Secession of States post Obama re-election page 4

244 posts

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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

Hell,,,,shitcan the tin-foil hat.

Roll out the aluminum body armor.

LOL

Jaume, ya’d think that as long as he’s been alive and all he “knows because of it” (he so often reminds us), that he’d know that he has “seen” all of this shit before.

At least I have.
It certainly isn’t anything new.
The only thing making it different is the Internet.

If you don’t have anything to add, shut the hell up.

Of course YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion on my opinion of YOUR opinion….
HEY, it appears we are having a discussion.
BUT, opinions vary on things like this.

SO, jake-o….rather than rebut my obvious points,,,ya just cop out and tell me to shut up?
Janto must be blind to not be able to see//understand why I give damn precious little credence to your “apology” here on the forum.

Haven’t ya stated soooo very often how your age affords ya a “paticular wisdom” on issues….
mostly because ya’ve seen many things in real time rather than read about them “in books” as the younguns have? I’ve told ya that I agree there is a certain amount of truth in this. But, I’ve also stated that merely “being there” doesn’t equal KNOWING ALL about what was happening….which can very well be “in those books”.

I absolutely recall many flaps from “smoking-hot-under-the-collar” malcontents during my 66 years: the 1964 Civil Rights Act, OSHA, Affirmative Action, etc. This smoke of your gets even less important if one views the “fire” via a “numbers-view” that Juame showed….mostly because of the very real (liklihood?) possibility that all of the votes for any particular votes of a state have come from the same ppl NATION WIDE.

I’m NOT goint to do the math.
BUT, if we go to the max and say all of those signing the online petitions are from the same ppl nation wide….that .3640201% would be a whole lot smaller,,,wouldn’t it? “Smoke” from a lit match held by a “blind” group of kooks serching for the dark for a place to “dig in” rather than move forward in life where (as Ninja points out) these ppl can actually have a much more profound effect for their viewpoints rather than simply being discounted as nutjobs….which is beining to be increasingly very likely.

jake-o, this is now the Internet Age.
All sorts of innane crap comes from it.
Perhaps ya’d fair much better if ya act upon something YOU & I heard long ago: Believe only half of what ya see and nothing of what ya hear. Ben Franklin

But, anyway….I thank ya for lending a lot of credibility to my OPINON that your apology likely has little merit because of the many “shortcomings” that many here have repeatedly pointed out. OH, for Janto & issendorf….I have to point out that I’m SPEAKING ONLY OF WHAT YA’RE DOING ON THIS FORUM. A disclaimer they seem to insist be made….lol

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Tenco, I’m not saying these states are going to secede. What I am saying is there is smoke. People still don’t seem to be happy with Obama’s reelection. Enough people to exert concern. I have said I think we are going to see violence. The potential is there. Maybe this is how people are expressing their anger. I can’t predict the outcome of this, only watch it along with the rest of you. But I’m not going to extrapolate theories, just say we should beware.

A little less than half the country is not happy with Obama’s re-election, because they all wanted the other candidate to win. I’ve forgotten his name already. But they’re not all up in arms, throwing their toys out of their pram and demanding secession. Just a very tiny percentage of them. Now it’s all very easy to make idle threats when you haven’t got the faintest chance of carrying them out. I wonder what would happen if they really had a chance to secede. I daresay the people of these rebelious states would start to reflect on all the benefits of belonging to the union.

I can’t seem to find any info about the demographics of these signatories. Maybe there is nothing to find. Does anyone know if they represent nothing more scary than outraged old farts who can see their dreams of America as it never was slipping away, or does it go deeper than that. If people from a wide range of the community are signing these petitions, then perhaps it is a wake-up call to the government that their policies are failing too many people.

 
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Beauval,

Half the country wanted Obama eliminated from the political scene and would have voted for the neighbors pet to be rid of him.

Our country was formed by these old farts you talk about. We old farts waged a war against a king who smothered our people with his despotism. The American people had had enough and the anger they felt gave them the reason for separating themselves from the source of this anger.

I would never dismiss the power of the people as just being angry about an election. I believe the anger goes much deeper and has been broiling for a long time.

