Secession of States post Obama re-election page 10

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Originally posted by softest_voice:

Sorry sorry, just one other thing;

I liked the part of Jhco’s argument where anyone who has different values from him, automatically has “no values, only greed”.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Our country’s founding fathers felt we needed to be armed so we could take back our country by force of arms if necessary, but now I’m wondering if we have enough men, real men willing to sacrifice, to do it.

It’s not sexist in the slightest, to completely ignore the possibility that women might feel the same way as men…. Of course, since in this case he’s referring to the batshit insane, that is probably ‘good’ sexism, if such a thing even exists.

 
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I particularly like the

  • Protest of war: NOT OK.
  • Armed insurrection: OK.

paradigm. I mean…that’s just amazing.

 
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Well, both are glorifying combat. He’s clearly never actually been in combat, if he’s glorifying it to that extent.

Plus I would love to see this laughable ‘self-sufficiency’ he speaks of. You know the part of it where he is completely reliant on the things he finds and makes himself, and not at all reliant on services provided by others. Things like electricity, gas, water, sewage, internet, phone line, police, fire services, purchased food et al.

He’s making his own firearms, and finding the raw materials to make his own shells, as after all, he is completely self sufficient. Right?

Presumably when they run out of shells, this armed insurrection of his will be fifty elderly men dressed in bearskins, snarling and waving pointy sticks at the Whitehouse.

 
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Quiet wit yer soshulizm woman!!!

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Talk about spin. Why is it so important for you guys to just fall behind Obie-wan-Acorn-obi?

No one here is just falling behind Obama. He is just a lot closer to the ideals of progressive America concerning modern civil and human rights than anything the right had to offer. He actually gets a lot of flak for making mistakes, its just that the mistakes you see and the mistakes we see are entirely different.

Do you really think he is so godlike he will make all your dreams come true?

As said the opposite is more true. We know he has faults, makes mistakes and can not make all are dreams come true. But then thats to be expected he is an American President, so the bar for expectations is already dreadfully low. Despite being an American President he is doing quite a good job.

Oh yeah, unemployment is not expected to get any better for at least 3years from now? How in the hell is this growing our economy? They are expecting another, deeper recession this coming year.

Did they say which financial Bubble is expected to burst?

And you guys call this good leadership? I know, you can just blame it on Bush and conservatives, because the rabid left certainly won’t take the blame for this economic mess we have lived with for four years…much less the next four years.

No the economic mess can not just be blamed on Bush and conservatives, even the most of the responsibility for the current mess does lay at there feet. There are other Factors that played important roles. But eve with that said the rabid left is actually not to blame for the economic mess. They have no power in US Politics. Obama is a moderate.

The rabid left today is about things that make Obama and most Democrats look conservative. Like for example a guaranteed entitlement to a unconditional basic income(everyone gets enough money to live a comfortable basic existence those that want more can work and pay taxes), employee ownership of companies(no longer the state but the individual employees all get a share) and so on.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Like for example a guaranteed entitlement to a unconditional basic income(everyone gets enough money to live a comfortable basic existence those that want more can work and pay taxes).

I could actually agree with this, but only if we lower the cost of living far below current levels. In other words make it cheaper than current welfare payments to do this.

Quite achievable, but a heck of a lot of work to get to that stage.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
Here is a blog that discusses the “Occupy Wall Street” movement and gives a weeebit of “insight” as to what 99%-1% means.

I’d be more inclined to listening to OWS’ points if there wasn’t a trail of thuggery following it around.

LOL….good grief.
In YOUR very own words it the rebuttal I really don’t need to make…...FOLLOWING IT AROUND.

Had ya said LEADING IT,,,then I might see a point to discuss.
BUT, most any cause, left or right oriented, has this fringe group of FOLLOWERS…among an assortment of other NON-REPRESENTATIVE “attachments”. One of which is the utter bullshit running commentary by those who oppose the concept and offer little-2-NO actual, rational opposing points. Ya know, like YOU just did.

Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by issendorf:
Seriously, what economic indicators are you looking at that blame the Republicans for ruining the economy from 1989-now?

The part where Rupublicans have held the Presidency for most of the time since the Reagan years, thus meaning that it is enitely their fault for the recession. And no-one cares about Clinton, so he doesn’t count.

issen, there are “indicators” that can be interpretated (skewed?) in so many ways as to end up believing O.J. Simpson is responsible.

For me, the issue is one of “the big picture”. That being that Republicans are well known AND even self-touted as the party that believes strongs in business and even more typically,,,hugely supportive of BIG business because it likely can do BIG things in establishing and maintaining the American social values the Republicans so luv to stress (in order to pander-4-votes) as being as vital as business interests…..but yet, amazingly fail to deliver any meaningful measure of these values.

