America, Israel and Iran

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What obligations does the United States have to Israel? And if there are obligations, how far should the United States go to meet those obligations?

Finally, if the United States attacked Iran to stop it from gaining a nuclear weapon, is it for the benefit solely of Israel or for all of the world?

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

{question one:}What obligations does the United States have to Israel?
{question two:} And if there are obligations, how far should the United States go to meet those obligations?

{question 3:}Finally, if the United States attacked Iran to stop it from gaining a nuclear weapon, is it for the benefit solely of Israel or for all of the world?

I well imagine that the answers to these questions will vary, and to differing degrees, from one individual to another.

question one: Partly because they support us “right back”. In large, because we “use” them as a huge air base to “watch over” our oil interests.

question two: This is gonna depend upon just what “obligation” are seen as and how important they are deemed to be.

question three: There is a two-stage answer…BOTH,,,,just to differing degrees.

 
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What obligations does the United States have to Israel? And if there are obligations, how far should the United States go to meet those obligations?

You could start with these and these too. Big list, isn’t it. Short of severing diplomatic relations entirely, it’s not possible for America to unload all these obligations.

Finally, if the United States attacked Iran to stop it from gaining a nuclear weapon, is it for the benefit solely of Israel or for all of the world?

I certainly wouldn’t consider that it was for my benefit. Another war in the Middle East? That’s all I’m short of! And America coudn’t afford it right now anyway. We could kiss any economic recovery goodbye if they try.

I’ve been saying this until I’m blue in the face, but you cannot solve a problem like the one America has with Iran by posturing and making a load of idle threats. Talk to them, for Christ’s sake. Make the effort to find a bit of common ground, something in the way of shared interests. And then build on it. It can start with something as simple as a few cultural exchanges just to break the ice. It’s the kind of we were doing with the Soviet block even before the cold war began to thaw. BTW Flabby, I do realise you are not from America.

 
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And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.

There are other nuclear powers in the middle east. Let them duke it out between themselves if it comes to that. The Russian pipelines will still flow.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.

Just for a moment there I thought you were advocating yet another war in the Middle East just so that you would be able to fill your car up cheaply.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

Just for a moment there I thought you were advocating yet another war in the Middle East just so that you would be able to fill your car up cheaply.

He was, yup.

That doing so will stretch US resources beyond the breaking point, and force us to sink several hundred billion more into a third front in the middle east, guaranteeing this depression has no chance of recovery is unimportant. The illusion of cheap gas is what matters.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by MyTie:

And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.

There are other nuclear powers in the middle east. Let them duke it out between themselves if it comes to that. The Russian pipelines will still flow.

Russian pipelines? Lol. Yes, let’s put our economy and national security in the hands of Russia.

Originally posted by beauval:
Originally posted by MyTie:

And our economic recovery would do well if the price of gas skyrocketed because a nuclear Iran held the middle east hostage? Sounds legit.


Just for a moment there I thought you were advocating yet another war in the Middle East just so that you would be able to fill your car up cheaply.


Strawmen abound.

No. What I’m advocating is a precise strike against the government of Iran, and not a projected war.

Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by beauval:

Just for a moment there I thought you were advocating yet another war in the Middle East just so that you would be able to fill your car up cheaply.

He was, yup.

That doing so will stretch US resources beyond the breaking point, and force us to sink several hundred billion more into a third front in the middle east, guaranteeing this depression has no chance of recovery is unimportant. The illusion of cheap gas is what matters.

I should have known you would buy the strawmen. How about I do that to you? Yes. You are advocating giving the US to Russia, and making us a sub Russian state, by becoming dependent on their oil. You must be doing this because you are a Communist and hate America. Straw men can go both ways.

 
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Israel is the closest thing America has to a foothold in the Middle East.
It’s not a perfect system, but these nations are engaged in archaic tribal warfare with modern weapons. There is a genuine fear that if left unchecked, they would wipe each other off the face of the planet.

 
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Originally posted by Azolf:

Israel is the closest thing America has to a foothold in the Middle East.
It’s not a perfect system, but These nations are engaged in archaic tribal warfare with modern weapons. There is a genuine fear that if left unchecked, they would wipe each other off the face of the planet.

Agreed. You have to remember that many people in this forum don’t see the USA as a positive force in the world, and would advocate a meltdown of middle east relations. As vika shows us, some people just want to let them “duke it out”, like the government of Syria is duking it out with the children they have axe murdered. It’s like a video game to some people.

