Countries That Should not be Countries? page 4

132 posts

Flag Post
Originally posted by Sharangir:
Originally posted by Pulsaris:
Originally posted by Sharangir:

But all you ignorant people care about is some silly yellow&black flag. Wake the fuck up, there’s more important things in the world.

What is this “more important” thing then, Sharangir the almighty?

You really can’t think of anything more important than a silly flag? How about everything else?

How about making sure the separatists don’t abolish social security? How about making sure that the separatists don’t turn our country into a tax paradise that ends up fucking over the workers? How about making sure that the separatists don’t get rid of democracy and turns it into a fascist version of Vox Populi where the leader represent’s the people’s voice but the actual people’s voice does not matter? How about making sure that the separatists don’t turn our cities in a police state, where people have no privacy, everyone lives in fear and crime is punished thoroughly while the main cause of crime, wealth disparity, is still there and bigger than ever?

Do you really think the separation of Belgium is their goal? No, it is a means to get to their goal. Maybe you should check what company positions those politicians have, it’ll give you an idea to which interests they represent. Or didn’t you know that they have other jobs besides campaigning for office?

Well, impose your own values on the whole population seems a nice thing to do. If they beg to be slaves, let them be!

EDIT: Actually, I am harsh because I don’t like hateful 15-year-old Skepchick… well, you get my point. I also want to say that I don’t really care if Belgium breaks into halve or not.

It is a general truism of this world that anything long divided will surely unite, and anything long united will surely divide. -Romance of the Three Kingdoms

 
Flag Post

hate when people keep pointing out other problems.
like: “oh, you’re having relationship trouble? well there are people in africa starving!”

everyones problems are important and sohuld be addressed. just remember to schedule urgent tasks if someones life depends on it.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Aneslayer:

Israel…

Yes Israel should not have existed, its like a cancerous tumor in heart of Middle east.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Pulsaris:

EDIT: Actually, I am harsh because I don’t like hateful 15-year-old Skepchick… well, you get my point.

No, I don’t get your point, please elaborate.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by Aneslayer:

Israel…

Yes Israel should not have existed, its like a cancerous tumor in heart of Middle east.

If that’s true, So’s Pakistan for the Indian subcontinent.

There’s plenty of ‘cancers’ in the middle east to go around without exceptionalizing one country in particular (just like in central/south asia). It’s pretty ignorant to think if you just got rid of israel everything would be happy days over there.

 
Flag Post
Belgium really does seem like it should be split up. Flanders can become part of the Netherlands again and Wallonia with France or Germany, and have Brussels as its own jurisdiction since it’s the EU capital.

well, more or less, but it’s not really the capital, because the EU doens’t have a capital, because it’s not a country. but yes, that’s the seat of the EU parliament.

but so what? why does that mean it should be it’s own jurisdiction? what does that even mean? it can’t be it’s own country, because it’s too small for that. well it could, but it’d be silly.

 
Flag Post

What’s all this about carving up Belgium? Do you guys not like Belgium? Belgium exists for a wide variety of reasons.

1. Because it served as a buffer between France and Germany during that 50 year stretch Europe liked to explode every now and then in clouds of mustard gas. It still does, mind you, just nowhere near Belgium.

2. Because it is one of the most proactive members of the UN, and works to keep peace with the rest of the world.

3. Because it can, and I’d like to see any of you do anything about it.

4. So France and Spain stopped fighting there, and started fighting inside countries like France and Spain.

5. So France and Austria stopped fighting there and started fighting in places like France and Austria.

Belgium has created much stability as a nation.

 
Flag Post

Same for Belgium, there is only one problem in Belgium: We have too much governments

Too much? Belgium holds the world record for a democratic country not having a government. How little do you actually want?

Do you guys not like Belgium?

I like Belgium. I have many happy memories of being there. I was taken on a pub crawl round Brussels aged 11. My father was billeted there during the war and looked up the family he stayed with. They showed us round the city stopping at every bar along the way. I was mightily impressed by the Atomium, which was new at the time. I like the chocolate, the onion soup, the ridiculously cheap tobacco, and the beer is, well, it’s certainly different. And I like all those seafood restaurants on the waterfront in Ostend.

If ever a country needed to be split it’s the USA. I see it on many levels as a country at war with itself. If the civilised and progressive states could get rid of the dead weight of the bible belt, and probably a few other states as well, what was left of the USA might be able to fly again. That would allow the rest to wallow in the primeval mud, untouched by science or modern political thinking. Everyone would be happy except the Mexicans, who would have to deal with all those pesky rednecks crossing the border looking for jobs and affordable medical care.

 
Flag Post
What’s all this about carving up Belgium? Do you guys not like Belgium?

outsiders don’t care much, but Belgians often feel tension about being one country with people they don’t feel any cultural ties to, so they kinda want it and don’t want it at the same time.

