America, Israel and Iran page 3

127 posts

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And I’m not suggesting allying the Palestine’s either. But Israel knows that if the US lash out against them they are in trouble so the US can easily tell them to stop their current blockade and stop further expansion or else they will find themselves at the end of a boycott (which would destroy their economy) (trough perhaps this shouldn’t be said first but handled diplomatically). This would probably be seen by the rest of the Middle East as the US actually caring for the people living in the area and could be a step towards stability. An ally who doesn’t do what you want isn’t worth a lot is it?
The religious despots also have an easy time in fact they were elected because Israel posed such a treat to the Palestinians that they chose their current leaders. The problem is that this area of the world is a deeply gray and gray matter. Israel is bad against the Islamic population and other nations are either chaotic or against the non Islamic population (trough times are changing with the Arab spring).

 
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What will happen without that blockade? Israel has offered Palestinian statehood, what is it, three times? Each time it has been Palestine that has refused. Israel has agreed to recognize Palestine. Palestine has refused to recognize Israel. Regardless of how it got there, Palestine will never agree to any statehood that also recognizes Israel. Palestine doesn’t want Israel to exist, probably due to the terrorist leaders it has. Without that blockade, weapons would stream into Israel and there would be war. That is a self defensive measure. Harsh? Yes. Horrible? Probably. Necessary? At the moment, yes. Peace will end it, which Palestine, NOT ISRAEL, refuses.

 
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Currently people are dying because they don’t have the parts to fix their water system. They don’t have everything they need to get food. They are slowly starving and dying of disease. Is that fair? And do you really think that as long as people are suffering Hamas is going to loose votes? How would you react if the middle east and Russia closed their oil to the west until the US government resigned (forgetting for a moment that most the US oil is produced in America)? You can’t change a government by being mean to it’s population especially when that governments entire campaign is build around the fact that “we have those guys”. And would you honestly want a country that prevented you from getting the supplies you need to live to exist? Basically Israel is creating a huge group of future terrorists by forcing these people to live in poor conditions.

 
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If any country (or union) of the USA/EU caliber REALLY wanted to END that conflict – they’d do it long ago.
(By simply forcing a political regiment in Palestine, that would NOT openly profess “ISRAEL DIE” – which in turn would remove the entire conflict in a few years, if this would go on steadily. Israel never wanted any WAR, nor it ever called one a “necessity” of the “kill the infidels” caliber, like the one that the Pals are teaching their children into.)
As of now, from the ACTIVE POLITICAL HELPER standpoint – it’s a big question, whether USA is Israel’s ALLY or just a less aggressive BYSTANDER
And only idiots would miss the MAIN point (which MyTie mentioned):
It isn’t Israel and Jews, who want to literally eliminate the Western culture – and to do it ACTIVELY-AGGRESSIVELY.
If you think otherwise – you ARE an idiot…
(Or a MUSLIM…)

 
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If they force an regiment into Palestine this would cause so much unrest that the border would just collapse and a civil war would probably spread over the entire area creating Chaos in both Palestine and Israel. An I’m an atheist if that’s the problem and I like to look at a solution the both sides find somewhat acceptable. You will need to start by getting the population of both areas willing to make a deal. Currently both sides hates each other the US can force Israel into being just nice enough to the Palestinians that they are willing to make a deal as well and then we can get a deal.

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

If any country (or union) of the USA/EU caliber REALLY wanted to END that conflict – they’d do it long ago.
(By simply forcing a political regiment in Palestine, that would NOT openly profess “ISRAEL DIE” – which in turn would remove the entire conflict in a few years, if this would go on steadily. Israel never wanted any WAR, nor it ever called one a “necessity” of the “kill the infidels” caliber, like the one that the Pals are teaching their children into.)
As of now, from the ACTIVE POLITICAL HELPER standpoint – it’s a big question, whether USA is Israel’s ALLY or just a less aggressive BYSTANDER
And only idiots would miss the MAIN point (which MyTie mentioned):
It isn’t Israel and Jews, who want to literally eliminate the Western culture – and to do it ACTIVELY-AGGRESSIVELY.
If you think otherwise – you ARE an idiot…
(Or a MUSLIM…)

1. Forcing a rejime would result in MORE rebellion from the palestines
2. Bulls*** if they didn’t want war why didn’t they cut a deal with the palestines
3. ok the last part was either
A. an insult to people who think differently from you or
B. An insult to the muslim community

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

Currently people are dying because they don’t have the parts to fix their water system. They don’t have everything they need to get food. They are slowly starving and dying of disease. Is that fair? And do you really think that as long as people are suffering Hamas is going to loose votes? How would you react if the middle east and Russia closed their oil to the west until the US government resigned (forgetting for a moment that most the US oil is produced in America)? You can’t change a government by being mean to it’s population especially when that governments entire campaign is build around the fact that “we have those guys”. And would you honestly want a country that prevented you from getting the supplies you need to live to exist? Basically Israel is creating a huge group of future terrorists by forcing these people to live in poor conditions.

