America, Israel and Iran page 5

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Originally posted by vikaTae:Does that about sum it all up for you?

That’s the shittiest example I’ve ever heard. It doesn’t even closely resemble the reality.

Let’s say that your neighbor, who you have been friends with for years, kicks his wife out into the cold, and locks her out. Your other neighbor, who is a complete asshole to you, beheads 150 children in his front yard, pisses on their corpses, and then gets a rocket launcher, calls you, and tells you he is going to murder your neighbor, for kicking the wife out, and murder you for being his friend. He then pays the local gang members to do drive bys on your “good” neighbor. In the process, some of the cross fire smashes out your windows.

That’s closer to the situation we have.

Every single country I’ve ever read about has committed atrocities in it’s history. Right now, Iran is a despot that murders its own citizens indiscriminately, beheading them by the dozens. Israel, while not perfect, does make efforts toward peace and security. They aren’t even on the same moral level. To try to equate the Israeli blockade to the fact that Iran wants to convert or obliterate entire nations, including yours, is the single dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. I’m stretching the imagination for a word to describe how idiotic it is.

 
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That’s the shittiest example I’ve ever heard. It doesn’t even closely resemble the reality.

Of course it does. Israel is our ally. Every action they take reflects on us as their allies. If they make piss-poor choices and we support them, then we have in effect made the same piss-poor choices ourselves. We will get the fallout from those choices as if we made them ourselves, and rightly so.

So, we have to remain critical of our allies, and examine their choices carefully. If they make a bad one, we protest and announce to all that we do not support them oin this, because it is a bad choice, for reasons U, V, W… Then we remind them and ourselves the value in an alliance is only when your interests converge, and not blind obedience to divergent interests.

They are our allies, so we have to hold them to higher moral standards than we hold our enemies to.

 
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When did I say we shouldn’t hold them to any moral standard? When did I say that they haven’t made mistakes? What the fuck are you talking about?

 
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That’s what you read into my post at the same time you were busy rigging up the strawman, trying to convince yourself I was somehow comparing Israel to Iran. Before you started berating me for the utter stupidity of your strawman.

 
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Wow, somebody turned this topic into who exactly lived on that small piece of land thousands of years ago. I saw an interview with an Israeli member of the Knesset who said something to this effect, ‘We need to unfortunately start a conflict every couple of years.’ If America had some bit of sense it would support Iran and not Israel. It should’ve supported Iran and not Iraq. Remember, we propped up Saddam Hussein and Iraq in turn invaded Iran.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

That’s what you read into my post at the same time you were busy rigging up the strawman, trying to convince yourself I was somehow comparing Israel to Iran. Before you started berating me for the utter stupidity of your strawman.

I “invented” this strawman. The name of the thread is “America, Israel and Iran”. That’s what it says at the top of the page that we are currently discussing. That’s what the whole topic is. If you want to talk about Palestine, I stand by my insistence that Israel and Palestine are not on the same moral ground. Palestine has rejected statehood unless there is no Israel included in the agreement. They call for the removal of Israel, not the other way around. Arguing against Israel, in favor of Palestine, because you feel that Israel needs to be killed because you are harder on them because they are our ally, is equally as stupid as arguing for Iran. So, I ask again, what the fuck are you talking about.

 
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Saying Israel need to be killed and saying Israel should behave in a moral way aren’t the same thing. And it is probably in everyone’s benefit if we can find a solution.

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

Saying Israel need to be killed and saying Israel should behave in a moral way aren’t the same thing. And it is probably in everyone’s benefit if we can find a solution.

Here is what vika said:

It’s easy. Pinpoint surgical strikes. Blow the Israeli bastards with the rocket launchers into kingdom come.
On her planet, this will make things better.

 
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Let’s at least hope war criminals like ariel sharon die slow, painful deaths. In fact he is. Sweet revenge for the 2,000 Palestinians who were murdered by sharon in 1982. But never enough. Netanyahu needs to be tried in the ICJ for his war crimes in the Gaza war.

 
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If that wasn’t a type and suggesting hitting the Palestinian rocket launches (quoting you asking you how to deal with such sites other can complete area wide bombardment )then it looks a lot more like suggesting surgical strikes to take down sites launches missiles aimed at civilians.