1. Because it served as a buffer between France and Germany during that 50 year stretch Europe liked to explode every now and then in clouds of mustard gas. It still does, mind you, just nowhere near Belgium.

lol. when has Europe ever exploded recently in a cloud of mustard gas, aside from maybe Yougoslavia 15 years ago? and before about 50 years ago we used to explode for basically all of history. and Belgium, of course, was sprung as a buffer between the Netherlands and France, because it got conquered both ways so often. Germany is only a minor role in it, and France and Germany have now become big friends.

but anyhow, all your arguments relate to defence and claiming right to exist. why would you do that? no outsiders are interested in carving up Belgium. only Belgians seem to have this desire.

Too much? Belgium holds the world record for a democratic country not having a government. How little do you actually want?

aside from municipal and provincial governments like all countries have, they have seven. one federal for the entire country, one for Flanders, one for Wallonia, one for Brussels capital region, one for Dutch-speaking Belgium (including parts of Brussel and excluding a small part of Flanders in the south-west where they speak French), one for French-speaking Belgium, and one for German-speaking Belgium which is part of Wallonia.

 
Flag Post

I hadn’t realised that. It explains why having no central government for eighteen months didn’t seem to make any difference to them.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

outsiders don’t care much, but Belgians often feel tension about being one country with people they don’t feel any cultural ties to, so they kinda want it and don’t want it at the same time.

I feel this one is entirely made up by media and politicians so people will support the pro-separatist agenda. There is no different culture in Flanders and Wallonia. We live in a time of world-culture. Everyone listens to different music, everyone likes different visual art, everyone eats various foods, everyone goes out to different places. And this concept is bigger than ever with the rise of the internet. There is no Flemish or Walloon Culture anymore, so there is no culture difference either. I frankly don’t think the people would really care either, if only the politicians constantly portrayed in the media stopped saying those one-liners.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Sharangir:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

outsiders don’t care much, but Belgians often feel tension about being one country with people they don’t feel any cultural ties to, so they kinda want it and don’t want it at the same time.

I feel this one is entirely made up by media and politicians so people will support the pro-separatist agenda. There is no different culture in Flanders and Wallonia. We live in a time of world-culture. Everyone listens to different music, everyone likes different visual art, everyone eats various foods, everyone goes out to different places. And this concept is bigger than ever with the rise of the internet. There is no Flemish or Walloon Culture anymore, so there is no culture difference either. I frankly don’t think the people would really care either, if only the politicians constantly portrayed in the media stopped saying those one-liners.

This I agree, but language remains a problem. Not that it really causes some differences or problems but people tend to classify their ingroups and outgroups by language, because language is an easily discernible feature of a person. Just like you won’t feel you “belong” when you are white and others are black. Especially when technology still doesn’t fully solve the language barriers (look at those funny Google Translations!), language, just like skin colour, is a tool to divide people. This kind of discrimination is frowned upon by modern moral standards, but it lies deep in human nature. A white toddler hates a black toddler not because of racism, but because the black toddler doesn’t look like the white toddler, and thus the white toddler naturally expresses rejection. Deep down, we still think that I am the best and we are the best.

You can see that many independence movements are based on language differences, like Catalonia, Tibet, or Quebec.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Sharangir:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

outsiders don’t care much, but Belgians often feel tension about being one country with people they don’t feel any cultural ties to, so they kinda want it and don’t want it at the same time.

I feel this one is entirely made up by media and politicians so people will support the pro-separatist agenda. There is no different culture in Flanders and Wallonia. We live in a time of world-culture. Everyone listens to different music, everyone likes different visual art, everyone eats various foods, everyone goes out to different places. And this concept is bigger than ever with the rise of the internet. There is no Flemish or Walloon Culture anymore, so there is no culture difference either. I frankly don’t think the people would really care either, if only the politicians constantly portrayed in the media stopped saying those one-liners.

i disagree that there’s no such thing as local cultures. just because we are developing something of a global culture, doesn’t mean local cultures disappear. Americans for instance have a national culture, but also more local cultures. in fact, so do the Dutch. it’s not mutually exclusive.

and nationalism is on the rise again, and very strong in Flanders. which means what you’re saying patently false. you may feel that way, but many people don’t. why do you think nationalism is so popular in Flanders? it ain’t coincidence…

why did you think Dutch people rejected the EU constitution? because we’re Dutch, not European. and in fact, most Dutch people don’t even identify as Dutch, but as Limburger or Achterhoeker or so.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Pulsaris:

You can see that many independence movements are based on language differences, like Catalonia, Tibet, or Quebec.

They have actual political reasons. Catalonia, Tibet, Quebec… hell even scotland independence movements are backed up by people who are not pleased (to say the least ;D) with their government and hope that splitting will give them a government that they are actually pleased with. But that seems to me like ignoring the nature of representative “democracy”. Which is highly influential rich people trying to make their neo-liberal and conservative policies sound popular and getting away with it. (Or in Tibet’s case move towards a caste-system dictatorship.)