 
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We also have an e-petition system in the UK. There are over 7000 available for signature at the moment. If one gets over 100,000 signatures it can become the subject of a debate in the House of Commons. Some of these petitions represent serious issues, many others are totally fatuous, or have been put forward by local vested interest groups.

I am trying to establish what category the secession petition in the US falls into, which would give a good indication of the size of the problem it represents. If it turns out to be the usual suspects having a whinge, then I would see that as a lot less serious than a wide cross section of the community all expressing deep dissatisfaction at the federal government. All I have seen so far is numbers, not what those numbers actually represent.

 
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Jhco provided a link to the signiture system itself, which has proven quite enlightening.

There is one active poll to 'have President Obama Do The Hokey Pokey' with 162 signatures. Another with 3,278 signatures calls for 'have the President to attend a Fark.com party. If scheduling does not permit, at least have a beer with Drew Curtis'.

Further down are the secession ones. They include:

Georgia, 28,011
South Carolina, 20,514
Tennessee, 27,083
Florida, 29,698


Texas, 99,735

So, by far, Teaxas is the only one really taking it seriously. On the flipside of course, had R-money won, we would be seeing the same thing from the blue states. As to whether they're all Texans or not, the answer is yes. I tried to post a signature, but it won't let me.
 
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actually, doing the math, in Texas there’s only a signature from 100/26000=0.385% of the population, while in Tennesse there’s one from 27/6500=0.415% of the population. in South Carolina it’s 20.5/4700=0.436%.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

Does anyone know if they represent nothing more scary than outraged old farts who can see their dreams of America as it never was slipping away..

LOL. That’s epic though. I chuckled.

Originally posted by ColtArmy:

Our country was formed by these old farts you talk about. We old farts waged a war against a king who smothered our people with his despotism. The American people had had enough and the anger they felt gave them the reason for separating themselves from the source of this anger.

….and the alt comes out to play.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:

25,000 signatures is hardly representative of an entire state’s desires. The majority of people in those states do not want to secede. Trust me, I come from a non-American region wanting independence, and an online petition is not how it’s done.

It is hardly economically advantageous to these states. Especially if they are all intending to secede as individual countries, as these petitions have it, instead of one federation.

Also, most people signing these petitions can be assumed to be conservatives angry about the democratic outcome of the election. Why is it that these conservatives are so patriotic until they disagree with the democracy? They will have not much military defense, either.

Such a democracy that we have a system called the electoral college that could potentially vote against the entire state’s preferred vote.

 
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Originally posted by Retry:

Such a democracy that we have a system called the electoral college that could potentially vote against the entire state’s preferred vote.

Yup. This is why many of us (me included) would love to see the EC gone. Give citizens the right to choose directly.

 
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Just a bunch of angry old people. They will die off eventually. If Texas does leave the country, please leave us at Austin alone. We don’t want anything to do with the people out there —>

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by Retry:

Such a democracy that we have a system called the electoral college that could potentially vote against the entire state’s preferred vote.

Yup. This is why many of us (me included) would love to see the EC gone. Give citizens the right to choose directly.

I don’t think faithless electors’ votes would be respected in that case. But it sure would be an interesting situation.

 
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Originally posted by slasher:

Just a bunch of angry old people. They will die off eventually. If Texas does leave the country, please leave us at Austin alone. We don’t want anything to do with the people out there —>

If Texas goes, so will Austin. Does that mean you’d need a passport to access GDC?

 
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Originally posted by slasher:

Just a bunch of angry old people. They will die off eventually. If Texas does leave the country, please leave us at Austin alone. We don’t want anything to do with the people out there —>

As The New Yorker says, Texas will become a blue state in only a few elections. And oh will I enjoy that.

Actual advice for the GOP (not being sarcastic here): have a Latino, an African American and/or a woman as a candidate in 2016 and/or 2020, this is your last chance at getting minorities’ votes.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:
Originally posted by slasher:

Just a bunch of angry old people. They will die off eventually. If Texas does leave the country, please leave us at Austin alone. We don’t want anything to do with the people out there —>

As The New Yorker says, Texas will become a blue state in only a few elections. And oh will I enjoy that.