No one is asking Palestine to resign. No one is withholding goods from them. The blockade is a weapons blockade. You can travel through it. Further, massive aid is sent to Palestine. Don’t sell that victim stuff. I don’t buy it. Further, no one’s terrorism is the fault of anyone else. When you suicide bomb, etc, that is your decision. And, Hamas is actually the ones withholding aid and slaughtering the Palestinian people. Read that. They are victims of their own government, not the weapons blockade by Israel. What can Israel do to appease this? Stop the weapons blockade? That would be suicide. Get off the land, which means self destruction? There MUST be compromise. Israel is willing to compromise. Palestine is not. That is the bottom line.

 
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MT
I know this. You know this. Many others know this.
Just not the media abusers and their brainwashed victims.
SIGH

SE
Someone is DEAF, right?
Pals were offered many times – they always decline, or don’t hold by the peace treaties.
And I don’t dislike Muslims per se – nor any other GROUP of people, EXCEPT:
Terrorist murderers and their supporters OR silent bystanders.
(And those who call Israel to be one, are simply totally unaware of the history of that region. Or especially the current situation and moods. Oh, and I’m waiting for USA to give land back to Indians. Though Jews are more “Israeli-Indians” than Pals ever were, but who cares, as long as it gives a nice war show, right? Just be aware of the consequences, mind you.)

@all
Let’s make a petition to USA or whatever, to FORCE both Israel’s and Palestine’s ruling powers (aka political representatives) to sit down and formulate a FINAL (no replay or go back) plan that would end the conflict “forever”.
(Backed up by a promise of USA of someone of sorts, to actually militarily intervene, should any side suddenly “disagree” later on.)
Now, what are the chances of it NOT including the removal of Israel (or retreat from at least most of the already “absorbed” AND built over territories)?
You see, Palestine doesn’t want INFRASTRUCTURE (which is independent from actual land size, check Japan for a nice example) – they simply want LAND (and then some MORE LAND, till NONE is left).
And even more so, what are the chances of this PEACE TREATY to actually work for more than a YEAR or so?
Your guesses.

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

DA rear
Hmmm, I wonder – WHY are there still an ENTITY called Palestine, IF Israel is so “territory-greedy and aggressive”?
It could take over the “territories” in between a day or a few weeks, depending on the amount of surviving Pals.
Somehow, nobody ever tried this.
(Nor is Israel the one to OPENLY profess HATRED towards its neighbor – as a “there can be only ONE left” AGENDA.)
Yes, you ARE an idiot.
(A brainwashed idiot, I’m not saying it’s YOUR fault you are such.)
Oh, and learning history ALWAYS helps, you know.

It’s clear you don’t have a grasp on the history of this conflict. You sir are the idiot. You resort to ad hominems because you fail to put a substantive argument. Israel is occupying Palestine. Palestinians don’t want to kill anyone. Only a small minority do. Just like how a small minority of Israelis are extremists. Or anywhere in the world for that matter.

And really? You’re calling me brainwashed? I’m American you idiot. The Zionist media in America is so heavily in favor of Israel you rarely get credible news covering the other side. You have to either watch BBC or Al Jazeera for them to even mention some of Israel’s war crimes. I implore you, read about their history from a non-biased source and come to your conclusions. The facts stand though, you know barely anything about this conflict.

EDIT: Palestine is not the one prolonging statehood, Israel is. They fail to freeze settlements. Every time there is a suspected militant hiding in one of the Palestinian refuges, Netanyahu uses that as an excuse to indiscriminately bomb and kill innocent Palestinians. They committed piracy on the high seas with the Flotilla Raid and also with the USS Liberty. Some Americans died in that incident. There was also a UN compound bombing in which nearly 100 innocent people were killed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/02/us-israel-un-gaza-idUSTRE73126T20110402

The facts are not on your side somebody.

 
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Originally posted by Darear:You sir are the idiot. You resort to ad hominems

Obvious pot and kettle.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Darear:You sir are the idiot. You resort to ad hominems

Obvious pot and kettle.

How about just addressing his points.