For instance, yesterday, Sept 11th, the 11th anniversary of the twin tower attacks, our embassy in lybia was overrun and our ambassador was murdered by Islamic militants. My co workers, instead of watching the news about it, or discussing it, are watching the golf channel. This is what the world is coming to. It’s too far removed from people to be a reality. We should just let them do as they will and not worry about it. People have to feel the pain themselves before they worry about it.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Russian pipelines? Lol. Yes, let’s put our economy and national security in the hands of Russia.

Economy and national security in Russian hands? Whatthe heck are you talking about? Could you please stop talking out of your ass for a second and think?

Russia has oil, Russia sells oil. The UK has oil. The UK sells oil. I think China sells oil, and I know there are antarctic drills. Just because you buy from someone does not mean they now own you.

Ever shopped at Walmart? Does that mean Walmart now owns you? Of course not.

Jeesh!

Strawmen abound.

Technically it doesn’t count as a strawman, when it is what you actually said, just rephrased.

No. What I’m advocating is a precise strike against the government of Iran, and not a projected war.

the same no doubt, as the strike against Iraq was just a precise surgical strike, and didn’t lead to protracted war that we sank hundreds of billions of dollars into. Uh huh. Just the same as that. Iran’s people won’t seek a protracted fight against us if we use surgical (nukes presumably) strikes against their government, any more than we would rise up in retaliation if someone nuked Washington DC. Of course we wouldn’t, right?

Once the head’s gone, the body dies. That kind of logic?

I should have known you would buy the strawmen. How about I do that to you?

Mostly because you are full of shit, and have trouble understanding any concept not fed directly into your head by God Almighty, the $ Himself?

You keep continually ‘misunderstanding’ and ‘misinterpreting’ every argument made against any point of view you hold, and spewing hyperbole like diahorrea everywhere you turn.

Yes. You are advocating giving the US to Russia

hyperbole. It is the same logical argument as everyone who shopped at Walmart is now owned by Walmart.

and making us a sub Russian state

Hyperbole. Ever been to Canada? Ever bought something from a convenience store there? Congratulations, you have just given up your American citizenship and have been annexed as a ward of Canada, or so you would have us believe.

by becoming dependent on their oil

Hyperbole. Newsflash: We are already dependent on crude oil. Which country we buy it from doesn’t matter. It’s all the same thing. Or do you presume (knowing you, quite likely) that oil from different countries has different properties based on the predominant skin color of the local populace?

You must be doing this because you are a Communist and hate America.

Here we go. Typical far right lunatic fringe arguments. “You disagree with me, that makes you a communist. You are unamerican! Get out! Leave this country at once you sicko, before I sic my pet God on you!”

You cannot accept that other people have different views to you, and these views gasp, shock, horror might actually be valid. seen it before in your other threads.

Straw men can go both ways.

They might do if you actually made any, and not your usual batshit insane arguments.

 
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Since Oil came up, I figured I’d share a few things from the EIA’s website.

First, less than ten percent of our oil comes from the Persian Gulf. The majority is domestic, and what isn’t domestic primarily comes from the Americas (around 52% of imports, making it around 23% of oil consumed in the US).

So basically, we wouldn’t become that “dependent” on Russian oil. They don’t have a large enough market share.

 
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Some parts of the western world think we owe Israel because of what happened to the Jews in WW2 (whatever this is true is up to you).
There is also the strategic importance of having an ally in a politically unstable area as it allows you to launch operations from there.
However Israel is also a large source of unrest in the area. So by being allied with Israel the US is also making itself a target. And could be increasing unrest in the area.
Making sure the area is peaceful is about more then just oil. It’s also about keeping a large steam of potential immigrants stay put.

 
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The United States has NO obligations to Israel. AIPAC, one of the most powerful PACs in America, simply controls American foreign policy and the state department. Both parties have really failed here because they pander to Israel and try to out do each other. Israel is just a propped up democracy to monitor changes in the Middle East.

It would be wrong and foolish for Israel OR America to attack Iran because the experts say it would lead to a regional war and more sectarian violence. Why is it okay for America and Israel to arbitrarily dictate which governments certain countries may have and if the country should be able to produce nuclear weapons? Israel has 200 to 300 nukes, why are we not angered by that? There is no concrete evidence that Iran is building a nuclear weapon. The Zionist media is trying to trump up charges as it wants to go to war there anyway.

