Free market capitalism page 2

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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

For thousands of years? Not hundreds of years…but thousands? Not a thousand, but thousands! Really? Please proved some sources. I think once again you don’t know what you are talking about.
But I’m ready to stand corrected.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:
Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

For thousands of years? Not hundreds of years…but thousands? Not a thousand, but thousands! Really? Please proved some sources. I think once again you don’t know what you are talking about.
But I’m ready to stand corrected.

All other forms rely on very strong nationalist governments, which are a new development in the history of mankind. This has brought many good things that made the market less free, such as forcing companies to respect their warranties. All other systems have an epic record of epic failure built over a very short period of time. Any by ‘epic’ I mean, actually ‘epic.’

 
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Beegum, I’m asking for sources to back up your claim that

Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

thousands of years you state…and I do not believe that is true. So I wish for you to povide some solid evidence the Capitalism has been around for thousands of years.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

Beegum, I’m asking for sources to back up your claim that

Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

thousands of years you state…and I do not believe that is true. So I wish for you to povide some solid evidence the Capitalism has been around for thousands of years.

Define capitalism.

 
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Originally posted by Beegum:

Define capitalism.

The system which as was claimed by Beegum, ‘has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years’.

As such it is Beegum’s definition of capitalism which needs defining, and Beegum is the only one who can do that.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by Beegum:

Define capitalism.

The system which as was claimed by Beegum, ‘has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years’.

As such it is Beegum’s definition of capitalism which needs defining, and Beegum is the only one who can do that.

I would say that thousands of years may be somewhat of an over reach and an oversimplification of historical trading systems. But, it is largely accurate. Under free nationalist governments many aspects of this system have been improved to allow for greater social mobility. This appears to be an anomaly that actually underlines capitalism as superior to other systems, which, by attempting to stop the downswings in the market and economy create epic disasters, epic political power, and epic carnage.

Capitalism – “An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.”

It is true that many civilization have collapsed, and their economies were assuredly less controlled than many of today’s. But, this may well be the manner in which immoral activity is supported, not by the actual free market, but by the power structure actually resisting the free market. Of course, the free market then, is definitely ceded as not being perfect. It is, in fact, a reflection of the people in it.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

income inequality:

credit rating:

so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

To claim those graphs show that seems to be quite the manipulation of facts. And also, it’s hard to know exactly what you mean by rampant capitalism. I’d say capitalism can work, but it can also be screwed up pretty easily. Just like socialism, communism, etc.

Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by Beegum:

Define capitalism.

The system which as was claimed by Beegum, ‘has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years’.

As such it is Beegum’s definition of capitalism which needs defining, and Beegum is the only one who can do that.

It was actually MyTie who defined it that way.


Slightly more complicated, but that is really just artistic trappings that have little to do with the functionality of the item. The hexagonal sides would be simple craftsmanship, little trouble there. Sharpening would simply require a pretty brittle graphite mixture, that may take some guess work but really doesn’t sound imposing. The yellow paint would only require pigment and resin, I’ve got both of which growing in my backyard. The exact tone may vary, if we want an exact colour match that may be beyond my means. The brass would be easy enough, I’ve done brass work myself on a much more difficult scale. I don’t have the requisite veins of ore running behind me though. Rubber outside of urban scavenging would be difficult, and I can’t say I am very familiar with that process granted.

But really is the point of the mental exercise to concede that I don’t have limitless resources? That sometimes materials are found outside of my reach? I don’t see how that is any admission of complexity so much as simple logistics. I’d have a real hard time making a coral pendant, because I don’t live anywhere near coral, not because it is some refined work of great complexity.

Even if you did happen have all the resources right near you (and I think this is part of the challenge – the things we enjoy today have resources that come from all over the world and we as an individual aren’t able to access them by ourselves) it would still be difficult to do without relying on other people, as I’m betting you’d end up using tools manufactured by someone else. As Vika said, “You could pick up a couple of rubber trees at your local garden centre if you wished a steady supply of that resource.” But again, that’s going to a garden center which has grown these trees and cared for these trees and probably imported them from somewhere else. No matter how simple something seems, chances are that there is a ton of people who were involved with it in some shape or form.

