America, Israel and Iran page 4

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque
Some very ancient very important sites for al Islamic people. They do think this area is important.

 
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Whoah now. I have some points to pick out here.

Now, WHERE were the “proud Arab Palestinians” at THAT time, HUH?
You see, JEWS had never removed their ties with the Holy Land aka Israel (they mention in their prayers: “return to Jerusalem/Zion/Israel” THREE TIMES DAILY!), while ARABS only use it for fueling “holy WARS” (if you know of ANY PRAYER they have, that includes Israel/Jerusalem as a HOLY place – be so kind and provide it).

The fact of the matter is there was no mainstream unified “arabic” culture at that place, at that time. There was the Sassanid empire, all about the place, which had a great deal of influence upon the subsequent arabic mainstream.

But so what? Five hundred years later, there was. You are arbitrarily setting a defining line that your antagonists fail to meet. It is of no discernible relevance in and of itself. The jewish claim to the land as an area of religious and cultural significance is quite concrete, certainly. ( I do not find that sufficient to go carving nation-states, personally, but it is true.)

Furthermore as a continuation of the abrahamic religions Jerusalem of course remains a place of special relevance for the islamic world, even as their expanded theology included new holy sites. But really, I don’t find whichever culture had the biggest hard on for a chunk of rock for the longest that compelling of an argument for contemporary settlements.

Yes, JEWS lived there for about 3000 years (till this very day), some 800 of which they even had a JEWISH KINGDOM in there.
Now, have you ever heard of ANY Arab-Palestinian POLITICALLY INDEPENDENT ENTITY before 1948?
I HAVEN’T.

Cite some sources please on that jewish kingdom? Scholarly ones, not scripture. Jerusalem has all but always been run by it’s conquerors. Which were many. What is your definition of arab-palestinian and politically independent? Jerusalem was run by Arabic Muslims since they took it from Rome in 634. It wasn’t until 1917 that ever really changed significantly, when Britain took it from the Ottoman Turks.That’s 1200 years give or take.

Your all ALL CAPS argument is silly. This is no secret history, this is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of Arab-Islamic presence. It is plain as day and recorded by everyone, everywhere.

bq.Cause NONE of them ever formed a SPECIFIC ARAB-PALESTINIAN STATE.
Or we can say, that New York is an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY too. O_o

Because they had a large kingdom they have no claim to the territories culturally? That makes little to no sense. The land was run by arabic muslims, along with some other land, lots of other land usually. Jews hadn’t run Israel as an independent country for thousands of years until Britain gave it to them.

Israel has HUGE value for the JEWS – and nearly NONE for the ARABS.

Really? Sit down and honestly think about that for a minute. More then a thousand years of continuous history and occupation, and you seriously think they find that meaningless? Seriously? I mean, that’s just on a cultural-historical level. The other end being “Hey, it’s where my house is” seems to be pretty compelling too.

So, a few square miles of land are NOT worth waging a decades long war – when it’s ONLY the LAND value kept in mind.

What? The actions of the other party would be crazy with the values you’ve assigned them? Right! Probably time to reconsider your assumptions then. How about the Temple Mount? The Dome On The Rock?

But when it has HISTORICAL (and RELIGIOUS, and EMOTIONAL) value – it’s PRICELESS.
Now, I see NO reason for Israel to be PRICELESS for MUSLIMS/ARABS – if not to PREVENT it from being held by JEWS (who do hold it PRICELESS).

Then you aren’t paying attention. What you are doing is simply the demonization of a populace you do not want to sympathize with. You’ve Othered them into the proverbial Enemy and define their actions as Irrational so you do not have to face the inherent similarity their values have to your own which would force you into a position of deeper consideration.

I really do hate trying to have a conversation with you because I feel your emotional commitments prevent you from discussing things rationally and growing as perspectives and knowledge is shared. It’s sad really, and I feel defeated in even attempting to communicate with you. So, you may read this as a personal attack, but really I am not trying to denigrate you here. If you disagree with what I’ve said, then all I can say is try to patiently prove me wrong. I feel the information, and opinions you are presenting here are deeply flawed, and with a little work and reconsideration your appraisal of the situation could be changed.

 
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Cite me one Palestinian claiming RELIGIOUS value of Jerusalem – without mentioning “vile Zionists”.
Cite me one place in Koran that mentions Jerusalem’s (and/or Israel’s) holiness.
(I don’t think, you need me to quote the analogous Jewish sources, right? They’re quite well-known.)
I’m very rational in general – and very hateful towards MURDERERS and LIARS.
(Here comes the “Israel war crimes” shit, right? Totally disregarding the Jihadist way of “waging war” against children and civilians, suuure…)

 
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That post took me forever and I got ninja’d a bunch. So addendum.

just a few square miles of their shacks and camel-stables.