All which astoundingly results in the bulk of Americans, who vote the Republican tickets, w/ near nothing to show for this support in the way of any real results on these social values and have actually voted against their own best interests in the fiscal arena.

This “big picture” I’m talking about is most important in that fiscal arena and squarely addresses the current discussion about American economics. Big business has little interest in the little guy in America….other than as a means to accomplish manufacturing as an end to their “bottom line”. Big business will totally fuck over its workers if it can in any way enhance that bottom line. One huge example is the shiping of jobs overseas or outright foriegn labor competition against American workers for products.

Or course, we can go into DEREGULATIONS that hugely benefit big business which typically are at the expense of the little guy//worker.

Lest it be said that the Democrats in power in Washing are any too much better,,,,even though they show more “benevolent support” for social ills, they still know which side of the toast is buttered. Money talks…it screams. Big business has lots of money. Congress tends to listen to the loudest (and most luxurious) influences. The little guy is poorly organized and thus…represented.

The decline of the middle class began nearly 3 decades ago.
Ergo, unemployment among them is going to increase.
Have ya ever heard of a serious, bankruptcy decline for the 1%?

Get real here: Give serious thought to…the rich keep on getting richer and the poor just get poorer as a result.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Talk about spin. Why is it so important for you guys to just fall behind Obie-wan-Acorn-obi?

No one here is just falling behind Obama. He is just a lot closer to the ideals of progressive America concerning modern civil and human rights than anything the right had to offer. He actually gets a lot of flak for making mistakes, its just that the mistakes you see and the mistakes we see are entirely different.

Do you really think he is so godlike he will make all your dreams come true?

As said the opposite is more true. We know he has faults, makes mistakes and can not make all are dreams come true. But then thats to be expected he is an American President, so the bar for expectations is already dreadfully low. Despite being an American President he is doing quite a good job.

Oh yeah, unemployment is not expected to get any better for at least 3years from now? How in the hell is this growing our economy? They are expecting another, deeper recession this coming year.

Did they say which financial Bubble is expected to burst?

And you guys call this good leadership? I know, you can just blame it on Bush and conservatives, because the rabid left certainly won’t take the blame for this economic mess we have lived with for four years…much less the next four years.

No the economic mess can not just be blamed on Bush and conservatives, even the most of the responsibility for the current mess does lay at there feet. There are other Factors that played important roles. But eve with that said the rabid left is actually not to blame for the economic mess. They have no power in US Politics. Obama is a moderate.

The rabid left today is about things that make Obama and most Democrats look conservative. Like for example a guaranteed entitlement to a unconditional basic income(everyone gets enough money to live a comfortable basic existence those that want more can work and pay taxes), employee ownership of companies(no longer the state but the individual employees all get a share) and so on.

Johnny, you are using the exact talking points of the left. He is the president, he can’t afford the type of mistakes he is making…they affect too many people. And let me tell you progressivism is the same as far left liberalism. Is this what you are trying to say to us, we should accept the far left agenda or we are terrible, uncaring people?

I don’t think we have any bubbles left to burst. I would guess it is just a deterioration of what has also occurred, as I don’t think we have ever got out of the first recession.

Obama is not and has never been a moderate. He tried to present himself as one during the elections, but he had to do a lot of wiggling to get there. The election is over and he is able to sit back to his far left ideals again. This time he doesn’t have to answer for his actions.

What pray tell is conservative about guaranteeing people an income? That is a socialistic ideal, spreading the wealth? I wonder, do they do that in other countries? If so, where do they get the money? Support from the US taxpayer?

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Like for example a guaranteed entitlement to a unconditional basic income(everyone gets enough money to live a comfortable basic existence those that want more can work and pay taxes).

I could actually agree with this, but only if we lower the cost of living far below current levels. In other words make it cheaper than current welfare payments to do this.

Quite achievable, but a heck of a lot of work to get to that stage.

And tell us. who is responsible for inflation? After all, that is what makes prices rise. Oh yeah, government. They cause it with regulations and taxes, causing raw materials and wages to go up. When company is taxed by government, who do you think ends up paying those taxes? We do as the companies pass those taxes down in higher prices.

 
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Inflation is caused by there being more available money without there being more available services and goods (or less goods and services with the same amount of money).

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Exactly! But who is going to fix it? Obama had four years, did he fix it?

Because you can totally fix a down-falling economy in four years.

Now he has four more and he is pushing the same rhetoric as before. See a trend there? More of the same?

… It’s not even been a fucking month and a half since he won the election, for God’s sake, stop being so fucking pessimistic and try to bring everyone else down with you.

Honestly, at this point, I’m thinking that you’re just a really sore loser.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Johnny, you are using the exact talking points of the left. He is the president, he can’t afford the type of mistakes he is making…they affect too many people.