 
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Originally posted by Beegum:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

credit rating:

so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose.

Income inequality is a sign of entrepreneurship. It is generally, a good thing in a free market. It gives people an incentive to create jobs and wealth. More socialist countries have much difficulty creating wealth as fast as they spend it.

did you look at the images i provided? if “entrepreneurship”, and therefor income inequality, is such a good thing for creating jobs and wealth, then why do none of these countries with a strong “entrepreneurship” have a triple A rating, while i can count 10 countries with tripple A, all within the top three (out of nine) brackets of income equality?

the images were taken directly from the main wikipedia articles, btw. i didn’t device it.

Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

why did you find it necessary to put that in two different posts using two different accounts?

moving on, i have substantiated myself, a substantiation that you have merely questioned and rejected without argument, while you have only a blanket claim.

All other forms rely on very strong nationalist governments, which are a new development in the history of mankind. This has brought many good things that made the market less free, such as forcing companies to respect their warranties. All other systems have an epic record of epic failure built over a very short period of time. Any by ‘epic’ I mean, actually ‘epic.’

the fact that where another system has been tried on a large scale the governments were strongly nationalistic doesn’t really show anything. the US is also quite nationalistic.

and the anarcho syndicalists of Spain didn’t do as horribly as you portray. they were just small and in the middle of a warzone, squashed between communists and fascists.

and actually, those “communist” countries that you may be refering to didn’t fail that epically either, if you compare it to where they came from. Russia was a third world country, Cuba was shit, China was bad, south east Asia was worse. going from bad to bad is not that big of a failure.

in fact, capitalism has prossibly done a worse job in Africa, in the long run.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by Beegum:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

credit rating:

so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose.

Income inequality is a sign of entrepreneurship. It is generally, a good thing in a free market. It gives people an incentive to create jobs and wealth. More socialist countries have much difficulty creating wealth as fast as they spend it.

did you look at the images i provided? if “entrepreneurship”, and therefor income inequality, is such a good thing for creating jobs and wealth, then why do none of these countries with a strong “entrepreneurship” have a triple A rating, while i can count 10 countries with tripple A, all within the top three (out of nine) brackets of income equality?

Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

why did you find it necessary to put that in two different posts using two different accounts?

moving on, i have substantiated myself, a substantiation that you have merely questioned and rejected without argument, while you have only a blanket claim.

All other forms rely on very strong nationalist governments, which are a new development in the history of mankind. This has brought many good things that made the market less free, such as forcing companies to respect their warranties. All other systems have an epic record of epic failure built over a very short period of time. Any by ‘epic’ I mean, actually ‘epic.’

the fact that where another system has been tried on a large scale the governments were strongly nationalistic doesn’t really show anything. the US is also quite nationalistic.

and the anarcho syndicalists of Spain didn’t do as horribly as you portray. they were just small and in the middle of a warzone, squashed between communists and fascists.

and actually, those “communist” countries that you may be refering to didn’t fail that epically either, if you compare it to where they came from. Russia was a third world country, Cuba was shit, China was bad, south east Asia was worse. going from bad to bad is not that big of a failure.

in fact, capitalism has possibly done a worse job in Africa, in the long run.

And I said, ‘define capitalism’. Clearly our economy has gotten considerably off course, and we see, even, reduced social mobility. The market is not ‘free’ if those in power do not let it be free, whether they be big companies, the government, or a combination of the two. This makes it apparent that the government has to have a preference for small business. Also, as I said, the economy is a reflection of the people. Our government is debt ridden because we made it that way… but, also, because it was designed to use debt to cover for incompetence, and eventually to fund whole new government functions. This is a reflection of the peole who make up the electorate, the propaganda used to steer the, the quality of their education, and various other factors. The people are less shy toward debt, have fewer children, have weaker marriages (and related sexual moral standards), less religious understanding, and are more materialistic. There are people who wanted to engineer our society in just this manner in order to undermine the power of capitalism, especially for the benefit of more tyrannical foreign governments. Interestingly, in the 60s, also, it became a common thought that we should not pass our traditions on to our children but decide for themselves. And, of course, the slide of our vital statistics accelerated after that.

