.

I have scoured language resources and the historical significance of this man, the things he did and said, and the context in which he did them. He spoke out against the corruption of religion, he was totally indifferent toward the government, and he was a friend of societal rejects and “sinners”. There is very little not to like about him, and I believe he came to save us from the corruptible nature of the physical universe.

That to me is more important than how it was made or who made it.

 
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That to me is more important than how it was made or who made it.

Then this thread is not for you.

This is a Creation vs Evolution thread.

Also, if you are a Christian and don’t believe that God created the Universe and you…then what do you believe??? I’m not able to understand a different way of applying God to the equation.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:
That to me is more important than how it was made or who made it.

Then this thread is not for you.

This is a Creation vs Evolution thread.

It seemed relevant to the ongoing discussion so I made it general instead of a direct response.
Have a good night bro. Im’a crash.

 
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I would of hoped you’d of answered my question :(

“If you are a Christian and don’t believe that God created the Universe and you…then what do you believe??? I’m not able to understand a different way of applying God to the equation.”

But night anyway.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

I would of hoped you’d of answered my question :(

“If you are a Christian and don’t believe that God created the Universe and you…then what do you believe??? I’m not able to understand a different way of applying God to the equation.”

But night anyway.

I’m not saying that I don’t believe God created the Universe. I’m saying whether or not he did is irrelevant to achieving a relationship with God through faith in Jesus. Believing that God made the Earth doesn’t make you a Christian. Believing in Jesus is what makes you a Christian.

Hope that helps.

 
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I’m saying whether or not he did is irrelevant to achieving a relationship with God through faith in Jesus.

But it’s one the foundations of Christianity…that God created You in His image. I don’t see how creation could be irrelevant to Christianity. If God didn’t create you…then why is he your God? Why do you worship him?

Your answer confuses me more.

 
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FWW
This is what you get by replacing the IDEA with its IMAGE

Azolf
You do remember, there are THREE parts in your equation – not just the “baby” one???

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

FWW
This is what you get by replacing the IDEA with its IMAGE

What do we get by replacing the IDEA with its IMAGE?
Are you refering to my previous post where I said “God created You in his image”?
Are you playing semantics again?

 
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FWW
Not quite.
I had in mind your answer to Azolf AND his post.
Meaning, his claim that he can be a Christian “without anything but believing in J”.
On which you clearly asked: “What about G-d? As in, how can one be a Christian and NOT believe in the Creator?”
On which I in turn said: “This is what you get by implementing J. over G.”
Not exactly what Azolf said about himself, but pretty much what I do seem to feel from SOME “Christians”…

 
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Oh, you’re talking about Christians believing Jesus is God. Now I understand your reply…as abstract as it was.
Well whether you’re a Christian, Jew, or Muslim…the creation of Man and Earth by God is a fundemental concept.
I find it strange that Azolf would try to tip-toe around it.

 
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FWW
Well, he said it in a “maybe” way, so I wouldn’t accuse HIM of that.
But I’ve seen/read people that DO believe this way, as in “praying to J. as/instead of G.”
Which is exactly my point above.
There’s one thing I really like in Islam over Christianity – they didn’t make their founder into a “demigod”.
Sorry for sounding offensive, but that very idea is truly RIDICULOUS.
And having in mind that for nearly 2k years they were blaming the Jews for DEICIDE
Simply reminds me, how Abraham (in one midrashic story) taught his father (Terach, who was an idol-seller) about idolatry’s uselessness:
While being “home alone”, he smashed all but the biggest one, put some food at its feet and later claimed that it “broke all others out of jealousy”.
His father got furious: “But they can’t even WALK!”
“Aha!” – said Abraham.
(As in, “so why do you WORSHIP them?”)
I’m not comparing Christianity to idolatry – I’m just saying that some of them do gravitate towards misplacing their faith…
Whatever.

