Secession of States post Obama re-election page 2

244 posts

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OH, hell…
I hope & “prey” it does go much farther….
sometimes, before something is taken seriously enough to be given the needed attention to be fixed, it has to completely fall apart and be rebuilt from the ground up.

I’m appalled that a mere 25,000 can cause such a serious ruckus at a time when other issues are much more pressing. Good grief.

Instead of a number pulled out of someones ass at some time (long ago?),,,,
why not a percentage of registered voters?

Read this
The GOP has much bigger problems than a shit ass pimple on its ass like this secessionist bullshit. That’s why I say that sometimes things just need a 2 × 4 to hit it up the side of its head in order for decent attention be paid to the problems its having in its “AstroTurf roots” (< < LOL, gawd…I luv that one).

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:


But, seriously now, I don’t see any State govt. getting its shit together enough to actually represent such asinine proposals.

Texas seems to be coming tantalizingly close. 25,000 signatures needed for the White House to consider it and they already have 22,000? This should be interesting, especially if it makes it that far.

Remember, with 25,000 votes the White House has to respond to not consider, anything. So if we got a petition saying that all Jello should be manufactured in the White House to ensure its quality, and got 25,000 people to sign it, they’d have to respond to it.

 
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Trying to defend those 50k signers as much as I can, I think it’s very unfair for them to put the threshold this low. It makes them think they’re going to have any chance of approval which, in all fairness, is 0%. Even if they’d get ten times as much voters for this idea, I’m going to go ahead and say the proposition will be declined as well. With that said, the threshold should be ten times as high. Bob’s example made me laugh, but at the same time showed craziness about the general idea.

 
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Allow me to make an even simpler evaluation of these efforts to “leave” the U.S.

Upon not faring so well in their efforts on the “big issues” like this, there is this typical knee-jerk reaction of loud oration through gnashing of teeth and great beating of the chest…ala similar chimp behavior

This doesn’t at all mean that it is representative of “normal” chimp capacity for sensible behavior

AND, wouldn’t it be a whoooole lot simpler for these malcontents to just leave America rather than believe they can have their state do it? As radically “active” as they are, that option would make much more sense….at least in the area of actually happening.

 
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I kind of hope this happens. Making the world more interesting.

 
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Originally posted by softest_voice:

Not even neo-cons these days, at least not the ones I am used to.
These are the “TEA Party” types; basically an astroturf movement backed by the likes of the Koch brothers, that claim to be fiscal conservatives, but go all social conservative manic as soon as they get half a chance.
There are also lots of instances of complete hypocrisy when it comes to screaming about a nanny state, whilst being a social security recipient.

Basically, it’s a lot of old white people that can’t outright say “BECAUSE HE’S A N*%@ER!!!” so they’ve come up with a load of nonsense with little to no basis in reality.

Now they think they can collect 25,000 signatures and secede.

It’s kinda cute, really.

Citation? Or are you just pulling all of this out of the backwaters of your ideological cesspool?

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by softest_voice:

Not even neo-cons these days, at least not the ones I am used to.
These are the “TEA Party” types; basically an astroturf movement backed by the likes of the Koch brothers, that claim to be fiscal conservatives, but go all social conservative manic as soon as they get half a chance.
There are also lots of instances of complete hypocrisy when it comes to screaming about a nanny state, whilst being a social security recipient.

Basically, it’s a lot of old white people that can’t outright say “BECAUSE HE’S A N*%@ER!!!” so they’ve come up with a load of nonsense with little to no basis in reality.

Now they think they can collect 25,000 signatures and secede.

It’s kinda cute, really.

Citation? Or are you just pulling all of this out of the backwaters of your ideological cesspool?

Well, scoop…here is concurrence w/ what softest_voice is saying. Sure, Pitts is what many would call “liberal”….esp. if they are rabidly faaaaar (neo-con) right “conservatives”. After all, isn’t it pretty much RELAVTIVE to ones own personal ideology?

AND, rather than just insult his point,,,
why don’t YOU pull something out of something and make a decent rebuttal….eh?
It’s usually very easy to sit back and criticize the work of others….
however, it becomes a whoooole different story when one makes effort to do the same or similar work….OR, maybe even have a PLAN for it.
Some will even shirk an attempt in fear that they might have to endure the same kind of shit criticism they give out themselves.