Actual advice for the GOP (not being sarcastic here): have a Latino, an African American and/or a woman as a candidate in 2016 and/or 2020, this is your last chance at getting minorities’ votes.


Leonard Pitts is saying much the same.

“In the first place, any sudden GOP outreach to those it spurned while courting angry older white men must unavoidably appear conniving, self-conscious and self-serving. And once you get past the problem of appearances, there is the simple question of what it will take to undo the damage the party has inflicted upon itself with those groups.”

“How long will it be before gay men and lesbians are willing to forgive and forget that the party has routinely demeaned their relationships and impugned their moral fitness?”

“How long will it take before Hispanics are willing to let bygones be bygones with a party that spoke of “self-deportation” and cheered the notion of a border fence to electrocute undocumented Mexican workers?”

“And how much time must go by before African-Americans are willing to look past the GOP’s unrelenting and deeply personal disrespect toward the nation’s first African-American president, its insistence on treating him as some foreign Other who, in John Sununu’s memorably tawdry phrase, must “learn how to be an American.””

“All that said, the biggest question here is not whether the GOP can transform itself, but whether it can even try. At this point, the Republicans are less a traditional political party than what disenchanted former GOP staffer Mike Lofgren has called an “apocalyptic cult.””

It was said after Obama was elected 4 years ago: The GOP has a real problem on its hands.
Obviously, they thought the mid-term election giving them the House was some sign that the wackoes were on to something…..so let’s have more of it. So, thus went the 2012 Presidential campaign.

What the GOP didn’t “get” is that the average, “low information” American was unsure of & feared for their future because of the DEREGULATED MESS the politicians had made of our economy. Per usual, the GOP “cashed in” on this fear and amped up the “boogeyman effect” and continued to feed this bullshit to the public….the voters.

While most American voters really haven’t much of a clue about politics….
they know bullshit when they see//hear//smell it.

NOW….today,,,,the GOP has moved so far to the right that these “neo-cons” are dangling on the edge of a cliff. They are about to become severed from the moderates and the real voting base.

Just like in the stock market….
there will be a “correction” made…
VERY SOON.

It’s time for the GOP to stand up to the asshole “talking head” pundits who think they are speaking for the GOP Party….when all they are doing is whoring out to the extremists and whipping them into a frenzy just so they can be rich pseudo-cheerleaders of the loony-farm team.

The GOP is in sore need of real conservative ppl to speak on serious issues.
We are in serious times….
we need serious ppl to be at the wheels of govt.

 
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Half the country wanted Obama eliminated from the political scene and would have voted for the neighbors pet to be rid of him.

Less than half of the voters preferred someone above Obama (instead of wanting him gone entirely and voting for the neighbour’s pet). That’s three points of exaggeration:

1. Not every single individual is allowed to vote, and not every single individual allowed to vote did actually vote. You do not know what they would have voted.
2. Not half of the voters wanted to vote for someone else, but less than half, otherwise it would be a tie.
3. It’s not necessarily true that those who didn’t vote for Obama hated his guts. Some might have preferred another candidate, but wouldn’t necessarily oppose Obama. Others couldn’t care less, but voted for their own label. Even others think he might not be a very good candidate, but they wouldn’t vote for some random idiot (yes, I know you were exaggerating about the pet, but it implies a random idiot would do better, which is obviously false).

This leaves very little people remaining that actually fit your description, which is shown in the petitions getting very little votes. If what Jhco and you are constantly implying is true, Americans would have already picked up arms to remove the president from the White House.

 
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Patriotism is not unquestionable loyalty to a country or government… True Patriotism is standing up against your government when you believe it is the right thing to do (forgot the author)

This move for seccession is mainly a symbolic one, geared mainly to gain enough response to warrant an official response from the powers that be. With that being said we need to remember that the original declaration of independence was a symbolic gesture to the king after the events of continous taxation, no right to due process, standing armies in time of peace, illegal siezure of land and property, and various other transgressions peaking with the battles of concorde and lexington where british soldiers marched on the towns to search and illegally sieze weapons of the towns. An armed group of 70 militia men stood in front of the town and was (according to some) fired upon by the british force of 3 times the size

Our own declaration of indepence stated,
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

“…Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government…”
That document had 56 signatures out of a potential of several million (estimate census for the colonies is sketchy at best). And now people wish to claim that 100,000+ and growing does not speak for the majority or even a minority… That is irrelavant the point is this many people wish to be heard.