Sigh. Once again you are denigrating them as inherently barbaric and primitive. That is not the case, and is not supported by the historical record. If you really would like, I can find some links. But keep in mind we’re talking more then a thousand years and a handful of different cultures.

Israel never took on a form of a NATIONAL symbol for ANYONE but JEWS.

Jerusalem was actually considered very important to the Christian empire. It was the only piece of land they ever had any religious connection to. Rome was the seat of power, but that had far more to do with political transferance then the veneration of a site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_in_Christianity

But yes, the arabic-islamic nations did not venerate Israel beyond other sites. Nevertheless, that does not mean they did not value it.

EDIT: Yikes, things are moving fast. Catching up.

Somebody, if that is really the sum total of your response to my big post, I would ask you to reread and consider it.

Cite me one Palestinian claiming RELIGIOUS value of Jerusalem – without mentioning “vile Zionists”.

Aha. A doozy of a piece. Here is an examination of the religious value of Jerusalem across the Abrahamic religions. It is written by the Palestine-Israel journal to just record and demonstrate the transcultural significance.
http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=169

(I don’t think, you need me to quote the analogous Jewish sources, right? They’re quite well-known.)

They are. I am not denying that the jewish people have a cultural connection to jerusalem and israel. That is well known. They have the longest continuous connection to the site, culturally, as well. But you go out of your way to trivialize and disregard that any other culture may have a relationship to it as well, which is intellectually dishonest.

I’m very rational in general – and very hateful towards MURDERERS and LIARS.

I would cite this as an example of your argument being dictated by emotion rather reason. There are hundreds, if not thousands of years of history to consider. Countless hands, records, and moments of history. You are fixating on resentment towards the immediate political situation rather then on educating yourself with the historical situation.

 
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I just gave you two important religious buildings cited in Jerusalem. This came from just googling Jerusalem and selected the first two Muslim sounding buildings I found on wikipedia.

 
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Ung
Sure, as another pasture for their camels.
I’m repeating – there never was a SEPARATE political entity in Israel, which SHOULD have been so, if the land was any SPECIAL, not just ANOTHER piece of pasture.
Not to mention, it wasn’t even a CAPITAL there – so much for it’s “importance”…

thi
Aha, one build OVER the remnants of the Jewish Temple (the Western Wall is still there, though).
See above anyways.

 
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Sure, as another pasture for their camels.

Sigh. Once again you are denigrating them as inherently barbaric and primitive. That is not the case, and is not supported by the historical record.

Seriously though, it would be easier to take you seriously if you were less vitriolic, somebody.

 
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From 638-968 it was a quite clear unity. Then it became part of the Fatimid Caliphate until the 11th century when it was conquered by the crusades then it became part of the Ottoman empire then the British came. That means they have a claim from the 7th till the 19th century it was mostly under Muslim control can you give a clear example of the sort of unity you are looking for in reverse (as in Jewish control) so I know what to look for?

 
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Um, as far as I know, they WERE nomads that rode camels – so nothing denigrating in that.
As if “a horse-rider” is denigration for a European knight???
As of my point – waiting for the actual answers, not side-stepping attacks.
To begin with:
Signs of actual specificness of the land for Arabs/Muslims.
(As in, something that would be MAJOR important, not “just another same something”.)

ANYWAYS.
My major point is that Israel has been a cultural focal point for JEWS ever since.
So, until I see similar ARAB/MUSLIM-related sources cited, the rest is pretty unimportant.
If something THAT small, is SO important for someone – the notion of consistently DEFYING this attitude, is nothing more than a stubborn bullying, regardless of anything else.
Cue my “parable” – there are many nearby chairs, but the new guy made his AGENDA to occupy the seat – just to ANNOY/DEFY the old guy.
Same here – that which is of extreme value for ONE side, is being used as a pretext of endless war by the OTHER, while the actual entity is of a minor value for them.
Prove me otherwise, would you?
(No, few-bucks shacks are no reason for murdering children – and raising your own in perpetual hatred.)

 
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Aargh. I’m throwing in the towel. I have tried, and now I am frustrated. I urge you to reconsider your views and consider some of the material presented to you, along with the volumes readily available elsewhere. I don’t feel we are really engaging in a discussion, and your candor is making me angry. Which isn’t any fun at all.

Your approach to this is truly, truly a testament to the problem of Israel. It is this line of thinking that you present that makes progress impossible. You are convinced of your total superiority, refuse to engage the other party as rational human beings, and repeat emotionally driven rhetoric without consideration of even the superficial history let alone any deeper significance. It is this which has damned that region since time immemorial, and it is this which will see nothing but blood and tears for hundreds of years to come.