 
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Here I thought military strikes against our allies would hurt relations.

Originally posted by Darear:

Let’s at least hope war criminals like ariel sharon die slow, painful deaths. In fact he is. Sweet revenge for the 2,000 Palestinians who were murdered by sharon in 1982. But never enough. Netanyahu needs to be tried in the ICJ for his war crimes in the Gaza war.

Afterward we can charge Churchill for all the murdered German civilians. He should have let those Nazis live. Were the Nazis a thousand times worse to their own civilians? Sure they were. But, you have to be harder on your allies. Am I doing it right guys? Hate yourself and your friends first to prove how tolerant and friendly you are to your enemies. Everyone will love us after that and treat our embassies real nice. All we need is a president who will do an apology tour and then the world will be all right.

Yeah. Blame us first, and bomb our allies. BRILLIANT!

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Here I thought military strikes against our allies would hurt relations.

Originally posted by Darear:

Let’s at least hope war criminals like ariel sharon die slow, painful deaths. In fact he is. Sweet revenge for the 2,000 Palestinians who were murdered by sharon in 1982. But never enough. Netanyahu needs to be tried in the ICJ for his war crimes in the Gaza war.


Afterward we can charge Churchill for all the murdered German civilians. He should have let those Nazis live. Were the Nazis a thousand times worse to their own civilians? Sure they were. But, you have to be harder on your allies. Am I doing it right guys? Hate yourself and your friends first to prove how tolerant and friendly you are to your enemies. Everyone will love us after that and treat our embassies real nice. All we need is a president who will do an apology tour and then the world will be all right.


Yeah. Blame us first, and bomb our allies. BRILLIANT!

Israel is not officially designated an ally, nor should they be. They are against our U.S. interests. They are just a source of problems in that region that further continues fanaticism and terrorism against our U.S. troops.

See, the problem with that logic is that you’re referring all our non-allies as enemies when they are not. Palestine wants to move peace agreements forward. They have said they accept Israel’s right to exist and have done so for decades.

Churchill didn’t call for indiscriminate bombings that murdered innocent German civilians. His generals called for it. It was wrong to do so because some areas like Dresden were so heavily populated with civilians. Netanyahu however did call for those bombings. And they were done in peace time.

I do agree though, Obama should stop his apology tour. We should just get out of that God forsaken region.

Warning, very large PDF file. This UN document is very important. It documents what happened at the Gaza war.
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/unffmgc_report.pdf

 
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At first, I thought you were talking out of your ass, now I know. Israel is an ally of the US. Israel doesn’t indiscriminately bomb Palestine. In fact, Palestine are the terrorists who suicide bomb Israel, and even sometimes use kids to deliver those bombs. Which page of that document shows indiscriminate bombings by Israel? I have my sources listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally (US and Israel are allies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict (history of the conflict in general)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks (Palestinian suicide bombings)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict (Palestinian suicide bombings using children)

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

At first, I thought you were talking out of your ass, now I know. Israel is an ally of the US. Israel doesn’t indiscriminately bomb Palestine. In fact, Palestine are the terrorists who suicide bomb Israel, and even sometimes use kids to deliver those bombs. Which page of that document shows indiscriminate bombings by Israel? I have my sources listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally (US and Israel are allies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict (history of the conflict in general)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks (Palestinian suicide bombings)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict (Palestinian suicide bombings using children)

I am Darear, this is just an alt account.
Let’s list the facts shall we. Israel is not officially designated an ally of the US. Israel DOES indiscriminately bomb Palestine. I gave you the article stating the UN compound bombing which lead to the deaths of humanitarian workers. How in the world do you state Palestine as a nation are full of terrorists who’s sole purpose is to suicide bomb Israel? That’s a malicious charge. Especially considering Israeli Defense Force troops using chemical weapons (white phosphorous) and use children as body shields.

