U.S. Presidential Election page 33 (locked)

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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Yes, those damn foreigners. How dare they pretend to know anything about US politics, or make hypothetical arguments on an internet game forum! Dastardly!

How would a foreigner feel if an American insulted one of their prominent leaders and wished for them to die at the same time not knowing anything about their own politics. It’s wrong when America doesn’t mind it’s own business and it’s wrong when foreign countries don’t mind their own business. Keep the Hungarian George Soros out of American politics.

 
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No, it’s wrong with America blatantly interferes with another country’s government. It’s not wrong for Americans to criticize another country / gov’t, or foreigners to criticize America or its gov’t. In fact, it’s pretty well retarded to think it’s wrong. Especially considering how far the US constitution takes free speech.

 
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And that’s why you have to vote third party. Enough with the bipartisan monotony of war and the killings of people. Vote antiestablishment.

Utilitarian calculations aside, neither leader has proven to have the cajones to slap Israel down.

No Democrat or Republican president ever will. Washington would never want to break the ties with Israel.

And no, you don’t care about human life when you wish longingly for one to end.

Beginning your argument with some of the ol’ misrepresentation. I haven’t “lingingly” wished for Romney dead. However, it is true that there are better Republicans out there whom would be able to serve better for America. There are also more Republicans who’d actually have a chance at winning the election.

That’s the kind of talk that brings the Secret Service to your door should you ever become an American.

I love this argument. I love how you are saying that as if it were a good thing, or at least that’s what I get from that statement. Trust, I will never go live in America; much less of a chance for me to become a citizen. I am a proud non-American. I am proud that my country doesn’t continue to overthrow democracies and massacre civilians.

What are you implying? Seemingly, you have a pride for the lack of free speech in your country. You can alledgedly say whatever you want, unless it is against the establishment of the government.

You, as a dawning utilitarian, should recognize stifling Iran now saves far more bloodshed than if we allow them to become more and more powerful.

Again, France is becoming more and more powerful. Why not attack them? The UK is doing the same. As is North Korea; as is China; as is Japan. You know why? Because attacking any of those countries would essentially create a World War III. However, attacking Iran (one of three Shia countries, and the only powerful Shia country today) will be easy for Israel and the United States. Hardly anyone will come to the aid of that country—because it hardly has any allies. It becomes easy to attack them, since they will have no escape from the massacre; they will have no way of evading the United States’ plans for annihilation.

2) So it’s Bush’s fault that the intel brought to the UN was faulty – got it.

Rightio, chap. Keep strawmanning as you are, mate.

1) North Korea can’t build a missile that can 17 feet – it doesn’t have nukes.

First of all, North Korea IS becoming more powerful by the day. The only reason America today will never attack North Korea is because China actually would have a chance at kicking the United States’ ass. North Korea has a VERY powerful ally. The thing here is: Iran does not. Hence, it is easy for the United States to annihilate them.

Also, you completely missed the point. The United States will in no way or manner attack a country with powerful allies. Yet it feels compelled to destroy Iran. In interviews of Ahmadinejad in the American video his words will be cut or not fully aired in order to make the American public more easily disagree with him and his country. Why do you want another Iraq war? Honest question, since it will be very similar to Iraq. Except the fact that Iran is much more powerful and thus more American soldiers will die.

How old are you? If you are nearly 18 or between 18 and 25 you will possibly be killed. That’s your government’s plan for you. I do, however, recommend two things: a) stop jingoistically supporting the United States militarily and voice your opposition for the killings of American soldiers (something which can be evaded by not being involved or commencing a war); b) go to your local fast food restaurant and eat like crazy (if you’re overweight and unfit you won’t become involved yourself in the war).

Based on?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67d_1349230061
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/21/iraq-wmd-poll-clueless-vast-majority-republicans_n_1616012.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9GAqVT_C_U&feature=related

Iran wants to eliminate all Jews from the face of the Earth.

Israel does pretty much the same, except for Palestine. You have also many Israelis against Iran and anything Islamic.

Israel wants to save their people’s lives.

You forget that Iran won’t attack Israel unless Israel attacks them. Israel rejoices in the Middle East. Israelis live much better and safer lives than nearby Middle Eastern countries.