Becasue you know what’s right for America, and how to fix its economic problems.

And let me tell you progressivism is the same as far left liberalism. Is this what you are trying to say to us, we should accept the far left agenda or we are terrible, uncaring people?

I thought he was talking about how the progressive people in America sided with more of Obama’s ideals.

Obama is not and has never been a moderate.

I guess we should give him a medal for getting elected then, since it’s generally hard to get elected when you’re not largely moderate.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Johnny, you are using the exact talking points of the left. He is the president, he can’t afford the type of mistakes he is making…they affect too many people.

I have yet to know of any President especially American that did not make mistakes, including the types of mistake this president is making. As far that goes the bar is set relatively low as i already said. Mitt Romney was already making them it great numbers during his campaigning.

And let me tell you progressivism is the same as far left liberalism. Is this what you are trying to say to us, we should accept the far left agenda or we are terrible, uncaring people?

No. 1. progressivism is not the same as far left liberalism. But its not surprising that you would claim such. We all know you have problems with not confusing even the simplistic differences of political ideologies such as socialism and communism.
2. The far left agenda is not even a talking point of current democrats. Not even accepted by me even though i am even more left than the Average Democrat especial more left than Obama. So your not making any sense.

I don’t think we have any bubbles left to burst. I would guess it is just a deterioration of what has also occurred, as I don’t think we have ever got out of the first recession.

If there were no bubbles left to burst, then a even greater depression would be quite impossible to happen in a year or so. Personally i know of several Bubbles here in Germany but none of them are currently big enough to be such a threat. Thats why i asked. If they can predict such a drop in the economy they should be able to say specifically why, otherwise it comes of as one of the weak tries at a self fulfilling prophecy(make people scared and use this fear to manipulate the market).

Obama is not and has never been a moderate. He tried to present himself as one during the elections, but he had to do a lot of wiggling to get there. The election is over and he is able to sit back to his far left ideals again. This time he doesn’t have to answer for his actions.

Lol.

What pray tell is conservative about guaranteeing people an income? That is a socialistic ideal, spreading the wealth? I wonder, do they do that in other countries? If so, where do they get the money? Support from the US taxpayer?

Sigh your reading skills where not really at optimum at the time you responded to my post, was it? I tried to give you insight into some of the real far left ideas out there. Guaranteeing People a unconditional basic Income is generally not conservative(there are some conservative exceptions), its an idea generally supported by no one other than the far left. It is one of things that make it easy to distinguish the moderate left(and especially the democratic right in the US) from the rabid left.

Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Like for example a guaranteed entitlement to a unconditional basic income(everyone gets enough money to live a comfortable basic existence those that want more can work and pay taxes).

I could actually agree with this, but only if we lower the cost of living far below current levels. In other words make it cheaper than current welfare payments to do this.

Quite achievable, but a heck of a lot of work to get to that stage.

And tell us. who is responsible for inflation? After all, that is what makes prices rise. Oh yeah, government. They cause it with regulations and taxes, causing raw materials and wages to go up. When company is taxed by government, who do you think ends up paying those taxes? We do as the companies pass those taxes down in higher prices.

Inflation is based on many things, but hardy anyone else could get it a wrong as you. The government, regulation and taxes are generally not responsible for inflation in general (there are specific exceptions, but they are not responsible for the general yearly inflation).
The primary causes for inflation are interest rates, then a long time nothing and then shifts in demand and supply and then other stuff.

Now to the basic general unconditional income, it can generally only work in a closed system. Like many of the economic ideas of the extreme left and right, they only work if there are not other competing countries out there with their own economic desires and systems. Otherwise to much money will bleed out of the country through imports.

Personally i consider the unconditional part not so good. As a social worker i can see the result not having a job(daily task) has on many of our clients. While giving most of our clients Money unconditionally might solve a small number of problems for them, it actually creates a lot as well. People that actually need help to change their lives in a constructive manner will drop out of the eyes of the system. Instead of getting help to become happy members of society with a energizing job/ daily activity, they become degenerating vegetables. Mostly wasting their lives away without a daily and social structure outside of the TV (or Internet game) schedule.
Such degeneration can be commonly seen in senior residencies where everything is done for the residents from cooking to housework. The seniors in such environments generally quickly lose many of their initial abilities and degenerate quickly. Studies show that with a combination of mild physical sport courses and light assigned tasks/challenges many people in such homes can regain their ability to live more independently.

Thats why i am more of fan of the in my country common idea of support and challenge. Giving people support when they are down but also challenging them to better themselves. Unlike our right that like to claim the same slogan but mean challenge more as punishment and demand as well as a excuse to reduce support, the idea of the social left and moderates is to give them achievable challenges and support them in overcoming these challenges. So that the people learn to become self empowered members of society and not degenerated vegetables (or more common in Americas case criminals).

