Athiests Filing A Lawsuit On The 9/11 Workers To Remove The Steel Cross page 3

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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Good and Evil are subjective.

True and False are not.

Yet we as humans can’t determine if anything is true or false.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:

Oh wait, you don’t have any symbols besides a meaningless A being orbited by electrons because atheism isn’t a belief system and the lack of having a belief isn’t an identity in itself at all in any way shape or form?

I love how you get to decide what is meaningful.

The Bitchy American Atheists should work towards getting a symbol of peace and unity in there that they feel more appropriately addresses their sensitivities instead of lording their aversion to symbols onto others.

You sound really ‘bitchy’.

And for you not to see that the cross is excluding a lot of people and being used solely as a symbol of Christianity here, on this public site, where so many people of many religions died, is just plain denial.

 
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Yeah, I’m in denial because I refuse to feign personal offense at a piece of rubble resembling a significant symbol to a great deal of people being treasured as an artifact of the tragedy and put on display at the museum/memorial that neither claims to represent the whole, nor has expressly denied symbolism from other groups (even if their particular belief wasn’t represented in the smouldering rubble and bodies people sifted through to find said cross.) Sorry I don’t see that as prejudice, a personal attack, or a conflict of government and religious interests. Sorry I don’t want to be associated with the exact same lording and control theists leverage against non-religious people.

There should be no references to Judaism at the holocaust memorial, since more than Jews died there. They should have a neutral statement about how people of many faiths died, and some of them might even be atheists! Let’s demand sports stadiums have every flag, or none of the flags since some of the people in that stadium might not be Americans or Canadians.

How do we stop theists in our country from adequately mourning or having a culture amongst many? Apparently this is the goal of atheism.

Edit: By the way Flabby, you rarely address the actual contents of a post. I don’t know why I even responded to that half-assed post. You’re right, the point of that sentence was that they were being bitchy, not that they should do something of actual significance besides shitting on other people’s significance.

 
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And for you not to see that the cross is excluding a lot of people and being used solely as a symbol of Christianity here

It was found in the rubble. Regardless of it being a cross, a book or even a picture frame, it’s an artifact and should be kept to forever remember that grim day of September 11, 2001. If it’s really that much of a problem, get pissed off at the people who made the building since it couldn’t have fallen to the shape of a Star of David.

How do we stop theists in our country from adequately mourning or having a culture amongst many? Apparently this is the goal of atheism.

As much as I’d like to agree, I cannot. Just like atheists (on the internet mostly) think that all people who are religous go “ALL HOMOSEXUALS SHOULD DIE! SEE, LEVITCUS blah blah blah…”, there are many atheists who are tolerant and respectful of anothers belief, and it’d be wrong to assume all atheists are barbarians who want anarchy to reign or something crazy like that.

 
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Yeah, sorry, that last sentence is sarcasm. I do not believe that’s the goal of atheism at all, in fact I don’t think atheism implies a goal but is simply a technical description of a person’s beliefs, or lack thereof. Any implication of ideology is personal and not shared by the whole.

 
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Yeah, sorry, that last sentence is sarcasm.

Psh, I knew that…aha…screw it, this is SD, who am I kidding?

 
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There should be no references to Judaism at the holocaust memoria, since more than Jews died there.l

First off which holocaust memorial?
If the holocaust memorial is on public land, then yes the memorial should identify EVERY race/group that was specficially targeted. But I don’t see how you can compare the specific targetting and genocide of a specfic race to the indiscriminate terrorist murders of 9/11. The Jews were mostly singled out and put to death, they were singled out because of their religion. The 9/11 victims were not singled out because they were Christian or any other religion…so your argument that there should be “no references to Judaism at a holocaust memorial” if we don’t allow the cross at Ground Zero is flawed.

Let’s demand sports stadiums have every flag, or none of the flags since some of the people in that stadium might not be Americans or Canadians.

Sigh, what are you going on about? That is just an awful argument.

How do we stop theists in our country from adequately mourning or having a culture amongst many? Apparently this is the goal of atheism.

Who said anthing about stopping theists from mourning? Religious groups can put up religious icons on their own private land. And your last sentence again is just awful. The apparent goal of atheism? This actually has very little to do with atheism, but with respecting all the faiths and groups of people that were lost in 9/11…not just the Christians.

By the way Flabby, you rarely address the actual contents of a post.

Then we have mutual feelings.

not that they should do something of actual significance besides shitting on other people’s significance.

Your strange belief that atheists are there solely to “shit on other peoples significance” is once again an awful assumption.
The atheists here have a genuine grievance that this huge cross being placed on the public grounds of Ground Zero is discriminatory.

 
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When religions were violent, it had nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with some fuck getting rich on unaware or grieving people.

So, being a great tool for fuck’s to manipulate people to kill one another so they can get rich, doesn’t still seem like a problem for you? Impressionable people are scary, the religions ones tend to wave that flag about a little harder.