PS: You forgot to elaborate.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

i disagree that there’s no such thing as local cultures. just because we are developing something of a global culture, doesn’t mean local cultures disappear. Americans for instance have a national culture, but also more local cultures. in fact, so do the Dutch.
it’s not mutually exclusive.
and nationalism is on the rise again, and very strong in Flanders. which means what you’re saying patently false. you may feel that way, but many people don’t. why do you think nationalism is so popular in Flanders? it ain’t coincidence…

Oh come on, waving a flag isn’t a culture.

And why is it popular? Because people are stupid and don’t read about politics, history or economics, so they accept propaganda as truth.

why did you think Dutch people rejected the EU constitution? because we’re Dutch, not European. and in fact, most Dutch people don’t even identify as Dutch, but as Limburger or Achterhoeker or so.

We weren’t even allowed to vote on that. :)

There’s also many logical reasons to oppose a EU-wide constitution, but identity isn’t one imo, that’s an appeal to emotion.

 
Flag Post
There’s also many logical reasons to oppose a EU-wide constitution, but identity isn’t one imo

ok, not identity. what then? culture is more than identity. for instance, we have our own way of dealing with drugs issues. we like it that way, and are not gonna change it. we haven’t changed it in spite of incessant complaining by France and other nations, we won’t change for a EU constitution. (edit: actually, we did make some retarded stupid concessions…)

you can say it’s not identity but political, but it still has to do with culture, and stuff like that can still be a reason for Belgians to want to split from the other half (as well as to not want to be absorbed by a bigger country)

and from what i hear the Flemish don’t even know anything about the Walloons, and Walloons detest both Dutch and Flemish.

 
Flag Post

They have actual political reasons. Catalonia, Tibet, Quebec… hell even scotland independence movements are backed up by people who are not pleased (to say the least ;D) with their government and hope that splitting will give them a government that they are actually pleased with.

Quebec has no viable independence movement. They haven’t for over a decade. Rather, their ideologues use the idea of independence to get favours from the federal government – more money, more restrictive french-only laws, and a blind eye for racism towards immigrants.

There’s also many logical reasons to oppose a EU-wide constitution, but identity isn’t one imo, that’s an appeal to emotion.

Politics is not wholly logical, nor would anyone want it to be if they understood what such a society would look like. On the other hand, identity politics is not wholly emotionally-driven either. Even if it were I don’t understand how that would make it somehow irrelevant.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Ivan62300:

a bit puzzled on the existence of Belgium. I can’t seem to find much historical or cultural basis for wedging a country like that into the middle of The Netherlands and France. From what I’ve heard, it does not hold itself together as a country well. So what is it doing there, then? Why is the area not just divvied between The Netherlands and France?

Belgium ftw, don’t say Belgium isn’t a real country!

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by Aneslayer:

Israel…

Yes Israel should not have existed, its like a cancerous tumor in heart of Middle east.

If that’s true, So’s Pakistan for the Indian subcontinent.

There’s plenty of ‘cancers’ in the middle east to go around without exceptionalizing one country in particular (just like in central/south asia). It’s pretty ignorant to think if you just got rid of israel everything would be happy days over there.

Every thing will be happy days in middle east.
and tell me how come Pakistan be a tumor?
Did we invad India?
Did we force Indians out?
Were we a small minority?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Captain_Catface:
Originally posted by Aneslayer:

Israel…

Exactly what I was going to say.

Yup

 
Flag Post

So we’ve heard arguments about how Belgium is a buffer state between the French, Germans, and Dutch, but is a buffer state really necessary? Would the fabric of european diplomacy tear if Andorra were to suddenly cease to exist? Would Asia fall apart if Nepal were not to separate China and India? Would Russia become a Middle Eastern power if Georgia and Armenia were not there to stop them?

 
Flag Post

If Belgium ceased to exist tonight, Europe and the rest of the world would trundle on regardless. The only repercussion I can see is that Brussels, being the epicentre of the EU, would be the subject of a huge and unnecessary argument about its eligibility to remain the home of the European parliament, and a couple of dozen other nations would all try to claim it was their turn to host it. But that’s not a very good reason why it shouldn’t be a country.

 
Flag Post
and a couple of dozen other nations would all try to claim it was their turn to host it

meh. those things usually have a way to sort itself out. plus it’s only a seat of parliament, nothing too crazy.

 
Flag Post

So a friend brought this up with me: What about the various arbitrarily drawn borders of african nations? Should those be redrawn, and if so, how so? How will a continent torn by war and strife suddenly be warped into different nations?

 
Flag Post

maybe not entirely accurate, but something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2k8bFM5fVY&list=FLEiX_CkddScLCvU3f39VuBQ

also, what about the states of the USA?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Ivan62300:

So a friend brought this up with me: What about the various arbitrarily drawn borders of african nations? Should those be redrawn, and if so, how so? How will a continent torn by war and strife suddenly be warped into different nations?

It’s a bit late for that now, and would be a new source of interminable arguments and wars over prime agricultural land, mineral resources and especially water resources changing hands.

The colonial legacy in Africa is by no means the only example of arbitary borders being drawn, just one of the most glaring (and trendy) ones. There are many more instances of such borders, and every time there is a war they tend to shift again.