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Yes I do Tenco. Read the liberal posts. Obummer can do no wrong.

Whoever—BESIDES YOU—has made a statement anywhere close to this?
HOW fucking crazy can one be to ask exceedingly dumb questions and then swear they are the truth because they answer them theirself?

Yes, he is not a leader to make America better, just to lead us down the dark tunnel of ruin.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I would repsond to this childish stance were I not laughing too hard to do so.

Look at how much debt we have accumulated since the election and it isn’t about to slow down unless we actually go over the fiscal cliff.

Ohooooo…boy,,,
I’m damn glad the govt. & media have stumbled upon a new talking point for YOU to morph into YOUR “paranoia-induced” tiatribes of gloom&doom. We didn’t “accumlate” debt since ’08…it was ALWAYS THERE. All YOU are able to see are the checks being written “by Obama” to pay on them. Get it?

I do think both parties want this so they can raise taxes on the whole of the people. After all, it is not them but the fiscal cliff that did it.

jake-o, keep an ear peeled….your country will be callling ya any day now to go to Washington to become our Savior Czar of All Things Politically Wrong.

What is to be optimistic about?

Hmmmmmm…maybe: Christmas is coming and Black Friday was right up there in numbers cmpared w/ even “boom” years. Even if ppl aren’t spending money earned…THEN, they’re “spending credit”,,,,,something NOT give out if hopes of having it paid back are slim.

Yomama promised more of the same.

AND….I’m glad he did.
We certainly need it,,,
need it as something to build on and rebuild the middle class and rein in the totally crazy upper oligarchy.

Well, for those who voted for them, I hope they all lose their homes and live on the streets.

Well…..there ya go, folks.
Jake-o abhors Gays, ppl who give//get abortions,,ppl who believe guns should be regulated much like drugs are (OOOOooooopppppps….a huge contradiction just popped up).
NOW, we see just how much he hates anyone that votes different than he.
Geeeezzzze, Louise.
Both, the economy is stagnated and there are no signs of improvement, in fact since the election the indicators have gotten worse.

OH,,,would ya care to give some links that aren’t totally bias-skewed as to be seen as outright lies by anyone other than the most ardent of toe-jam-eatin’ fools?

My driving around Wichita (and a few other cities) shows all manner of healthy confidence in our economy. jake-o, take of the “shit-colored glasses” and take a good look at what is happeining in America…..THE REAL AMERICA.

They in this this case are the liberals. You know, the ones who want more of the same we have had for four years?

Good, typical response, always blame someone else.

Eeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrr…..we have met the enemy,,,and he is us.

Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by tenco1:

And one way to fix that is for everyone on both sides to stop pointing fingers and blaming people, and try to find something to fix this.

Exactly! But who is going to fix it? Obama had four years, did he fix it? Now he has four more and he is pushing the same rhetoric as before. See a trend there? More of the same?

Did YOU have even an inkling of what tenco was saying?
Do YOU not understand that what ya responded w/ is EXACTLY what he was driving at?
Do YOU not see that it is YOU who has been pushing the same shit-rhetoric as beforeALWAYS?
 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Yes, you can make a turn around that would at the very least show some kind of improvement.

And unless I’m wrong about this, in which case feel free to provide hard evidence that says I’m wrong, there are signs of improvement.

It seems you are saying, forget the last four years and let’s have a do over for another four years.

Then let me make my self more clear, what I mean is that the first four years can bascially be called a “buffer zone” and, while not optimal, maybe now with the next four years we can see Obama doing more, since now he planted some roots.

Yes, he has only been in his “second term” for a month and a half…we don’t consider his first term?

Well actually, I did some factt-checking and it turns out that he technically isn’t even done with his first ter yet, he’d going to inagurated on January 20th. I thought that you of all people would want to correct me on that.

Wait, I didn’t say that he was in his second term, just that he was elected fairly recently… Huh.

And stop trying to emulate Karma,

Except I’m not.

you don’t need to use so much foul language to get your point across.

I said fuck twice, that’s barely anything of note.

I am not an expert, if that is what you mean, but I’m not so stupid to not know what is right for America. What Obummer is doing is not right.

Were… You going to complete that sentece? It just seemed a little too short.

Also, you contradicted yourself when you said that you “aren’t an expert,” but then said “I’m not so stupid to not know what is right for America.”

But anyway, I have a quick question, just what is right for America, then?

Progressive, liberal, is there really a difference? Liberal is liberal. They just like to use a different name that doesn’t sound as bad as the reputation liberal has garnered.

Facist, conservative, is there really a difference? Conservative is conservative. They just like to use a different name that doesn’t sound as bad as the reputation conservative has garnered.

Wait, what were you responding to, again?