This may be hard to understand, but, the US was so successful that some countries in Europe have copied the old system, and used it to turn their economies around, while, in the meantime, the US has adopted socialist policies that have continued to put it on the decline. There are other issues of tradition here as well. I was looking at a meme, where the guy said, “Soccer sucks, if I wanted to watch a bunch of guys struggle to score for 90 minutes, I’d take my friends to the bar.” A European said, it could take 3 or 4 months to score with a girl at a ‘disco’. The US is radically different the Europe in many ways, but, also, for instance in this case… The US is a mixture between very traditionally moral persons, and those with whom a European could quite easily ‘score’. Thus fueling the European myth that Americans are easy and hyper sexualized. This dichotomy is further underlined when others claim that Americans are sexually shy or bashful compared to Europeans.

 
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well in this case i mean unbridled free-market capitalism, which means what it says.

socialism is the persuit to egalise the control over the economy. in that definition, Sweden seems the most socialist, followed by some other countries around there. they seem to be doing something right.

and the economy is not a reflection of the people. in fact, it is in socialism, not in free-market capitalism, because there the economy is plutocratic, not democratic. so it is only a reflection of the rich, really.

and the middle of your post is a tangential rant that’s filled with logical gaps. i’m not sure what you’re driving at there.

oh, it seems you’ve now edited in a lot more of that. i especially don’t get how you call something a “myth”, when you’ve already explained it to be reality.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

well in this case i mean unbridled free-market capitalism, which means what it says.

socialism is the persuit to egalise the control over the economy. in that definition, Sweden seems the most socialist, followed by some other countries around there. they seem to be doing something right.

and the economy is not a reflection of the people. in fact, it is in socialism, not in free-market capitalism, because there the economy is plutocratic, not democratic. so it is only a reflection of the rich, really.

and the middle of your post is a tangential rant that’s filled with logical gaps. i’m not sure what you’re driving at there.

I believe that I pointed out a complex social interaction between government controls and the economy. Socialism, by its nature, collects even more power into the hands of the few, and then in an ideal situation they make the people equal. However, people always seem to want things to be more equal for themselves than for others, and this carries through to government as well. The wage gap, similarly, in a business reflect the management and owners understanding that they are likely to be compelled by their flawed self knowledge to treat compensation more fairly for themselves than for others.

I was not tangental, but further filling in the consequences to the economy of the intracate interplay of the morality of the people and the morality of the economy.

 
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well, socialism is nothing if not economic democracy, really. and like any democracy, if done wrong, it’s just crypto-dictatorship.

but you are now counter arguing something i didn’t argue for. in Sweden, there isn’t any “more power into the hands of the few”. so it does not by nature do what you say.

i can’t make sense about what you said about business. flawed self knowledge? what do you mean by that? and your last sentence doesn’t make any sense at all.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

well, socialism is nothing if not economic democracy, really. and like any democracy, if done wrong, it’s just crypto-dictatorship.

but you are now counter arguing something i didn’t argue for. in Sweden, there isn’t any “more power into the hands of the few”. so it does not by nature do what you say.

i can’t make sense about what you said about business. flawed self knowledge? what do you mean by that? and your last sentence doesn’t make any sense at all.

I think you’re missing the complexity of what I’m attempting to explain about moral human behaviour and the contrast between the US and Europe.

You want to go to Sweden, then we can go to Sweden and I can attempt to explain the interplay of these things to some extent.

It is important to remember, however, that the EU has stated that it is clear that the current banking system has not served us well, and now would be a great time to try something else (which I took to mean some sort of change to the system that guards the banks from public accountability and the government from punishment for fiscal incompetence via easy access to debt).

