U.S. Presidential Election page 7 (locked)

A smaller government and less spending does not create economic growth. Any country that has done so has had the economy suffer because of it. A prime example of this can currently be seen in Greece.

No, just no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis

There’s a summary as to why Greece is in the shitshow they are in. Not because of cuts, but because of benefits that can’t be paid because there isn’t enough money to do so.

Originally posted by issendorf:

A smaller government and less spending does not create economic growth. Any country that has done so has had the economy suffer because of it. A prime example of this can currently be seen in Greece.

No, just no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis

There’s a summary as to why Greece is in the shitshow they are in. Not because of cuts, but because of benefits that can’t be paid because there isn’t enough money to do so.

Yes. Just yes. It seem you somehow mistakenly think i said that the debt crises or the general shit Greece is facing is because of make Government smaller and spending less. Thats not what i said. Your burning a Straw man here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis#Economic_and_social_effects_of_austerity_measures

Here from your source, the points i was talking about. Thanks for doing the job of giving me a source to back my claims.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

Justice Roberts declared the mandate a tax. period.

No he did not. This directly from the court ruling:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part III–B that the individual mandate must be construed as imposing a tax on those who do not have health insurance, if such a construction is reasonable.
The most straightforward reading of the individual mandate is thatit commands individuals to purchase insurance. But, for the reasons explained, the Commerce Clause does not give Congress that power.It is therefore necessary to turn to the Government’s alternative argument: that the mandate may be upheld as within Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes.” Art. I, §8, cl. 1. In pressing its taxingpower argument, the Government asks the Court to view the mandate as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47995898/
http://www.theroot.com/sites/default/files/supreme_court_ruling_on_obamacare_062812.pdf

The penalty part can be technically viewed as a tax on those who do not buy that product. So calling it a tax is okay. Whatever. But the claim that the mandate (which is a bit more than the penalty and thus more than just a tax) as a tax is the greatest in American history or just fucking big, relies on the idea that the cost of buying health insurance is itself a tax. Which is just bullshit. Only the penalty part can technically be called a tax the other part would technically even need to be called a tax-cut, because people who buy health insurance do not need to pay the penalty(tax).

The rest of your post is just lot of talk. But nothing to back it up. Quite frankly i am not gonna trust anything (that i would need to take your word on) you say here thats not backed by a source. Because almost everything i don´t need to take your word on and anything that i checked was wrong, very often the exact opposite of your claims being true(see the stimulus bill and your claims on it above as example).
And i am not just stooping to name calling you. Your posts in this very thread are very much proof that the behavior i ascribe to you is very much true.

Originally posted by jhco50:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part III–B that the individual mandate must be construed as imposing a tax on those who do not have health insurance, if such a construction is reasonable.
The most straightforward reading of the individual mandate is thatit commands individuals to purchase insurance. But, for the reasons explained, the Commerce Clause does not give Congress that power.It is therefore necessary to turn to the Government’s alternative argument: that the mandate may be upheld as within Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes.” Art. I, §8, cl. 1. In pressing its taxingpower argument, the Government asks the Court to view the mandate as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product.

The penalty part can be technically viewed as a tax on those who do not buy that product. So calling it a tax is okay. Whatever. But the claim that the mandate (which is a bit more than the penalty and thus more than just a tax) as a tax is the greatest in American history or just fucking big, relies on the idea that the cost of buying health insurance is itself a tax. Which is just bullshit. Only the penalty part can technically be called a tax the other part would technically even need to be called a tax-cut, because people who buy health insurance do not need to pay the penalty(tax).

The rest of your post is just lot of talk. But nothing to back it up. Quite frankly i am not gonna trust anything (that i would need to take your word on) you say here thats not backed by a source. Because almost everything i don´t need to take your word on and anything that i checked was wrong, very often the exact opposite of your claims being true(see the stimulus bill and your claims on it above as example).
And i am not just stooping to name calling you. Your posts in this very thread are very much proof that the behavior i ascribe to you is very much true.