Moreover, they don’t necessarily want to “save their people’s lives”. That statement holds true for Israelis of Jewish/Israeli descent. However, Palestinians living in Palestine and Palestinians living in Israel are not exactly “saved” by the government of Israel. Blacks in Israel have the same problem, to a lesser extent; as do others whom are not Jewish/Israeli.

far too many people point to the blood being spilled by Israel and see it as the aggressor despite the fact it has enemies that will not settle for anything less then it’s total destruction.

Such as the “total destruction” by the state of Israel committed on Palestinians and Palestine?

Netanyahu: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/27/us-un-assembly-israel-iran-idUSBRE88Q0GI20120927

Also, please explain to me why Israel is allowed to have nuclear bombs but Iran is not.

I cannot fathom anyone even considering voting for Obama again.

Keep unfathoming it because Obama is going to win the election, no matter what you do or say.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Yes, those damn foreigners. How dare they pretend to know anything about US politics, or make hypothetical arguments on an internet game forum! Dastardly!

I love how a lot of the conservative here seem to think Jaume committed some kind of crime. Before you make a big stink (ah, shit, too late), maybe you should reread what he said. It’s a far cry from a threat.

We don’t count Canadians as foreigners.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

No, it’s wrong with America blatantly interferes with another country’s government. It’s not wrong for Americans to criticize another country / gov’t, or foreigners to criticize America or its gov’t. In fact, it’s pretty well retarded to think it’s wrong. Especially considering how far the US constitution takes free speech.

Distinction between what you said and what I actually said. I believe it is wrong that the American government interferes with other country’s affairs for example the unnecessary wars. That wasn’t what JaumeBG did. He personally attacked an American politician. Instead of criticizing perhaps some of his policy proposals, he went after the person. It’s pretty well retarded to think that is right. It is a shame too, because I do agree with JaumeBG on the Israel-Palestine question. We do have freedom of speech in America but we do not have hate speech and threats.

Keep unfathoming it because Obama is going to win the election, no matter what you do or say.

Hey, stay out of American politics because Obama’s policies are going to hurt Americans not you. Only those with an IQ of a fruit fly will vote for Obama again. I gave you the facts. 8% unemployment rate for 46 weeks in a row, 9% on average, 15% real, 23 million Americans out of work or underemployed or stopped looking for work, 1 in 6 Americans in poverty, $5.3 trillion added to the national deficit, and slow GDP economic growth.

I honestly don’t understand how people can vote for Obama or why JaumeBG is fascinated with Obama… He is hurting America. Democrat or Republican this clearly is one of the worst presidencies in the modern era.

 
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We don’t count Canadians as foreigners.

Well, that’s something.

However, attacking Iran (one of three Shia countries, and the only powerful Shia country today) will be easy for Israel and the United States. Hardly anyone will come to the aid of that country—because it hardly has any allies. It becomes easy to attack them, since they will have no escape from the massacre; they will have no way of evading the United States’ plans for annihilation.

You seem to be saying here that Iran would get screwed over in a war, which is true, but then you seem to be saying later that Iran can hold its own. What would happen would be similar to the iraq war…the allies would steamroll them in a couple months. What makes Iran much more dangerous isn’t the vague possibility of nukes, it’s that it’s a legitimate islamic country, not just some muslim country run by a secular fascist. That means that there would be many more mujahideen flooding Iran and Israel to cause trouble in the chaos. At present there is no AQ in Iran, or AQ in Israel, mainly because they hate Iran and, talk aside, they don’t really care about the palestinians. This would give them a window – it would become a prime recruiting ground for transnational terrorism. We’d be effectively turning Iran into something like Pakistan, with no fixed borders, so guys can come and go as they please.

And as i say, Israel would be getting hit by guys who, up till now, were content to let Hamas lob rockets from gaza. Now they’d actually have an army. If Israel attacks, they’re just trading the possibility of war in the undefined future, to an endless war now.

We do have freedom of speech in America but we do not have hate speech and threats.

It’s not even close to hate speech. He didn’t personally threaten anyone. He made a cold, calculating suggestion that it’d be better to trade one politician’s life in exchange for a horrendously destructive war. And I’d say he’s right. He just picked the wrong politician. If he’d said that about, George W or Dick Cheney in regards to the iraq war, he’d be dead-on.