 
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I don’t get why you guys harped on Somebody for still believing in God after accepting the legitimacy of evolution in this thread. I also don’t get why you’re misunderstanding Azolf’s perfectly reasonable arguments about faith instead of reason. The only disagreeable thing I have read in the last page or so is that faith could ever possibly be called “wrong” by another person of faith.

 
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Excuse me while I try to use some of your reasoning.
Why are the Christians ridiculous for believing the Jesus is God? They have proof that he is the Messiah. He fulfilled all of their prophecies.
He rose from the dead and appeared to many witnessess. I don’t see how you can discredit the Christians belief so off-hand while still maintaning that your belief is right.
You both have equal arguments, how does your argument trump theirs?

 
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FWW
M. =/= G.
My point exactly.
Messiah is akin to “the greatest Prophet”, which is what Judaism says about Moses AND the future Messiah, while Muslems probably say so about Mohamed.
I wouldn’t argue if anyone called Jesus “the greatest Prophet of Christianity” – but NOT a god.
(Hint: Yes, “god”, not G-d. Physical avatars are incompatible with true monotheism. You can defy my opinion, not gonna change the actual terminology.)

BSG
Some (and I said it to them already) evolutionists are too inclined to “proselytize” Atheism, exactly like some other RELIGIONISTS
They won’t stop until “the logic wins”, aka “idiots discard their stupid religious beliefs and embrace the TRUE faith of LOGIC”.
Hehehe… :DDDDD

 
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Oh Somebody….you know very well the Christians don’t consider Jesus as a prophet like Moses. Christians view Jesus as God, the Son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. So, how are they wrong? As I have said before, Christians believe they have enough proof to make this claim that Jesus is God.
So…
I don’t see how you can discredit the Christians belief so off-hand while still maintaning that your belief is right.
(Whether Chrisitianity is a “true” monotheistic religion or not is irrelevant.)

 
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FWW
I merely expressed my opinion and backed it up by some common sense: why worship (aka put your trust in) something that can be killed by humans (or can’t even move/defend itself, like in the story about Abraham)?
Thus, while I have no problem with each religion having their own Great Prophets (sounded like Civ…), I’m totally ridiculing the idea of having a killable “god”, be it of flesh or stone and wood.
Sounds simply too stupid, SORRY.
OK, I’m quitting this topic, before someone feels it to be too offensive – I’m not attacking PEOPLE, just ridiculing incoherent ideas.

 
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But Jesus couldn’t be killed. They tried it and he came back. That’s the whole point. (That doesn’t, by the way, make him a zombie)

 
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Ok, at least you know how I feel about all religions now —→ “Sounds simply too stupid, SORRY

Judaism, for me, is on the same level as Christianity when it comes to “incoherent ideas.”

(Just one last thing. I thought you would of known the stroy of Jesus rising from the dead. I’m surprised that you weren’t aware of that.)

 
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FWW
Read below.
One of the reasons Jews don’t accept him EVEN as a Messiah, is that he was killed FOR GOOD.
(If he rose later – WHERE is he now? Or WHY are you still awaiting his ambiguous SECOND coming?)

Benu
I don’t see him around, do you? :D
The whole “he’ll be back” reminds me of Terminator, kinda. :D
But if seriously, my point still stands.
I’d expect some more resistance/powers from an acclaimed deity.
I know at least a few TV characters to be way more impressive/strong/unkillable, while being mere mutants or aliens (or even humans), not “gods”.
Oh, and before you start with “but he performed miracles!”, should I remind you of Moses and the extent of HIS miracles?
Yet, Moses never claimed to be anything BUT human, even if a chosen one.
To sum up, SCRIPT HOLES… :DDD

 
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Somebody, I don’t see your God around either!
I guess Judaism and Christianity are equal now.

And do you really need people to clue you in on Christian beliefs or do you really not understand the whole “The Scarifice of Jesus” thing? Heck, I’m an atheist, but even I know and understand what whole meaning of the crucifixtion was.