Animal Rights page 10

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Elephants are capable of counting for one as well as basic arithmetic that is a form of Math should they be protected?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14569 I know it’s not that much and there are probably better answers but still…
And isn’t the singing of births where they come up with their own songs as a form of poetry.
By the way wikipedia has a whole list of ways of measuring intelligence of animals with examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition

Oh and does something like say dyscalculia reduce your level of being an intelligent individual (and should it therefor reduce your rights)?

 
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Originally posted by fma1:

When an animal in the wild kills another animal, there is always a clear reason why. It is either defending itself, defending its kin, or hunting for food. There are no other reasons to kill besides those.

That’s not true.

 
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Originally posted by fma1:

I will try to put it simply.

Killing animals for food is fine. That is part of nature. Humans are predators, we kill other animals so that we can eat them. It is part of the cycle of nature.
However, treating an animal inhumanely, forcing it into painfull conditions, or killing it for no reason just because you want to are all unethical practices. In the wild, animals don’t kill each other for no reason. When an animal in the wild kills another animal, there is always a clear reason why. It is either defending itself, defending its kin, or hunting for food. There are no other reasons to kill besides those.

You’ve never seen a cat play with a mouse before? Or kill a bird for no reason, only to leave its carcass at its owner’s feet? Haha.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:
Originally posted by fma1:

I will try to put it simply.

Killing animals for food is fine. That is part of nature. Humans are predators, we kill other animals so that we can eat them. It is part of the cycle of nature.
However, treating an animal inhumanely, forcing it into painfull conditions, or killing it for no reason just because you want to are all unethical practices. In the wild, animals don’t kill each other for no reason. When an animal in the wild kills another animal, there is always a clear reason why. It is either defending itself, defending its kin, or hunting for food. There are no other reasons to kill besides those.

You’ve never seen a cat play with a mouse before? Or kill a bird for no reason, only to leave its carcass at its owner’s feet? Haha.

I said “in the wild”. This does not apply to domesticated animals. In the wild, your house cat’s feline relatives would eat that bird.

 
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Originally posted by fma1:

I said “in the wild”. This does not apply to domesticated animals. In the wild, your house cat’s feline relatives would eat that bird.

So according to you, animals somehow learn how to kill for other reasons when they become domesticated?

 
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An example of an animal killing just for fun:
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/bizarre/news-bottle-nosed-dolphins-only-animal-kills-fun

 
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Originally posted by fma1:


However, treating an animal inhumanely, forcing it into painfull conditions, or killing it for no reason just because you want to are all unethical practices. In the wild, animals don’t kill each other for no reason. When an animal in the wild kills another animal, there is always a clear reason why. It is either defending itself, defending its kin, or hunting for food. There are no other reasons to kill besides those.

^This. A logically sound and succinct way of describing the situation.

Originally posted by NaturalReject:

That’s not true.

Well, arguably animals might fight over territory, mates, or something like that but I can’t think of a reason where they hurt each other for shits and giggles (like some more malignant people are known to do).

Originally posted by rwbstripes:

You’ve never seen a cat play with a mouse before? Or kill a bird for no reason, only to leave its carcass at its owner’s feet? Haha.

Good point. But even still, the cat is a domestic cat and it could be argued that there is a survivalistic reason the cat is performing those actions:

(a) Play is basically practice/drilling for a hunting and food gathering scenario
(b) Cats view people as the “head cats” in their “pride”, and as such often catch and distribute prey as a gift or offering to them. Pride members taking care of each other offers a distinct survival advantage (just watch any lion nature show).

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Well, arguably animals might fight over territory, mates, or something like that but I can’t think of a reason where they hurt each other for shits and giggles (like some more malignant people are known to do).

How would you know an animals intent in non-obvious cases?

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:

How would you know an animals intent in non-obvious cases?

How would you know their lack of intent?

But otherwise, it seems fairly obvious by watching them. Nature documentaries illuminate some behaviors as well.

 
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but I can’t think of a reason where they hurt each other for shits and giggles (like some more malignant people are known to do).