Also you might note that while this is ‘Serious’ Discussion, that doesn’t make it C-span. We’re posting on an internet game forum, the same place i’ve heard a number of posters say that Obama’s going to open up FEMA concentration camps if he gets re-elected. Calm the fuck down.

 
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Let’s all go back to the ol’ ad hominem. It seems as if only a few conservatives on this forum even know what that means. Please become erudite on what ad hominem means, as well as other logical fallacies.

The idea of nuclear weapons in the hands of a madman doesn’t appeal to me as much as it does to you apparently.

It doesn’t “appeal” to me. I, in fact, believe no country should have nuclear weapons. However, the point I was trying to make was to point out the hypocrisy: why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons? North Korea? China? Japan? Isn’t the “madman” idea subjective. I’m sure North Korea doesn’t want the United States to have nuclear weapons, but why should YOU have to listen to them. In case someone doesn’t get my point there: why is it OK for the United States to dictate who can and cannot have nuclear weapons?

Samuel L. Jackson has stated he voted for Obama because of his skin color. That is wrong and racist.

Have you not seen Samuel L. Jackson’s “Wake the F*ck Up” video? Because he there outlines where he agrees and disagree with Obama and Romney. He attacks Romney’s political viewpoints and policies—not his race.

You’re a foreigner JaumeBG

Ad hominem.

you’re not entitled to threaten anyone including politicians

I never did. Strawman, oh yeah.

so I’d suggest you be quiet

Some of the ol’ suppression and condescension. Nice.

It always infuriates me how foreigners think themselves above American politics as all knowing yet they only receive biased information from liberal sources and base their opinion off of that.

Hmm, yet you did not have such opinion before you became aware of my nationality. But now you see it as crucial? Hypocrisy, ad hominem…

I love how a lot of the conservative here seem to think Jaume committed some kind of crime.

Anything that is dissident from their political views deserves to be censored. What I love is the failure to attack my arguments instead of me.

How would a foreigner feel if an American insulted one of their prominent leaders

Hmm, because YOU know the leader of my country without looking it up. Right. Also, I wouldn’t mind as long as you backed it up with facts and arguments.

It’s wrong when America doesn’t mind it’s own business

Except wars. When America doesn’t mind its own business regarding wars and foreign policy you seem to favour that.

Keep the Hungarian George Soros out of American politics.

George Soros has American citizenship. He is as American as you are. What is that? He is an immigrant? Unless your family is Native American, your family comes from immigrants also. You seem to dislike me for “not knowing anything about America”, yet something I do know is that is was and still is founded by immigrants. Something you here forget.

I believe it is wrong that the American government interferes with other country’s affairs for example the unnecessary wars.

Oh hey, something good to come out of Darear. We can concur here.

Instead of criticizing perhaps some of his policy proposals, he went after the person.

You’ve never done that one, aye? Remember the “foreigner” thing from back in… oh wait, just 30 minutes ago. And I have criticised his policies heaps of times, and I continue to do so. All I was saying is that, as Romney said he does not know why you can’t have open windows on aeroplanes or something like that, why doesn’t he investigate for himself? I have not threatened him. And no, I will not be assassinating him, believe it or not.

Hey, stay out of American politics because Obama’s policies are going to hurt Americans not you.

Obama staying in war and continuing war DOES affect non-Americans. You should know that the United States has international relations with nearly every country in the world. And trust me, Obama or Romney do and will affect my country. They have done so, and will continue to do so.

Furthermore, I want Americans to choose whomever will best serve them. The word empathy comes to mind. I want America to prosper and become a better nation. I also want Americans who have been shot or injured or whatever to not die in the streets because of a lack of health care—as seen in third world countries—, as was the case ten years ago.

why JaumeBG is fascinated with Obama…

Meh, not quite true. The best choice for America is neither Obama nor Romney. But your electoral system does not allow for a true democracy. It never will unless you fix your constitution. Something American politicians of neither political party will do.