 
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His point is that somebody613 is an idiot and should watch al jazeera instead of the media in the US. That Israel is the agressor and that Palestine is the victim?

To the first point: whatever. I’m not watching al jazeera. It’s shit.
To the second point: already addressed it, on this page in fact.

So, I’m just left with him calling somebody613 and idiot, and then accusing him of ad hominem. I think that’s pretty friggin funny.

 
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Darear also suggested the BBC as an alternative to Al Jazeera. Why is that shit, apart from an unsubstantiated opinion? Reasons would be nice, as would addressing Darear’s arguments ratherthan just picking out the insults and dismissing the entire post, and every argument presented within, based solely on those?

 
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And you think the blockade only stops weapons? They stop everything that could be used in weapon production (fertilizers!). And anything that could be used in the construction of bunkers which include most construction materials. And if you want a deal at least a part of Israel will have to be given back because Palestine is currently split up in such a way that if you want to visit any other part you have to go trough Israel. And yes forcing a solution might work as long as set solution is clearly acceptable for both sides and not the US who goes in to “help it’s ally”(probably creating a lot of problems in the area for a long time).

 
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(I never said Israel was blameless, but everything has to be compared and scrutinized – thus HISTORY review is a MUST.)
So you (almost) all tend to forget, HOW all of this started, RIGHT?
Like, 1948:
The retreating Brits suggested/were forced (not the point) to form TWO states – one Jewish, one Arab.
Now, guess WHO declined it (even though it was possible to live peacefully side by side)?
RIGHTNOT Israel at all.
The next day – WHO started the all-out WAR (and lost)?
RIGHTNOT Israel at all.
Since then, WHO openly speaks and seeks to ELIMINATE the other (as a political agenda)?
RIGHTNOT Israel at all.
Also:
There was no such ENTITY as ARAB PALESTINIAN NATION until around 1960-1970, like 20 years AFTER there was an ENTITY of PALESTINIANSTATE”.
(This is backed up by the words of a PALESTINIAN!)
Also, Wiki:

There has never been a sovereign Palestinian authority to explicitly define who is a Palestinian.

Palestinian citizenship during the League of Nations Mandate included both Arabs and Jews as well as other ethnic groups that resided in the territory (Druze, Armenians, Circassians, etc.). During these decades Jews embraced the term (the Palestine Post, the Palestine Brewery, the Palestine Brigades were all Jewish organizations) while the Arabs generally disdained and distanced themselves from it (arguing that Palestine was a “Zionist Invention”).

Another Wiki:

With the establishment in 1948 of the State of Israel, along with the migration of the Palestinian exodus, the common experience of the Palestinian refugee Arabs was mirrored in a fading of Palestinian identity. The institutions of a Palestinian nationality emerged slowly in the Palestinian refugee diaspora. In 1950 Yasser Arafat founded Ittihad Talabat Filastin.

The Palestine Liberation Organisation was founded by a meeting of 422 Palestinian national figures in Jerusalem in May 1964 following an earlier decision of the Arab League, its goal was the liberation of Palestine through armed struggle.
The original PLO Charter (issued on 28 May 1964) stated that “Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the time of the British mandate is an integral regional unit” and sought to “prohibit… the existence and activity” of Zionism. The charter also called for a right of return and self-determination for Palestinians.

Etc etc etc…
So, they suddenly “remembered” it a good 2 decades later and turned it into a WAR reason.
Very peaceful and very “nationalistic” indeed.
(Sarcasm is obvious. I wouldn’t grant those TERRORISTS anything more.)
End of post and point.
Idiots may continue to bash both.
(I mean, it won’t change the TRUTH, you know…)

 
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Alright put name calling aside and let’s discuss what’s true.

You’re right that the British promised a state to both Jews and Palestinians. However the partition plan was drawn by the UN after the British gave up dealing with the plan.
The problem is that the UN drew basically a checkerboard map of areas in which they thought Palestinians and Jews would integrate and peacefully live side by side. That land that had belonged to Palestinians were now in the hands of the new Jewish settlers. Palestinians did decline this but only because they faced substantial land loss in areas where generations of them had lived on. They felt they were giving too much away.

The 1948 war was started in part over land disputes but it was primarily started by Zionist terrorists who massacred Palestinian villages under the leadership of Yashev and other Zionist extremists.

There was a nation called Palestine going far further back than the 1960s and 1970s. I don’t understand your logic there… So the people living there for thousands of years meant nothing because that area didn’t have a defined, invisible border? And I don’t care for that biased source.
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/israeli-war-criminal-list-goes-global/

Dr. Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish anti-Israel advocate, frequently speaks about Israel’s war crimes.