As I said before when asked on my stance to Israel, “This Is Not My Problem” I can’t fix it, and I want to be as far away from it’s constant fallout as possible. I daresay it deserves what it has become, but my sympathy is always with the good people of any circumstance.

 
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Ung
Well, do you consider preplanned targeting of children as an action of “rational human beings”?
(I could cite quite a few obvious examples of this, and you know that. But one is enough. Some more anyways.)

 
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Well, do you consider preplanned bombardment of villages and cities as an action of “rational human beings”?

 
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Well, I do accept the need of retaliation on the above-mentioned actions.
So, your point is wrong.
(Do I need to let a dog bite me – or should I kick it? Now, with all the GREENS around…)

I’m not demonizing Palestinians – but until they weed out the murderers…

 
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You argument is "they targeted children so we can bomb kill their innocents as well? And by the same logic they bomb children. Until one side proves to be the more mature one both will keep retaliating until one of them is death. I think either the western powers should force Israel to be the mature one.

 
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I think you’re an idiot.
Cause only idiots would ALLOW child-murder to be considered “war action” (as in justified retaliation to anything) and not outright MURDER (per se, which can’t be justified by anything and must be punished) – that should trigger international DIS-approval, not the IDIOTIC “poor Pals” propaganda-fed SHIT.
But I am talking to the wall of stupid Westerners, for whom THEIR BUTT is the PINNACLE of the world…

 
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And you don’t think that any children were among those who died in the retaliation bombing of villages? That they somehow knew where to be to avoid being killed?

 
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thi
Yup, not near bearded guys with rocket launchers, you know.
You can swim in the propaganda shit as much as you want, I resign from trying to explain the stupidity of this…

 
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So 1400 people were standing near bearded guys with rocket launchers at the same time? Sounds a lot more like they either couldn’t aim and by the amount of launches they knew they couldn’t aim and would cause a lot of civilian casualties and didn’t care or that they deliberately aimed for civilian casualties. ( link last page for more info on this bombardment).

 
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SOURCE
SOURCE
SOURCE

Oh, but it was purely self defense, your honor!

 
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thi
If it was MY ability, there wouldn’t be any “Palestine” anymore.
No, not killed – simply moved to the neighboring ARAB countries BY FORCE.
And it would end two problems immediately – destroy a terrorist nest that feeds on “victim” propaganda AND some of the actual victims would find normal homes.
No need to kill actual innocent civilians – but this is no excuse for backing up real terrorists.
So, relocation it would be.
(Oh, but aren’t you rather suggesting the other way around, so that Israel would move – except, WHERE? Aha, exactly. Nobody cares. As always, nothing new, nothing ever changed. Just the label of the idiocy…)

sv
That’s nice – except there’s no statistics as to how many of those PALS were UNARMED.
You see, they DO use their CHILDREN as SOLDIERS – unlike Israel.
So, I’d blame it on the PALS solely.
A child with a gun is a guerrilla regardless.

Oh, and I really want YOUR detailed suggestion as to how to fight those terrorists with rocket launchers, who sit in schools and civilian homes?
LISTENING TO YOUR SUGGESTIONS.
(Let them do it – is a no-answer.)

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:

thi
Oh, and I really want YOUR detailed suggestion as to how to fight those terrorists with rocket launchers, who sit in schools and civilian homes?
LISTENING TO YOUR SUGGESTIONS.
(Let them do it – is a no-answer.)

It’s easy. Pinpoint surgical strikes. Blow the Israeli bastards with the rocket launchers into kingdom come.

 
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How about making sure they don’t want to fire at Israel? If Israel was to show it’s the most mature and began to spent a small percentage of it’s money towards helping some poor Palestinians.

 
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Every single issue, which is as cut and dry, and day and night, as possible, is turn upside down in the liberal’s mind. This Isreal/Iran issue is a perfect illustration of that. Two countries, one of which is your ally, and one wants you dead. Which does the liberal back? The one that wants you dead. What the fuck. Seriously.

 
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Happy new year – maybe the new one will bright out your brains!
I’m off until Tuesday night at least.

 
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Talking of Blighted brains, you are aware it’s September, right Somebody?


@ MyTie. If your neighbor has stood by you for years, and you are fast friends, if you see the cops outside his house, and on going over,find he has murdered his wife, by the same logic you show here the correct action you would take is to argue with the cops that he is your ally and so is not to be touched. When they don’t listen, you blow their brains out with your own gun, as one should never question the conduct of an ally however heinous it might be.

Does that about sum it all up for you?