 
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JaumeBG you took that “foreigner” comment way out of context. I did not attack you for being a foreigner. What, is that now a racist code word? Please! I criticized you for not having facts yet instead wishing death for someone because you disagree with him especially since you’re not even American. Would you like it if I wished your leader to die without knowing much about your politics there? I like how you bring up “facts”? How is wishing someone to die a fact? It’s pure garbage and pure vitriol and it’s not needed.

Have you not seen Samuel L. Jackson’s “Wake the F*ck Up” video? Because he there outlines where he agrees and disagree with Obama and Romney. He attacks Romney’s political viewpoints and policies—not his race.
You actually believe that video as a credible argument against Romney? Wow… Goodness we have a lot to go through here. First of all, Samuel L. Jackson is pathetic for using a small girl to espouse a political opinion and teaching her the f word. Second of all, he lied and distorted nearly everything said about Romney on his tax plan.

I said to be quiet about the empty threats. Why don’t you actually discuss some of these issues rather than wasting time and energy on wishing someone to die because you don’t agree with their politics?

 
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Originally posted by Darear:
You actually believe that video as a credible argument against Romney?

Dunno, he didn’t say.

Originally posted by Darear:

JaumeBG you took that “foreigner” comment way out of context.

Which one?

I did not attack you for being a foreigner.

I don’t think he said you did, either.

I criticized you for not having facts yet instead wishing death for someone because you disagree with him especially since you’re not even American.

And why is the “not being American” so important here?

Would you like it if I wished your leader to die without knowing much about your politics there?

Well to be fair, Romney isn’t really the president yet.

Also, how is this comparable to what he said, again?

How is wishing someone to die a fact?

Strawman.

First of all, Samuel L. Jackson is pathetic for using a small girl to espouse a political opinion and teaching her the f word.

Pretty sure he didn’t need to “tech” her all that much.

I said to be quiet about the empty threats.

And where is he, again?

Why don’t you actually discuss some of these issues rather than wasting time and energy on wishing someone to die because you don’t agree with their politics?

You really are taking a liking to that strawman, aren’t you?

EDIT: No wonder this comment was removed.

Originally posted by Darear:

Learn grammar tenco1, you pathetic troll.

Wait, what are you talking about? I don’t see how my post:

… Okay, it got deleted. Weird(ish)

But anyway, I still don’t see how my post was grammatically incorrect, plus you did kind of sound like a dick when you said that, since you were basically insulting millions of Americans.

 
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The idea of nuclear weapons in the hands of a madman doesn’t appeal to me as much as it does to you apparently.

It doesn’t “appeal” to me. I, in fact, believe no country should have nuclear weapons. However, the point I was trying to make was to point out the hypocrisy: why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons? North Korea? China? Japan? Isn’t the “madman” idea subjective. I’m sure North Korea doesn’t want the United States to have nuclear weapons, but why should YOU have to listen to them. In case someone doesn’t get my point there: why is it OK for the United States to dictate who can and cannot have nuclear weapons?

Preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon would support the goal of eliminating nuclear weapons. The idea of a madman is of course subjective, but so is everything. Let’s say the general consensus in the US is that whateverhisnameis is a madman. That’s enough justification for the US to want him to not have a nuclear weapon, and in turn, enough justification for the president to do something to stop him from getting a nuclear weapon. France is becoming powerful, sure, but they line up with our values, so we have no reason to worry about them.

The best choice for America is neither Obama nor Romney. But your electoral system does not allow for a true democracy. It never will unless you fix your constitution. Something American politicians of neither political party will do.

Who is? How should we change the electoral system?

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

It’s pure garbage and pure vitriol and it’s not needed.

To be fair, Jaume, tenco, this is a subject Darear is something of an expert on.

Hypocritical considering I never started name calling and insulting until tenco1 did. I wonder why tenco1’s “comments” or rather insults got deleted.

Wait, what are you talking about? I don’t see how my post:

… Okay, it got deleted. Weird(ish)

But anyway, I still don’t see how my post was grammatically incorrect, plus you did kind of sound like a dick when you said that, since you were basically insulting millions of Americans.

Case and point. I’m getting tired of churlish users like tenco. It’s hard to ignore something so flagrantly wrong. Continue insulting and making a mockery of yourself tenco1.