OH, scoop…ya can ask for a “citation” if ya are truly interested in a decent consideration of softest_voice’s OPINION.
BUT, one really doesn’t need such in order to merely state an OPINION.
After all, are most “citations” just links to OPINIONS of other ppl?
Ya know…the very same thing YOU do a lot of….lol

 
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why don’t YOU pull something out of something and make a decent rebuttal….eh?

Why would he bother? The discussion has clearly already been primed to dismiss the concerns of the secessionists as ‘knee-jerk rednecks’. There’s no point responding to liberal ideology with conservative ideology.

It’s usually very easy to sit back and criticize the work of others….

Yes, that’s what everyone here does. It only becomes problematic when the conservatives do it.

@scoop:

So, not saying you necessarily agree with the seceshers, but can you suggest some arguments in their favor? If not, I can.

1) A pluralist democracy (under Rawlsian conditions) only works if the majority are in agreement (and the democrats did not gain a strong majority), and the minority vote is satisfied that their views will be protected (which they clearly aren’t)

2) Therefore a bloc-state secession is worth considering with a 25,000 man petition. Whether their cause is agreed to or not is another story, but 25,000 signatures is nothing to dismiss as easily as serving jello in the white house.

3) The sharp ideological split is nothing new, nor is the fear of vote-corruption on either side (though from what i understand, it’s far less a problem than it’s being made out to be). It will likely continue to occur as the parties become more polarized, and no solution has yet been put down to solve this niggardly problem.

4) As to states becoming individual countries, while this is clearly untenable for most states (except Texas, perhaps), one might recall that the thirteen original colonies started out the same way, divided, and it took much negotiation and hand-holding for the Continental Congress to be established. Once that was done, however, the states moved rapidly towards secession.

5) Unlike the civil war, there is no slavocracy or otherwise inhumane cause being championed by the seceshers, nor is it purely about the economy either. There is, rather, a sharp difference in ideological views, which as I say, needs to be addressed. A petition might do that, in the form of organizing a committee or possibly even constitutional changes, for any steps should and must be taken before taking on the radical step of independence. This was the same problem faced by the thirteen colonies, and later by the Southerners, and it resulted in fruitless debate. What’s to be done?

6) As one concrete pro in the seceshers’ favour, the states are, correct me if i’m wrong, contiguous. This is a major thing. Quebec has been trying to separate for years from canada, but the biggest stop-gap aside from divided population views within Quebec is that it would canada in half.

7) The independence movement in Quebec has also provided a number of shared responsibility clauses. It must for example, be surmised that they would have to take up a share of the country’s national debt, and their inability to pay their share (without joining to already established countries) would again suggest the necessity of thorough debate and the need for other options. Nevertheless, if, as with the buildup to the civil war, those options become untenable, independence should remain an option of last resort. Just because they’re jesus jumpers and bigots (generalizing here) doesn’t mean they can’t be politically rational. Any division between the State and the states would also require a shared economy clause (ie. acceptance into NAFTA) and continued shared currency, and this might bring the issue into the regional level (ie. the OAS). Finally, there would have to be an agreement to allow immigrants to transfer in and out of the states with relative ease compared to the problems along the mexican border.

 
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I don’t think there will be civil war, or a secession. The world just doesn’t work like that anymore. We ca’nt really fight a conventional war against ourselves. Technology is beyond that. The wars are economic, and the bullets are values and principles. There are no longer geographic lines. We rise together, or we fail together. Currently, it isn’t looking prosperous.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:It only becomes problematic when the conservatives do it.

Were you picked on by a Christian, or abused by a conservative or something? I rarely see bias this strong.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Were you picked on by a Christian, or abused by a conservative or something? I rarely see bias this strong.

I think it was meant as sarcasm, MyTie. At least that’s how I read it.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Why would he bother? The discussion has clearly already been primed to dismiss the concerns of the secessionists as ‘knee-jerk rednecks’.

I didn’t really mean to prime it either way; I just thought the news about secession was interesting and was wondering if/when it could actually happen. I really don’t think it will happen, though.

 
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I’m not sure if you’re misreading me or just a dipshit looking for a fight.