Actually there is a very close association between animal intelligence and violent, generally, cruel behavior. Dolphins were cited above to no acknowledgement. Greater apes. Cats.

(a) Play is basically practice/drilling for a hunting and food gathering scenario

That is a catch all however. This creates a wash for all meat eating creatures. You suggest that because their violent behavior hones survival behavior there is a justifiable reason. If the animal is domesticated, and there is no longer a need to catch their food, it is just a misappropriation of their survival instincts.

But, how does this argument not apply to humans then? If I say, take up killing to practice my killing skills in the case I might need to kill prey to eat or kill to defend myself/my family is that kosher?

Anywho. My cat enjoys killing things, it enjoys pretending to kill things too. Do I think, and agree, that this is because it is conditioned to enjoy that behavior; because it hones and prepares it for when it is important to kill? Yes I do. I just don’t see how that is a different scenario from anything else.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:
If the animal is domesticated, and there is no longer a need to catch their food, it is just a misappropriation of their survival instincts.

It may be a misappropriation, but it’s still built in. As recently as their last relative in the bloodline (mother/father, whatever) that cat may have been feral. Even domestic cats aren’t terribly removed from their wildness.

Anywho. My cat enjoys killing things, it enjoys pretending to kill things too.

My cat does too. We play this game called “Arm” where I pull my sweater over my fist, and tickle her while she attacks it. I usually end up scratched to hell, but we have lots of fun.

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

How would you know their lack of intent?

But otherwise, it seems fairly obvious by watching them. Nature documentaries illuminate some behaviors as well.

I’m not talking about animals having or not having intent, I’m talking about distinguishing between the different forms of intent.

You’re saying you can’t see an animal killing for shits and giggles, but how would you distinguish shits and giggles from deliberately practicing hunting skills? Just because the animal does gain hunting skills from the kill, it doesn’t mean that it had the intent to gain them. Taking pleasure in killing would actually be a positive trait for a predator for that very reason. If you like killing, you will kill more than another predator who kills only for food and you would gain hunting skills.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by fma1:

I said “in the wild”. This does not apply to domesticated animals. In the wild, your house cat’s feline relatives would eat that bird.

So according to you, animals somehow learn how to kill for other reasons when they become domesticated?

No, it’s just a different environment. Your cat still has its base animal instincts to attack that bird when it enters its territory. However, since food is provided to it by you, it doesn’t need to eat the bird. It just takes the bird back to its equivalent of a pack leader, which is you.

 
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Originally posted by fma1:

No, it’s just a different environment. Your cat still has its base animal instincts to attack that bird when it enters its territory. However, since food is provided to it by you, it doesn’t need to eat the bird. It just takes the bird back to its equivalent of a pack leader, which is you.

And why wouldn’t that exact same thing apply to a wild animal?

 
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Funny how people keep overlooking the dolphins reference.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by fma1:

No, it’s just a different environment. Your cat still has its base animal instincts to attack that bird when it enters its territory. However, since food is provided to it by you, it doesn’t need to eat the bird. It just takes the bird back to its equivalent of a pack leader, which is you.

And why wouldn’t that exact same thing apply to a wild animal?

I did miss one reason why animals kill other animals in the wild. I forgot to mention territory. Animals will attack other animals that enter thier territory. Still, my main point is that in the wild, animals don’t kill each other just for the sake of killing. You can always know why an animal attacked.

 
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Originally posted by fma1:

I did miss one reason why animals kill other animals in the wild. I forgot to mention territory. Animals will attack other animals that enter thier territory. Still, my main point is that in the wild, animals don’t kill each other just for the sake of killing. You can always know why an animal attacked.

Prove it.

Edit: You forgot to answer my question.

 
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Still the dolphins… Anyway humans are also just practicing (by playing) their old instincts (and satisfying their curiosity even if that means what happens if I blow up this frog?).

 
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its only natural that we eat each other.

“food chain”

although its not necesary

and with time we can evolve if we choose not to eat creatures(will be unhealthy at first though)
we should rather try and engineer our own food (NASA type stuff)