 
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Originally posted by Darear:

Hypocritical considering I never started name calling and insulting until tenco1 did.

Because saying anyone who supports Obama is an idiot (repeatedly) totally isn’t an insult.

I wonder why tenco1’s “comments” or rather insults got deleted.

And I was just “pointing out” how you sounded in the same manner that you were “pointing out” that Obama supporters are as smart as fruit flies. (Yes, I’m still on that, just like you’re on me calling you a name.)

Case and point. I’m getting tired of churlish users like tenco.

And I still fail to see what was childish in my post, something that you’re being very vague with.

It’s hard to ignore something so flagrantly wrong.

Then why aren’t you saying why it’s wrong?

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by Darear:

Hypocritical considering I never started name calling and insulting until tenco1 did.

Because saying anyone who supports Obama is an idiot (repeatedly) totally isn’t an insult.

I wonder why tenco1’s “comments” or rather insults got deleted.

And I was just “pointing out” how you sounded in the same manner that you were “pointing out” that Obama supporters are as smart as fruit flies. (Yes, I’m still on that, just like you’re on me calling you a name.)

Case and point. I’m getting tired of churlish users like tenco.

And I still fail to see what was childish in my post, something that you’re being very vague with.

It’s hard to ignore something so flagrantly wrong.

Then why aren’t you saying why it’s wrong?

I did say why it’s wrong. You pick out my one insult yet didn’t see the entirety of my post. This is getting very boring though. Let’s just drop this name calling discussion. Can we at least agree on that?

 
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Originally posted by Darear:

I did say why it’s wrong.

Where, ‘cause I sure as hell didn’t.

You pick out my one insult yet didn’t see the entirety of my post.

No, I just responded to that insult, and then this discussion came up.

Let’s just drop this name calling discussion. Can we at least agree on that?

Or you could just, y’know, not respond at all, if I really am a troll like you said I was.

 
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For everyone saying to “get back on topic”: discussing foreign policy as we are IS being on topic. Foreign policy is one of the main issues facing America today, and will be the subject of the next presidential debate.

You actually believe that video as a credible argument against Romney? Wow…

I never said I did. The only reason I talked about that video was because of the accusation of Samuel L. Jackson only voting for Obama because he is racist. Whether you agree with Samuel L. Jackson or not, he outlined why he is voting for Obama in that video.

Preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon would support the goal of eliminating nuclear weapons.

OK, that sounds great. When will the United States follow those same steps and get rid of all their nuclear weapons?

and in turn, enough justification for the president to do something to stop him from getting a nuclear weapon.

Is it ethical and moral to remove or reduce someone’s power (nuclear weapons) just because you disagree with their opinions and world views?

Does a disagreement justify a possible upcoming war?

France is becoming powerful, sure, but they line up with our values, so we have no reason to worry about them.

After reading this, all I can think of is North Korea again. Their nuclear weapons or attempts to create them aren’t removed—simply because of their alliance with China. Of course, Iran has no reliable allies at all, so their future is dim—to say the least. If Iran was allies with China or France, the United States would no longer care at all about their weapons. America to put it shortly, is being a bully and a hypocrite; they will only be against some countries because they can easily take them, but other countries with alliance with the United States are completely overlooked when they have weapons.

Who is?

I wouldn’t mind Jill Stein, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, Rand Paul, Elizabeth Warren, etc. But all of them have a less than 0% chance of winning.

How should we change the electoral system?

My issue with it currently is mostly the Electoral College. To get rid of it Congress must repeal the Twelfth Amendment. It’s a circular problem here: the Democrats and Republicans mutually benefit from it and consequently will never repeal it; as both are in power they will be the only parties to be elected, further advancing their political power.

After that, a solution would be to change the first-past-the-post electoral system, since such a system ultimately must create only two parties with political power. Alternatives include: single transferable vote, multimember proportional representation, ranked voting systems, instant run-off voting, amongst other voting systems.


About Romney’s economic policy:

Why did he in the debate say he did not propose a 20% tax cut across the board even though his official campaign does? [1, 2]

And would such a tax cut work for America anyway?