I have some serious problems with most theocratic bents. As a whole, they’ve got some pretty serious holes. Strike one. Then, despite these problems, they generally claim to be infallible and demand respect. Orthodoxy, of any sort, also scary. Strike two. Then, they seem to have a rather large segment of just about any population anywhere gunning for them. Strike three. They do what they’re told, they’re big, and they’re pushy at best. Scary stuff all around.

So, like others, I do not support the enshrining of a cross on public land. It’s not a neutral symbol, and whether its creation as an artifact was an accident of circumstance or not it’s veneration as a public monument cannot claim to be the whimsy of fate. Why not just turn it sideways, or I know, upside down? Because a cross is a cross, and it is no accident or coincidence that it is being to represent that. I get that alot of people would, indeed, like a cross. That it makes themselves feel comfy and think of good things. Too bad. It’s a slap in the face of everyone who does not find the cross a comfy symbol, it’s a big rubber stamp on state franchised religious expression. Part of actually being a secular state is not reacting to every single thing through religious lenses.

Christians were not a victim group here, Christians were not the specialist little snow flakes to ever die here, Christians do not have a special privilege in spending tax dollars to express their religious bent to situations on everyone elses tax dollars.

 
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I found myself in two minds when this one came up, so I just sat back and followed the argument.

My initial response was that American Atheists was being extremely small minded about this, unable to bring themselves to live and let live. But then I did a bit of reading.

Now finding two steel beams attached at right angles is hardly surprising at a site where two gigantic buildings constructed largely from steel beams intersecting at right angles collapsed. But immediately it was seized upon by those of the christian faith as being particularly significant. That reminds me of those stories we sometimes read where someone finds a bit of mouldy bread that looks vaguely like a man with a beard…so it must be Jesus, hallelujah. There was absolutely nothing special about those beams. I see it has spawned a bit of an industry. Two other similar beams were given to the Knights of Columbus and to the Society of the Atonement, so it is very clear that they are being regarded as religious symbols. A nearby church is selling replica lapel pins and similar goods – that brings to mind the way the catholic church used to sell so-called religious relics to naive and gullible peasants. One catholic priest decared this cross to be a symbol of hope, faith and healing. Well actually it’s not – to many people in the world, including some who died in the attack, it’s a symbol of aggression. Yeah, I know the crusades date back 800 years and it’s about time they got over it, but that’s not what this thread is all about. The cross has also been blessed by a christian priest.

We had our own islamic terrorist attack in London. Three trains and a bus were blown up during the morning rush hour on 7th July 2005. 52 people died, many more were injured. But we managed to come up with a memorial which was a bit more neutral and low key and less likely to offend anyone.

So I now find myself in the “let’s move it to a church” camp. There is no question that it has been pushed as a christian religious symbol, and it’s too late for anyone to pretend that it is anything else. It simply does not represent all the victims, because it was misrepresented in the first place.

 
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So Flabby, once again. Do you think that all of the loved ones of victims don’t like and object to the Ground Zero Mosque?
Should we dig up the graves in Arlington Nat. and move them somewhere private? It sure as fuck pissed off the Christians, but they put it there, the Mosque. You know, its mighty fine for any religion, Hindu, Muslim, whatever, to do things, but when a Christian says something, the media is ballistic! Another question, for you Athiests: Do you say, Oh my God!!" or , “OMG”?

 
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The ‘Ground Zero’ Mosque isn’t at Ground Zero. It’s multiple blocks away. The naming was purely the result of the anti-Islam attitude taken by a lot of ignorant talking-heads and their flocks of sheeple. The Mosque is privately owned.

As for Arlington, it’s already been pointed out that many different religions, as well as Atheism, are being represented; and that it’s only done in recognition of the religion of the buried, not as a blanket government use of a symbol specific to one religion.

 
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You guys act like it’s a white room with a cross in the middle with a baseplate that says “allahs mom is fat.” I’d get it if they were raising a monument over new york with a cross on it or something, but it’s just going to be in a case that says how important it was to Christians that died there among many other artifacts and stories. It’d be like saying there shouldn’t be a Japanese flag from a suicide bomber’s jacket at a WWII memorial. It’s part of the history of the event now, it isn’t some idolization of one religion over all others.

 
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It is when it’s being identified as a religious artefact; and displayed above any other arbitrary pile of rubble.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:

You guys act like it’s a white room with a cross in the middle with a baseplate that says “allahs mom is fat.” I’d get it if they were raising a monument over new york with a cross on it or something, but it’s just going to be in a case that says how important it was to Christians that died there among many other artifacts and stories. It’d be like saying there shouldn’t be a Japanese flag from a suicide bomber’s jacket at a WWII memorial. It’s part of the history of the event now, it isn’t some idolization of one religion over all others.

Well is it? That’s not how the stuff I read seems to be presenting it. It’s always hard to get to the truth in the middle of a heated argument, and the press can be less than reliable at the best of times. But it was my impression that the museum is trying to use this item as a symbol for everybody, when it has already been hijacked by the christian faction. My first post was just a long winded way of saying that it can’t be a christian symbol and a universal symbol at the same time, you can’t have your cake and eat it.

I am really not too bothered about what happens in New York, as my home city managed to produce a memorial relating to a similar event that was somewhat less contoversial and appeared to satisfy everybody. Nonetheless, it would be nice to get to the bottom of this argument. For the moment I shall revert to being open minded about this.