Documented war crimes of Israel
______________________________________________
http://www.thenation.com/article/israels-war-crimes#
http://www.ceia-sc.org/page55/page55.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/unffmgc_report.pdf
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/israeli-war-criminal-list-goes-global/
http://www.paltelegraph.com/palestine/gaza-strip/3171-norman-finkelstein-israeli-perpetrates-war-crimes-in-gaza

 
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Originally posted by JacketMan94:How in the world do you state Palestine as a nation are full of terrorists who’s sole purpose is to suicide bomb Israel?

I don’t.

Originally posted by JacketMan94:Especially considering Israeli Defense Force troops using chemical weapons (white phosphorous) and use children as body shields.
White phosphorous, as in flares? I worked as a weapons troop in the USAF. The USAF uses white phosphorous as well. It’s a chemical that burns white hot, and is very visible. It’s a flare. When was that used as a weapon by Israel? Which one of those links have documented use of children as body shields?

 
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chances of another war is 56%

 
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And now, I hear the Israeli prime minister is coming to New York and wants to meet with Obama, but Obama says he’s too busy – yet Obama’s going on the David Letterman show (filmed in New York!) on the very day he’ll be there.

Wow. Is this snub supposed to send a message, or is Obama too concerned about reelection and not concerned enough about the situation between Iran and Israel?

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Talking of Blighted brains, you are aware it’s September, right Somebody?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashanah
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNewYear/template_cdo/aid/4644/jewish/Rosh-Hashanah.htm

A 1-minute-long Google to brighten one’s ignorance…

 
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Originally posted by Ceasar:

And now, I hear the Israeli prime minister is coming to New York and wants to meet with Obama, but Obama says he’s too busy – yet Obama’s going on the David Letterman show (filmed in New York!) on the very day he’ll be there.

Wow. Is this snub supposed to send a message, or is Obama too concerned about reelection and not concerned enough about the situation between Iran and Israel?

He also has time for the radio host “Pimp with the Limp” in Chicago. How presidential!

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by JacketMan94:How in the world do you state Palestine as a nation are full of terrorists who’s sole purpose is to suicide bomb Israel?

I don’t.

Originally posted by JacketMan94:Especially considering Israeli Defense Force troops using chemical weapons (white phosphorous) and use children as body shields.

White phosphorous, as in flares? I worked as a weapons troop in the USAF. The USAF uses white phosphorous as well. It’s a chemical that burns white hot, and is very visible. It’s a flare. When was that used as a weapon by Israel? Which one of those links have documented use of children as body shields?

Documented war crimes of IDF soldiers firing white phosphorous shells in Palestinian refuges.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes
http://www.hrw.org/node/81760

I could care less if Obama snubbed Netanyahu because frankly I don’t like him either however Obama is too focused on campaigning. Hosting $40,000 dinners with Beyonance and Jay-Z? this man is unfit to be president. Especially considering his Middle East policy is crumbling and he didn’t take actions to bolster security in embassies overseas.

 
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I hate to say it but…i agree with…whoisit? mytie, yes. The political, as opposed to the religious, zionist. The guy people hate for his politics rather than because he’s a lunatic, like the other one.

The topic is about israel, iran, and america. not various repetitive blather about palestine that we’ve all heard before. I can’t even find the original last point before all this meandering about palestinian rights started to pollute the thread.

 
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Originally posted by scorpion1m:

chances of another war is 56%

“Never tell me the odds!”

 
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Back to the topic

The talk is not peaceful

And to throw a hypothetical in as well…with America tied up in Iran…could China think this is the perfect time to ‘take back’ Taiwan?

 
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I think situation in ME is lose lose for muslims on a grand scale.
If Bashar al assad does not stop killing his his own people, that’s muslim blood being spelled for nothing.
If rebels win, chances are Israel will get hold of syria (politically etc)
and hezbollah will lose an important ally, and thorn off the muslims arch enemy’s back will be removed.
Further more if rebels cut their radar link to iran, Israel will be able to launch airstrikes undetected

 
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I think situation in ME is lose lose for muslims on a grand scale.
If Bashar al assad does not stop killing his his own people, that’s muslim blood being spelled for nothing.
If rebels win, chances are Israel will get hold of syria (politically etc)
and hezbollah will lose an important ally
Further more if rebels cut their radar link to iran, Israel will be able to launch airstrikes undetected