 
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Darear, I’m getting a bit confused. The only thing you are saying is “don’t vote Obama”, but you’re not bringing up anything about Romney (and, indeed, you can’t compare, because all you do is saying Obama failed to entirely live up to his promises, something which doesn’t yet count for Romney), so are you arguing voting should be on Romney (and for what reason?) or a third party?

 
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After reading this, all I can think of is North Korea again. Their nuclear weapons or attempts to create them aren’t removed—simply because of their alliance with China. Of course, Iran has no reliable allies at all, so their future is dim—to say the least. If Iran was allies with China or France, the United States would no longer care at all about their weapons. America to put it shortly, is being a bully and a hypocrite; they will only be against some countries because they can easily take them, but other countries with alliance with the United States are completely overlooked when they have weapons.

It’s not hypocritical, it’s simply realist. The risk of making China mad isn’t really worth the benefit of killing N. Korea’s already established nuclear program. The risk of making almost nobody mad is worth the benefit of sabotaging Iran’s developing nuclear program. Iran has no major allies because it chooses not to. I guess I don’t see the problem with supporting your allies and being against your enemies while keeping things realistic?

My issue with it currently is mostly the Electoral College. To get rid of it Congress must repeal the Twelfth Amendment. It’s a circular problem here: the Democrats and Republicans mutually benefit from it and consequently will never repeal it; as both are in power they will be the only parties to be elected, further advancing their political power.

After that, a solution would be to change the first-past-the-post electoral system, since such a system ultimately must create only two parties with political power. Alternatives include: single transferable vote, multimember proportional representation, ranked voting systems, instant run-off voting, amongst other voting systems.

There are small benefits to the electoral college, but I agree that it’s probably not useful anymore. As crappy as only being able to pick from two people is, introducing another candidate also leads to problems

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:About Romney’s economic policy:

Why did he in the debate say he did not propose a 20% tax cut across the board even though his official campaign does? [1, 2]

And would such a tax cut work for America anyway?

No way in hell. You can’t close the budget gap if you aren’t willing to raise taxes or at least keep them at their current level. no matter how many loop holes you close if you slash taxes you WILL lower revenue. You can’t close that gap just by slashing programs that contribute to the public good. Who’s going to pick up the tab if he slashes public broadcasting funding? ether it’s quality will suffer or the middle class will have to pick up the tab with donations.

 
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edit:read Johnny be good's post below first, It addresses some of the things addressed here, and does a better job of it.
Originally posted by Darear:

Obama’s failures and broken promises:
Added $5.3 trillion in the national debt in only 4 years. (By comparison, Bush had 6% unemployment on average and added $4 trillion in 8 years)