I believe that is what I said, it was determined to be a tax. Mandate is illegal, tax is legal. I think it was pretty clear.

You know, I really don’t care if you believe a damn thing I say, because you don’t have a vote and probably don’t give a crap about my country anyway. If you want to believe the sky is green you go ahead, but here it is blue.

This what you said:

Yes, taxes have been raised that much Johnny. The healthcare mandate has been judged a tax by the SCOTUS. It is now a tax and the highest onetime tax in history.

Which is a lie. Neither has the mandate as such been judged a tax by the SCoTUS nor is it the highest onetime tax in history. As i have explained in detail above. The mandate is more than just the penalty and even the penalty itself is not that high of a tax. You need to include all health insurance payments in that figure for it to work, which is clearly bullshit.

All I hear from you people is how great Obamacare is. Yet the American people don’t like it and want it repealed. You just can’t accept the fact we aren’t Germany, or New Zealand, or England…and we don’t want to be. Get over it.

Can you quote where in this thread or even forum I or “you people” have said how great Obama is? You are getting fucking delusional to the extreme. The closet you can get to that is someone (who is not me) linking to a site which presents stuff Obama actually did in an admittedly pro-obama light. A link that was posted in response to you making one of your bullshit claims about Obama.
Fact is all i am doing here is fact checking your claims. If that makes Obama look good, then thats more your responsibility than mine.

It’s called willful ignorance, and no matter how much you try to explain, calmly and rationally, it won’t matter.
You can’t show people facts that they are dead set on not seeing.

Give it up Johnny.
He can’t face anything like a fact that disagrees with him.

Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part III–B that the individual mandate must be construed as imposing a tax

…on those who do not have health insurance…

I’m a natural American citizen and owner/operator of a sole proprietorship.
I am married, and have a small child.
Tell me again how it’s none of my business.

Furthermore, tell me why you keep derailing this topic and dragging it back to the health care debate.
Which is over.
Because SCOTUS has ruled on it. Remember that? When the branch of Federal government charged with interpreting Constitutional Law ruled on it, and said it was Constitutional?
A bench currently considered to lean Right in their rulings?

Deal with it.

Or make more vague allusions to revolution and civil war, I guess…because that always works out well.

Don’t get me wrong, the GOP is most definitely using the false flag of “socialism” and “government takeovers” to keep everyone from paying attention to the facts regarding their party and platform, but there are already threads regarding the Affordable Care Act.
For example, this one

If you want to discuss the actual election, then let’s rock.
But if you just want to cry more, because you’re long anticipated SCOTUS strike-down of the ACA didn’t happen, take it to the appropriate thread, hmm?

I wasn’t the one who derailed it. I never wanted to discuss it in the first place. So tell me, are you doing better now than you did four years ago? Or are you just holding on hoping for a break in this economic mess?

Originally posted by jhco50:

I wasn’t the one who derailed it. I never wanted to discuss it in the first place.

Pics?

So tell me, are you doing better now than you did four years ago?

Wait, that’s solely dependent on who’s in office now?

Holy shit, we do need to linch some people.

Or are you just holding on hoping for a break in this economic mess?

I might be mistaken here, but wasn’t the economy kinda crappy even before Obama came into office?

I’m doing fairly well.

I might be mistaken here, but wasn’t the economy kinda crappy even before Obama came into office?

Yup.

I think our recession started in 2007. I remember a lot of outcry about how Bush Jr. was screwing things up with the war as far back as 2003, but I haven’t really studied it so I don’t know if that is it’s origins.

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

I think our recession started in 2007. I remember a lot of outcry about how Bush Jr. was screwing things up with the war as far back as 2003, but I haven’t really studied it so I don’t know if that is it’s origins.