London, December 16, 2009 (Pal Telegraph) – "Professor Norman Finkelstein, accused Israeli of perpetrating war crimes in the Gaza strip through the ongoing siege and January war. His accusation came within an International Conference titled, “UNRWA and Future of Palestinian Refugees”, organized in London. Finkelstein started his speech by placing it in context with the one year commemoration of the siege on Gaza. The causes and effects of this siege are now coming to light, both in the Goldstone Report and in the recent arrest warrant issued by the UK for Tzipi Livni, who stated that she was “proud of everything she had done in Gaza”."
http://www.paltelegraph.com/palestine/gaza-strip/3171-norman-finkelstein-israeli-perpetrates-war-crimes-in-gaza

 
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Darear
First of all – I never said Israel is blameless.
BUT, it never sought and proclaimed a political agenda to DESTROY its neighbors, UNLIKE you-know-who.

There was a nation called Palestine going far further back than the 1960s and 1970s.

PROOF???
Cause I brought quite the opposite notes – that JEWS were considered actual PALESTINIANS, while ARABS didn’t even want that name.
Learn to read, OK?
Also, Palestine:

135 CE: After crushing Bar Kochba’s revolt in 132-135, the Roman Emperor Hadrian applied the name Syria Palestina to the entire region that had formerly included Iudaea Province, which some scholars interpret to have been an attempt to suppress Jewish national feelings.

Now, WHERE were the “proud Arab Palestinians” at THAT time, HUH?
You see, JEWS had never removed their ties with the Holy Land aka Israel (they mention in their prayers: “return to Jerusalem/Zion/Israel” THREE TIMES DAILY!), while ARABS only use it for fueling “holy WARS” (if you know of ANY PRAYER they have, that includes Israel/Jerusalem as a HOLY place – be so kind and provide it).

So the people living there for thousands of years meant nothing because that area didn’t have a defined border?

Yes, JEWS lived there for about 3000 years (till this very day), some 800 of which they even had a JEWISH KINGDOM in there.
Now, have you ever heard of ANY Arab-Palestinian POLITICALLY INDEPENDENT ENTITY before 1948?
I HAVEN’T.

 
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somebody
If you go back to the link you posted, it mentioned the Hebrew people who practiced circumcision and it said the only groups at the time to practice it were Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians. That timeline was 600 years back from where you remarked that the Holy Roman Empire tried to suppress Jewish national feelings. I think you should read that quote again. It mentions nothing of the people living in that region just the fact that the Roman Empire was expanding and suppressed Jewish national feelings.

You sound very angry…

And just because some hardcore Zionist Israelis mention Jews were the majority and lived in the Holy Land of Israel from thousands of years back doesn’t make it so.

I’ve seen people stretch the truth as to Palestine being an independent sovereign nation in 1948 yet never heard of people mentioning that Palestine was only recently created in the 1960s and 1970s.

From an excerpt, "History:Arab people have lived in Palestine for thousands of years. Who are the indigenous people of Palestine? All of them
speak Arabic. They are mainly Sunni Muslim. There are a minority of Christians, Shiite Muslims, Jews, and Druze. European
Jewish settlers began to steadily arrive in 1882 but there was never anything other than an overwhelming Arab majority until
a few weeks before the “Nakba” (Arabic word for catastrophe) otherwise known as the establishment of the state of “Israel”
in the spring of 1948. "

EDIT: Would you like to discuss Israel’s war crimes or acts of aggression in more recent history instead of focusing on the date Palestine or Israel was created? I’d be happy to share evidence.

www.onepalestine.org/resources/flyers/MythHistory.pdf

 
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Da
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg
Anything of such scale by Arabs?
Until provided, nothing to speak about.
Bad example
Bad example
Bad example
Bad example
Cause NONE of them ever formed a SPECIFIC ARAB-PALESTINIAN STATE.
Or we can say, that New York is an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY too. O_o

I couldn’t care less about “Israel’s war crimes”, even if applicable (while in most cases I’d doubt the sources) – as long as the MAIN problem is the INITIAL hatred by “Pals”, which started as early as 1948 – when Israel was just born (and no “crimes” could even be applied).
So, shut the nonsense up – and rather focus on the history of the conflict, not the current idiocies BOTH sides are drowned in.