If the United States does attack Iran which is pretty unlikely, Israel will probably attack first, it is solely for the benefit of Israel. Pakistan has nukes yet we don’t bother. Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism and is still a monarchy, yet we don’t bother because we get oil.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:They might do if you actually made any, and not your usual batshit insane arguments.

The strawman was that you are making arguments for communism. I just presented it as a mockery of your claim that I want war with Iran since I don’t want to let them get nukes. It’s a strawman, but I was doing it in jest. You took it seriously. I can tell I’m going to have to spell this out for you:

Do not tell me what my beliefs are, or say that you are “rephrasing” my beliefs, when you are just making stuff up.

The funnies part about your post was that you said my post was all hyperbole, and then went on to call me “bat shit insane”. Do you aim to be so hypocritical that it’s comical?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

The funnies part about your post was that you said my post was all hyperbole,

Hyperbole.

and then went on to call me “bat shit insane”.

Except she didn’t.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Do not tell me what my beliefs are, or say that you are “rephrasing” my beliefs, when you are just making stuff up.

Actually it’s just taking from what you’ve said, or drawing the logical parallel to what you’ve said. None of it was made up – unless your original posts were just ‘making stuff up’.

The funnies part about your post was that you said my post was all hyperbole, and then went on to call me “bat shit insane”. Do you aim to be so hypocritical that it’s comical?

As Tenco pointed out, I did not call you anything of the sort. Please learn to read posts before replying. Actually it would help most of your arguments in general if you did that.

 
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Hyperbull.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:Actually it would help most of your arguments in general if you did that.

Everything you are saying is wrong. I’m not saying YOU are wrong, just everything you do and say. This, of course, is not hyperbole, since it has nothing to do with you. Am I saying this correctly?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Everything you are saying is wrong. I’m not saying YOU are wrong, just everything you do and say. This, of course, is not hyperbole, since it has nothing to do with you. Am I saying this correctly?

No, it’s still most definitely hyperbole. My question is, though: why are you being so defensive and over-reacting?

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by MyTie:

Everything you are saying is wrong. I’m not saying YOU are wrong, just everything you do and say. This, of course, is not hyperbole, since it has nothing to do with you. Am I saying this correctly?

No, it’s still most definitely hyperbole. My question is, though: why are you being so defensive and over-reacting?

I said that a nuclear Iran holding the middle east hostage would hurt our economic recovery due to higher gas prices. vikaTae and beauval “reworded” this to mean that I advocate a projected war with Iran. I’m just pointing out that is a straw man argument, and showed vikaTae how wrong it would be if I said that because she points out oil would still come out of Russia, that she advocates the US turning to communism. I used that as an example of a straw man. She took that to be a serious point from me, and called my point “bat shit insane”. Through a series of mis-communications and straw men, this has been turned from a logical argument to a convoluted mess. It’s not that I’m seriously bothered by it. It’s just a matter of principle. I don’t advocate a long Iraq style war with Iran just because I believe a nuclear Iran would increase the price of gas. I think that is a huge and inaccurate “rewording” of my point. I believe it is a straw man. I also beleive that calling my example of a straw man “bat shit insane” is hyperbole. I gave an example of what hyperbole would look like coming from me, and you accurately pointed out that it was hyperbole. It’s amazing that a poor argument, when pointed out, is denied, but if the same is done back, it is recognized as a poor argument.

Examine the only point I’ve made:

A nuclear Iran has a great potential to hurt the price of gas, and therefore the US economic recovery.

Now, argue against that point, not against a reinterpretation, rewording, and remaking of my point into another point. I don’t feel like defending points that others ascribe to my position. When I simply say “this is not my point”, I get a childish “yes it is” back. WTF kind of argument is that?

 
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Israel needs to mind it’s own business and stop abusing the rights of Palestinians.

 
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Darear
Yes, we know you think that Zionists are controlling the world – you said this already.
How many other idiots are roaming this poor globe out there…
(Rhetorical question…)

MyTie
I totally agree with your point above – people don’t care a shit, until that very shit happens to THEM.

TO ALL
No, I will NOT participate in further discussions – I finally learned my lesson of not wasting MY time.

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:No, I will NOT participate in further discussions – I finally learned my lesson of not wasting MY time.

Then why are you still here?