The Bush administration’s various screw-ups were responsible for a lot of it, although they inherited some bad policies themselves. However, the shit really hit the fan before Obama took office, yes. Ironically, it’s the Obama administration – the one that is continually getting attacked – which turned it around. Although the economy still tanks, it is recovering, and not spiraling down into a pit of despair. Most of the policies are long-term ones aimed at getting us out of this mess.

Vika, I agree Bush’s last four years were really bad and yes he didn’t do good by the economy toward the last. Many things he did because of the war literally ticked me off. However, our economy has not turned around and economists are predicting another recession next year. Shoot, I didn’t know we were out of the first one, nor did all of the other unemployed.

You know, I wonder what Biden has done in his position? You never hear of him. Did he just coast through all of this?

Originally posted by jhco50:

Shoot, I didn’t know we were out of the first one, nor did all of the other unemployed.

That would be called a double-dip recession.

Originally posted by vikaTae:

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

I think our recession started in 2007. I remember a lot of outcry about how Bush Jr. was screwing things up with the war as far back as 2003, but I haven’t really studied it so I don’t know if that is it’s origins.

The Bush administration’s various screw-ups were responsible for a lot of it, although they inherited some bad policies themselves. However, the shit really hit the fan before Obama took office, yes. Ironically, it’s the Obama administration – the one that is continually getting attacked – which turned it around. Although the economy still tanks, it is recovering, and not spiraling down into a pit of despair. Most of the policies are long-term ones aimed at getting us out of this mess.

Give me an example of an Obama policy that aided in the economic “recovery”. I put recovery in quotations because I don’t think massive unemployment, US credit downgrading, spiraling debt, a lack of balanced budget, and inflation increases is a “recovery”. Call me cynical. Obama’s recovery seems more akin to giving a gun violence victim a blood transfusion…. from himself… and then giving him a massive bill… and AIDS. Then, when he is still breathing, miraculously, calling it a “recovery”. That’s actually a skit from Monty Python, I believe. It’s not funny when our President makes idiotic economic decisions and then people think he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread, but what do you expect when people get their news from Comedy Central. It’s sad really.

Originally posted by MyTie:

Give me an example of an Obama policy that aided in the economic “recovery”.

Wait, didn’t someone already do that?

I put recovery in quotations because I don’t think massive unemployment, US credit downgrading, spiraling debt, a lack of balanced budget, and inflation increases is a “recovery”.

Yeah, I kinda get why people use quotations.

It’s not funny when our President makes idiotic economic decisions and then people think he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread,

Source?

but what do you expect when people get their news from Comedy Central. It’s sad really.

Well where you rather people get news, from a station that actually thinks it’s making journalistic news?

It’s sad, all right.

Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

Originally posted by issendorf:

A smaller government and less spending does not create economic growth. Any country that has done so has had the economy suffer because of it. A prime example of this can currently be seen in Greece.

No, just no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis

There’s a summary as to why Greece is in the shitshow they are in. Not because of cuts, but because of benefits that can’t be paid because there isn’t enough money to do so.

Yes. Just yes. It seem you somehow mistakenly think i said that the debt crises or the general shit Greece is facing is because of make Government smaller and spending less. Thats not what i said. Your burning a Straw man here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis#Economic_and_social_effects_of_austerity_measures

Here from your source, the points i was talking about. Thanks for doing the job of giving me a source to back my claims.

Because no doubt continuing to spend themselves into oblivion would have made everything rosy. Greece was, for lack of a better term, fucked either way. If I was a German citizen, I would want to make damn sure Merkel imposed strict fiscal guidelines on a country that was threatening to plague the entire Eurozone.

I just listened to Paul Ryan’s speech a few minutes ago. I think he was reading my mind. I was really impressed and rather than tell people how they will have to tighten their belts or will just have to get used to the situation, he was inspiring. He made people feel like there is hope for the future. I hope you guys weren’t so biased you couldn’t listen to him.

Originally posted by tenco1:Well where you rather people get news, from a station that actually thinks it’s making journalistic news?

That’s right.