poor comparison. Bush came into office with a surplus and immediately ditched it for less sound fiscal policy and started working towards debit. He ignored the anti terror work that Clinton had done, which resulted in thousands of lives being lost. He ran a 'criminally' mishandled war in Iraq(again it was planed well but he ignored the planning) on false pretences. where he took every opertunity to use the most expensive items. And he created but did not fund the no child left behind act. not to mention his awful non-regulatory environmentalism and banking policy that created the current crisis. So don't you DARE claim that anything bush did was better then what, ANYONE else republican or democrat could of done.
Originally posted by Darear:
Obamacare is now Obamatax being levied on the middle class.
no it isn't. It hasn't even taken effect yet, and it is funded properly. Obama cut costs in medicare by stopping the overpaying of providers. Romney claims private enterprise can do healthcare better but we pay twice as much as the next most expensive nation for healthcare and we don't have better outcomes. our healthcare system is sick. and it has been for many years now. it needs a kick.
Originally posted by Darear:
The $800 billion dollar stimulus failed to create jobs, just added to the debt.
matter for debate. it's hard to say if, and how much worse things would have been without it.
Originally posted by Darear:
1 in 6 Americans are in poverty.
nearly 1 in 6. it's between 1/6 and 1/7 but it actually seems closer to 1/7. still that IS high, even though our nation has the highest standards of living for those in poverty.
Originally posted by Darear:
46 million Americans on food stamps.
This is true.
Originally posted by Darear:
Nearly 50% or half the country’s population is on some sort of entitlement or welfare.
This is misleading. first of all it's 47% of american HOUSEHOLDS have at least one person who gets government "hand outs". this includes those who are on social security and medicare. and we pay into those programs so we ARE entitled to the money in them. it also includes veterans and the working poor. for some reason republicans don't seem to like the idea of paying taxes and getting a safety net in return. go figure. Seems like they're a bunch of spoiled rich white guys (like me!).
Originally posted by Darear:
The median income level of middle class families in America has depreciated by about $4,000.
True. just another sign that the economy is in the toilet.
Originally posted by Darear:
CBO estimates we’re headed for another recession next year.
yeah congress is once again being a dick about the budget. they will probably sort it out in a lame duck session and until then pass stop gap measures.
Originally posted by Darear:
The auto bail out’s final tally is still unaccounted for, not knowing how much money tax payers had to fund for the bail out.
well it's at 25 billion. use some imagination. Ether it will stop there or go up some more. do some research information exists. it's not like we know nothing.
Originally posted by Darear:
Non-union workers got a 70% decrease in their pensions, while union workers got a 100% increased in pensions at the Delphi region in Ohio.
first off that's market forces at work. 2nd off your comparing all non-union workers with union workers in ONE region. please give sources(<somewhat hypocritical request on my part) and make more reasonable comparisons. don't compare (what I assume to be) a national average with a small regional one.
Originally posted by Darear:
The stimulus money was dispersed and outsourced to other countries.
source?
Originally posted by Darear:
Green energy businesses like Solyndra were subsidized then went bankrupt.
start ups are MESSY. some of them fail. of the nearly three dozen recipients of loans under the deparment of energy's loan guarantee program only three are currently in bankruptcy although several others are facing financial difficulties
Originally posted by Darear:
Did not close Guantanamo bay.
That's a military base. the question we should be asking is weather or not human rights abuse there has changed. not weather or not it's open.
Originally posted by Darear:
Obama surged troops in Afghanistan.
Obama authorized drone strikes and got innocent people killed.
Obama authorized unlawful bombings and military actions without congressional approval which got innocent people killed.
The administration failed to stregthen the security of the U.S. embassies overseas before the 9/11 attack which ended in the death of Libyan Ambassador Christopher Stevens and four American lives in what is now known as “Benghazi-gate.”
got to fight a war somehow. He came into office with 2 wars. The president is commander in chief, he is in charge of military operations. what bombing are you talking about that was unlawful and got innocent people killed? What makes you think someone else can do better?
Originally posted by Darear:
Obama’s white house trumped up charges that bin Laden was armed to make Obama appear stronger. Not mentioning the intelligence work started under Bush via the CIA, FBI, the SEALs and the Dept. of Homeland Security.
Bush never did anything for those agencies. all credit belongs to the people in them who got work done inspite of the bush administration ignoring their pleas for action. Osama's Bin Laden's death is a great accomplishment. The report that he was armed when he died was quickly disputed. No charges where trumped up. There was a fire fight getting to Osama, probably someone was jumpy and shot him before seeing he was unarmed, and someone told a small lie and said he was armed.
Obama has done nothing about Syria.
not true. Hasn't done all that much though. What should he do? with a deficit and two wars?
“CBO real Truth Team, Unemployment rate 15 percent, Obama deficits, 1.2 trillion 2012, Obamacare costs rise and causes millions to lose employer insurance”
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/cbo-real-truth-team-unemployment-rate-15-percent-obama-deficits-1-2-trillion-2012-obamacare-costs-rise-and-causes-millions-to-lose-employer-insurance/

These are the facts.

Where the hell does this number come from? romney just claimed 11% and this is from a man who wants the economy to be bad because it increases his chances for election. I'm not going to believe a source that nether candidate feels is credible if you don't mind.
Obama never deserved to be president the first time, nor even a Senator.
really? because it seems like he was elected fair and square according to law. To both posts.
 
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Originally posted by Darear:

These are the facts. Obama never deserved to be president the first time, nor even a Senator.

Obama’s inexperience on the economy was clearly shown. Mitt Romney clearly beat him in the debate. I cannot fathom anyone even considering voting for Obama again.