 
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AND, rather than just insult his point,,,
why don’t YOU pull something out of something and make a decent rebuttal….eh?
It’s usually very easy to sit back and criticize the work of others….
however, it becomes a whoooole different story when one makes effort to do the same or similar work….OR, maybe even have a PLAN for it.
Some will even shirk an attempt in fear that they might have to endure the same kind of shit criticism they give out themselves.

Ladies and gentlemen, the OP of a post mourning ad-hominem and a lack of civility!

 
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Were you picked on by a Christian, or abused by a conservative or something? I rarely see bias this strong.

Either trolling or someone incapable of deciphering sarcasm…

 
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The ironic thing is that Jant was actually pointing out the slanted treatment that conservatives get in SD (in other words, sticking up for conservatives more or less).


Also, this should pretty much be SD’s new motto:

[Yes, it’s from the Bible, no hate]

22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 
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issendorf- I was wrong for not reading the post in context. Normally I’d render an apology, but Jantonaitis’s demeanor is so confrontational, I don’t even want to go there with him, or as Bob points out, it would likely produce a useless quarrel.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

issendorf- I was wrong for not reading the post in context. Normally I’d render an apology, but Jantonaitis’s demeanor is so confrontational, I don’t even want to go there with him, or as Bob points out, it would likely produce a useless quarrel.

I don’t think apologizing would produce a quarrel. :^) It’s normally a good idea, but a hard thing to do.

 
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You’re right, Bob!

I’m sorry Jan. It was my fault for not reading the context of your post! Have a good day, and I’ll try not to let it happen again.

 
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Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Really sound advice, which we rarely take. It’s so easy to get drawn into an emotional argument, isn’t it?

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Really sound advice, which we rarely take. It’s so easy to get drawn into an emotional argument, isn’t it?

Here here!

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Really sound advice, which we rarely take. It’s so easy to get drawn into an emotional argument, isn’t it?

Likely, the reason we are so easily TEMPTED to indulge in such dark things follow those words of Timothy w/ these:

“26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

 
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Look at this:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

New states added on list:
Alaska, Nebraska, West Virginia, S. Dakota, Wisconsin, Virginia, Rhode Island, Idaho, New Hampshire, Minnesota, New Mexico, and Illinois.

New states that crossed threshold (25,000 signatures):
Florida and Georgia.

States that have crossed:
Texas-86,896
Louisiana-31,236
Florida-26,345
Georgia-25,113

States that are about to cross:
Tennessee and Alabama.

In total 42 states have started petitions to succeed from the United States.

Let me know if I have any info wrong. I want to be accurate.
Here is another website:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/secession-petitions-grow-president-obamas-election-17709379

What scares me is that how many people laugh this subject off as if it was a joke. The problem is that succession happened once and it could very well happen again. It is a very distinct and real possible outcome of this. I think it is starting to get serious now. Does anyone else share my concern? Be Honest.

 
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I haven’t really bothered to look – is it possible for me, a citizen of Wisconsin, to sign Texas’ petition? Because I would love for this to gain traction for the entertainment of watching the back and forth between Washington and Texas.

The problem is that succession happened once and it could very well happen again.

Attempted to happen. Lincoln made sure it didn’t.

It is a very distinct and real possible outcome of this. I think it is starting to get serious now. Does anyone else share my concern? Be Honest.

It’s as distinct and a real possible outcome as is the chance of me winning the Powerball. In theory, it’s possible. That’s about it.

 
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Originally posted by Rubixcube7:

What scares me is that how many people laugh this subject off as if it was a joke.

I don’t think it’s a joke. I think it likely won’t happen, but at the very least its a red flag of growing discontent among people.

 
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Come the fuck on guys…

succession

secession

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by Rubixcube7:

What scares me is that how many people laugh this subject off as if it was a joke.

I don’t think it’s a joke. I think it likely won’t happen, but at the very least its a red flag of growing discontent among people.

Nah….this is the longstanding sign of malcontents at the far right (neo-cons….but, is their “thinking” really all that new?).

AND, I’m not really all that sure that this LEVEL of stupidity is growing.
I think it is actually dying off because the majority of ppl who think this way are OLD & DYING OFF, TOO.

Does anyone have any kind at all of data showing who originated the petitions and who has been signing them? THAT is the most telling about how “red” the flag is. It might in actually be little more than the WHITE flag of a last hurrah for an era whose time is long past.