 
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well, obviously we need the exact opposite of that.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:why did you find it necessary to put that in two different posts using two different accounts?

What are you talking about?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

well in this case i mean unbridled free-market capitalism, which means what it says.

I don’t feel that we have this anywhere in the world really, but correct me if I’m wrong.

 
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don’t be so absolutist Bob. there’s never absolutes. clearly the USA is relatively unbridled, especially compared to Sweden.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

don’t be so absolutist Bob. there’s never absolutes. clearly the USA is relatively unbridled, especially compared to Sweden.

lol.

I believe bob’s point was that there is no absolute, unbridled free-market capitalism, which you seemed to be claiming, until you reversed tracks and became a relativist.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:
Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so no more talk of rampant capitalism is good for the economy ok? it’s over, you lose. the verdict is in.

Correlation does not prove causation. And, I lol at you. Capitalism has proven itself a reliable method of economics for thousands of years.

For thousands of years? Not hundreds of years…but thousands? Not a thousand, but thousands! Really? Please proved some sources. I think once again you don’t know what you are talking about.
But I’m ready to stand corrected.

The Romans used the Denarii thousands of years ago as a form of capital, in exchange for goods and services.

Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:why did you find it necessary to put that in two different posts using two different accounts?

What are you talking about?

Omega, are you going to answer me? What are you talking about two accounts?

 
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Let’s see. Sweden isn’t doing so bad, and has a long history of business freedom. Of course, on of its historical strengths is that it did not participate in WWII. Also, the country is has a fairly homogenous demographic. Their education is quite good and the system is state funded, to some extent, and free market run. I believe that I watched a video (from PBS I think) that included Swedish education, and the teachers they interviewed said they got a lot of their ideas from successful US schools. Likely they didn’t go to US fail schools…

(US in Green, Sweden in Red)
http://www.heritage.org/index/visualize?countries=sweden|unitedstates&src=country

 
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you’re a known sockpuppeteerer, you two talk exactly alike, use similar post style different only in typical length and temperament, have the same position, reply to eachother’s repliers but not eachother.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

don’t be so absolutist Bob. there’s never absolutes. clearly the USA is relatively unbridled, especially compared to Sweden.

lol.

I believe bob’s point was that there is no absolute, unbridled free-market capitalism, which you seemed to be claiming, until you reversed tracks and became a relativist.

where did i claim that?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:you’re a known sockpuppeteerer, you two talk exactly alike, use similar post style different only in typical length and temperament, have the same position, reply to eachother’s repliers but not eachother.

Myself and who?

lol… a known “sockpuppeteerer”? lol. I only use this account, no others. I think this is a sign of your own pride. You think that more than one person couldn’t possible disagree with you. These two people must be the same person. I went through it when everyone assumed I was Jnco (or whatever his name is), then everyone assumed I was somebody613. You liberals are so shocked and appalled when you find out there are people who don’t agree with you. You just can’t bring yourself to believe it.

Whoever you think I am pretending to be two people with, you’re wrong. I guess it doesn’t matter what you believe though. This isn’t the first thing you’ve been wrong about.

 
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If they were sockpuppets why would they use the same avatar?

I’m not going to search through the thread to give you examples, it just sounds a lot, from a quick glance, like you thought the US was an ‘unbridled free market capitalist’ country until it was pointed out to you how ridiculous a claim that is, at which point you switched stories and pretended to be a relativist.

 
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lol. we know you have used sockpuppets MyTie.

If they were sockpuppets why would they use the same avatar?

seems to be one of the defaults if you don’t set an avatar.

I’m not going to search through the thread to give you examples, it just sounds a lot, from a quick glance, like you thought the US was an ‘unbridled free market capitalist’ country until it was pointed out to you how ridiculous a claim that is, at which point you switched stories and pretended to be a relativist.

what? how are you? what… yes, i think the USA is an unbridled free market capitalist country, relative to any other western nation. i’ve always been completely consistent with that. any story-switching is based on your interpretation, not on anything i said.

you’re also putting words in Bob’s mouth, btw.