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

Da
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg
Anything of such scale by Arabs?
Until provided, nothing to speak about.
Bad example
Bad example

Bad example
Bad example
Cause NONE of them ever formed a SPECIFIC ARAB-PALESTINIAN STATE.
Or we can say, that New York is an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY too. O_o

Wow source bomb? You’re acting as if the person with the most sources (Right or wrong, good or bad) is right. I don’t know much about the formation of Palestine or Israel in antiquated history but I do know the actions of the countries matter in recent times.

Also realize you’re delving into religious boundaries and borders that may not reflect changes over time or may not have been recognized by whatever nations or states existed then.

Let’s discuss Israel’s actions post 1948. Tell me who allied with Britain and France to invade Egypt for colonial purposes?

 
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Da
The difference in our approaches:
YOUR
“That bully is beating me up, Mr. teacher!”
MINE
“Yeah, but this idiot kept breaking my pencils and insulting me for an hour! I couldn’t keep tolerating it.”

Well, not exactly, but just to show “CURRENT vs HISTORICAL”.
(I can make a more thorough parable, but I’d say this is enough.)

In a more explicit form:
Israel has HUGE value for the JEWS – and nearly NONE for the ARABS.
So, a few square miles of land are NOT worth waging a decades long war – when it’s ONLY the LAND value kept in mind.
But when it has HISTORICAL (and RELIGIOUS, and EMOTIONAL) value – it’s PRICELESS.
Now, I see NO reason for Israel to be PRICELESS for MUSLIMS/ARABS – if not to PREVENT it from being held by JEWS (who do hold it PRICELESS).
If you know of anything otherwise – I’m waiting for the links.

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

Da
The difference in our approaches:
YOUR
“That bully is beating me up, Mr. teacher!”
MINE
“Yeah, but this idiot kept breaking my pencils and insulting me for an hour! I couldn’t keep tolerating it.”

Well, not exactly, but just to show “CURRENT vs HISTORICAL”.
(I can make a more thorough parable, but I’d say this is enough.)

Whatever you say somebody. That was a bad and confusing analogy. I don’t understand how people justify Israel’s actions by going back two thousand years or more… What matters is current times.

Should we let Turkey invade and capture nations for more land today because after all they did have the Ottoman Empire for quite awhile and did hold those territories.

More of Israel’s war crimes: Also see the Goldstone report.

http://www.thenation.com/article/israels-war-crimes#
http://www.ceia-sc.org/page55/page55.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

 
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DA
PARABLE:
There are two guys in the class.
One was there for some 5 years, but last winter got sick and missed the class for a few months.
In the meantime, a new student was accepted into that class.
He took the first student’s seat, even though it was that guy’s seat since his first class – and other students warned the newcomer about it.
Also, this seat has many stuff on it that bears the name of that guy, it’s even written on the desktop.
The new guy ignored it and kept occupying the seat.
When the old guy became well and came back in the spring, he was negatively surprised by his place being taken.
He first asked the new guy to let him sit there, politely, also showing him at some unoccupied seats nearby.
The new guy was stubborn and said that he was sitting here ever since (though it was really a couple months).
The old guy tried a few times, but to no avail.
He had been sitting there ever since and for him, this place was very important emotionally.
It disturbed him to not be able to sit there.
He asked some teacher for support, but nobody understood his feelings.
So he sat nearby.
The very next day, he got in a fight with the new guy, who was painting HIS name on the seat.
When the teacher came and scolded the older guy, all he could say was: “I’m very emotionally attached to this seat. There are others equally good seats that the new guy could occupy without any problem. He’s just being stubborn to prevent ME from sitting at my old one.”

Not very accurate, but still keeps the main points – there are other seats, the new guy is simply stubborn and malicious, etc.
And nobody understands or cares about the old guy’s feelings…

 
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Except that most of the Palestinians do in fact descent from the yews that lived in the area some 2000 years ago and have since converted. Just because their culture isn’t the same anymore doesn’t mean they lost their claim.

 
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thijser
WHERE is their claim BEFORE 1948???
Can you bring a SINGLE source that they held their living place of ANY value, apart from just being there?
Cause for JEWS, it was a part of their life, as significant as remembering it thrice a day in their PRAYERS.
Whilst for those “descendants” (even if you ignore my link a few posts above by a PALESTINIAN who claimed that “Palestinians have come here from OTHER places”, which he used as a incentive for Jihad propaganda) it never was of ANY personal value, just a few square miles of their shacks and camel-stables.
Israel never took on a form of a NATIONAL symbol for ANYONE but JEWS.
Unless you provide a link otherwise, my point stands HISTORICALLY and CULTURALLY.
You disagree – go prove me wrong.
But with links, not words.
WORDS are the best weapon of baseless propaganda.