P.S. Don’t comment to me unless it’s positive because I won’t be responding to some of you…

Many of them are no facts at all. As i already pointed out the last time you posted this shit. Since you updated the shit with new shit about the 9/11 attacks on embassies, you could have corrected your failures. That you did not shows quite clearly that facts and truth go against your nature.
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by Darear:

Obamacare is now Obamatax being levied on the middle class.

As i already explained several times in this thread. This is not true. A small but important part of Obamacare. The penalty for those who fail to follow suit can technically be considered a tax. The rest is not a tax. Since most people including people of the middle class will not be paying this penalty, you claim is untrue on extra level.

The $800 billion dollar stimulus failed to create jobs, just added to the debt.

Just plain pants on fire lie.
http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2011/oct/21/national-republican-senatorial-committee/national-republican-senatorial-committee-ad-says-s/

The auto bail out’s final tally is still unaccounted for, not knowing how much money tax payers had to fund for the bail out.

The auto bailout that started under Bush?

Non-union workers got a 70% decrease in their pensions, while union workers got a 100% increased in pensions at the Delphi region in Ohio.

Can you exactly say how this is Obama`s responsibility. Coming from a country with a lot more knowledge and thus respect for unions, i find any claim that the non-union workers would have gotten less than 70% decrease in pension if union workers had not gotten an increase suspect. Because thats generally not how it works. Companies generally take as much as they can from their workers. Here union workers are obviously in a better position because of their united bargaining power.

The stimulus money was dispersed and outsourced to other countries.
Green energy businesses like Solyndra were subsidized then went bankrupt.

Only a very very small portion of the stimulus money went to other countries. Something that in a Global economy is neither surprising nor stoppable without damaging your own economy.
To the Solyndra claim:

Fact-checkers at FactCheck.org have reported that the Energy Department has committed $34.7 billion in low-interest loans to nearly 40 green projects. Two companies that got such loans — one of them Solyndra — have filed for bankruptcy. FactCheck calculates that the government could lose as much as $578 million on those two deals. That’s less than 2 percent of the total program, so, as FactCheck says, it’s a stretch to claim the entire $34 billion has been ‘wasted.’ Uh, yes. A stretch, indeed.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/article/2012/may/04/tv-ad-claims-stimulus-ships-tax-dollars-overseas/

Did not close Guantanamo bay.

So? Most of those who want Guantanamo bay closed are quite satisfied with the Obamas work on this. While he was not able to close it completely, he reduced the number of inmates to 169(from 220 in January 2009), stopped the torture and the prison is no longer taking any new inmates.
The ones laying the blame for not closing gitmo on Obama are non surprisingly mostly conservatives who don´t care about what Obama has done to close gitmo and what congress has done to stop him. The ones that just want a talking point to show how Obama has failed to keep his promises even though his track record on his promises is quite good.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

 
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Facts and truths coming from an Obama supporter? I’m getting really tired of arguing here. Darkruler, I listed why Obama has failed. You never asked for Romney’s record. I will leave with this. Romney’s record at Massachusetts Governor, lowered unemployment from 5.6% to 4.7%, had the best education in the nation under his tenure, got to a balanced budget without taxing the middle class, and left a surplus. Massachusetts was actually rated 50th in job creation when Romney first got elected and 28th when he left. Pretty big improvement. 47th is the average of those years, we gave Obama a pass the first year so we have to give Romney a pass the first year as well.

I’ll stop arguing on this boring topic now. By the way, large post doesn’t mean right.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Darear:

Facts and truths coming from an Obama supporter? I’m getting really tired of arguing here. Darkruler, I listed why Obama has failed. You never asked for Romney’s record. I will leave with this. Romney’s record at Massachusetts Governor, lowered unemployment from 5.6% to 4.7%, had the best education in the nation under his tenure, got to a balanced budget without taxing the middle class, and left a surplus. Massachusetts was actually rated 50th in job creation when Romney first got elected and 28th when he left. Pretty big improvement. 47th is the average of those years, we gave Obama a pass the first year so we have to give Romney a pass the first year as well.

I’ll stop arguing on this boring topic now. By the way, large post doesn’t mean right.

I get the feeling you just said Obama supporters never tell the truth or use facts and my post and JohnnyBeGood’s post are not only tl;dr but, in fact false because they are long. You didn’t actually say any of that, but that’s my take away impression from reading this post.