 
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Originally posted by ThetaPrime01400:

So Flabby, once again. Do you think that all of the loved ones of victims don’t like and object to the Ground Zero Mosque?

Is this so called “ground zero” mosque on private or public land? Are the people building this mosque as a celebration to 9/11…are the people building this mosque the terrorists the performed 9/11?

Should we dig up the graves in Arlington Nat. and move them somewhere private?

The Arlington graves are, as someone already pointed out, represntative of each INDIVIDUALS faith, it’s not just crosses there.

It sure as fuck pissed off the Christians, but they put it there, the Mosque. You know, its mighty fine for any religion, Hindu, Muslim, whatever, to do things, but when a Christian says something, the media is ballistic!

Poor you. But lets keep this in perspective. Public land is PUBLIC land…separation of State and Church is what is being argued here.
Another question, for you Athiests: Do you say, Oh my God!!" or , “OMG”?

I say a lot of things as expletives.
Originally posted by TheBSG:

You guys act like it’s a white room with a cross in the middle with a baseplate that says “allahs mom is fat.” I’d get it if they were raising a monument over new york with a cross on it or something, but it’s just going to be in a case that says how important it was to Christians that died there among many other artifacts and stories. It’d be like saying there shouldn’t be a Japanese flag from a suicide bomber’s jacket at a WWII memorial. It’s part of the history of the event now, it isn’t some idolization of one religion over all others.

Why did you bring Allah into this? Which person here that is against the cross cried about this being an insult to Allah? Why do make up terrible analogies? Why do put words into other peoples mouths?

And it very much is idolisation of one religion over all others…it’s been in prayer ceremonies…it is being ‘displayed’ with a very religous overtone not befitting a public memorial to all the victims of 9/11.

 
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@^
The melodramtic accentuation of religious idolatry being associated with the phenomenon of such publicized overcast is just a personal matter. It’s only legally unconstitutional if the state enforces it by legislation. There’s a vast distinction between compulsary actions and strictly optional “volunteering”. In one case, you have to attend, but, with the latter, you are free to go as you please. Thus, it follows that your point does not violate its purported nature of usurping the validity of the aformentioned cross in the context of official constitution as imposed in American law since the celebration of the cross in question is done on a purely personal pivot.

 
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The display of the cross violates the principles of liberals, not the law.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

The display of the cross violates the principles of liberals, not the law.

You mean the one where they must all be atheists, except not at all?

 
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I’m not sure what you’re talking about there tenco.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I’m not sure what you’re talking about there tenco.

I thought it made a lot of sense. Let me rephrase:

You: Stupid accusation.
Tenco1: Intentionally stupid accusation.

Seriously though, the display of the cross insults a specific group of atheists. Trying to say that they represent all liberals is ridiculous, especially since the only common view most of the members likely have relates to atheism.

I might as well claim that the Westboro Baptist Church represents the views of conservatives.

 
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It’s not a crucifix, it’s a totally ambiguous cross. People mourned the loss of their loved ones around it, wrote messages on it, and left items by it. It became a symbol of hope to a lot of people, whether they followed Jesus or not.

 
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It’s there, just let it stay. It would make a big mess to move it, and it would make a bigger mess to remove it. Might as well leave it where it stands.

 
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Originally posted by Sikesalicous:

It’s there, just let it stay. It would make a big mess to move it, and it would make a bigger mess to remove it. Might as well leave it where it stands.

That’s not a good reason. In all honesty, it’s a rather silly one.

 
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Originally posted by Azolf:

A little research on the cross is a Wikipedia away.

It’s not a crucifix, it’s a totally ambiguous cross. People mourned the loss of their loved ones around it, wrote messages on it, and left items by it. It became a symbol of hope to a lot of people, whether they followed Jesus or not.

I’m a little disgruntled however that they overlooked the girder in the shape of a giant A.
You know, the one people gathered around angrily for years, blaming religion and the government for what happened.

The cross was extant before the initiation of Christianity. I honesty don’t know why people disparage the displayed cross as being religiously motivated in general concensus when there is no actual reason to believe so in the first place. For one, the government never officialized certain ideologies about the portrayal and, as well put by Azolf, all kinds of people are welcome to use the cross in any way they please as a means of remembrance and celebration.

 
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The cross was extant before the initiation of Christianity. I honesty don’t know why people disparage the displayed cross as being religiously motivated in general concensus when there is no actual reason to believe so in the first place.

Some people disparage the displayed cross as being religiously motivated because displaying it was originally religiously motivated. Didn’t you read about how certain christians, including the Church, hijacked this relic as if its shape was of special significance, when to many of the people involved in this tragedy its shape meant nothing?

If it is going to be displayed at all, it needs an accompanying video to explain how one religious group used this item to push their own agenda while completely ignoring the feelings of many of their fellow victims.

Or better still, it could be taken to the nearest scrapyard to be cut up, melted down and forgotten before one of the death threats being issued by gun toting redneck “followers of Jesus” actually becomes a reality.