People have forgotten that this country was founded on the principles of rebellion… rebellion against taxes, rebellion against government, rebellion against an evergrowing law book.

Thomas Jefferson (one of the nations founding fathers, 3rd president, signer and author of the declaration of indepence) said "If we want freedom, there should be an armed rebellion every 20 years. What country can preserve its LIBERTY if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its PEOPLE possess the spirit of resistance. Let them take up arms, what signify a few lives lost in a century or 2. The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots, tyrants, and traitors. It is its natural manure

We as a nation are long since overdue. People bring up the revolutionary and civil wars and say that not enough people are for secession. Well the revolutionary war only 45% of the people were reportedly patriot once the term came up. Civil war only 35-40% were for secession. However once the governments stood up to say no… More joined the cause to defend there right and there home. Those wars started because of the governments refusal to allow it to happen. Which sad to say is what needs to happen to ensure freedom and liberty are upheld.

That is also why we also have the second amendment not for hunting or sport. But to stand up against the government should it ever step out of line again. Thomas Jefferson said “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government” And while the argument now among us for gun control and terms that they are evil well George Washington once said “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”

Yes many people are right, the white house is most likely going to reply with no. Which in turn will have a negative impact allowing the movement to gain more traction and strength among the populace Well why can’t we peacefully leave people will ask. People will protest and the state will push back and eventually there will be a moment thats sets the spark that will explode into a revolution history repeats itself… again. Once this happens “we must all hang together, for assuredly we will all hang seperately” (Benjamin Franklin)

 
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can an admin pm me as to why my previous post was removed… sry for the dble post and the question

 
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Yes many people are right, the white house is most likely going to reply with no. Which in turn will have a negative impact allowing the movement to gain more traction and strength among the populace Well why can’t we peacefully leave people will ask. People will protest and the state will push back and eventually there will be a moment thats sets the spark that will explode into a revolution history repeats itself… again.

Unless, of course, the other three hundred million people in the USA decide that this is a really stupid idea, and it sinks without trace in a couple of weeks.

 
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And now people wish to claim that 100,000+ and growing does not speak for the majority or even a minority… That is irrelavant the point is this many people wish to be heard.

Their voices were heard in the election. To now set up a petition and think that their 100k against a far larger population should mean the entire state secedes is rather silly, don’t you think? If all they wanted was “to be heard”, why use a petition like this? It’s never going to be accepted.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

Yes many people are right, the white house is most likely going to reply with no. Which in turn will have a negative impact allowing the movement to gain more traction and strength among the populace Well why can’t we peacefully leave people will ask. People will protest and the state will push back and eventually there will be a moment thats sets the spark that will explode into a revolution history repeats itself… again.

Unless, of course, the other three hundred million people in the USA decide that this is a really stupid idea, and it sinks without trace in a couple of weeks.

Very true… I forgot to add that part into the post, I do apologize. The people as a whole are content with allowing the government to take whatever it wishes. There is no spirit of resistance in anyone anymore. Most people do not even question why, how, or what. Just as an example the next biggest petition on the white house website is that of federally legalized marijuana at over 50,000 signatures (and apparently this is not the first time its been put forward to be signed)… Thats the next biggest issue concerning the people of this country… You know maybe they should legalize it so then our most intelligent discussion will be if the snossberries taste like snossberries, and all of this will be for nothing.

Although there still may be hope… Now that all 50 states have officially started there own petitions texas still gaining something around 15,000 more signatures by itself in a day… (I haven’t confirmed this myself I was only told it by a coworker), but if you include all the petitions for secession into one then there are now over 1 million signatures… And we still have almost a full month to go before the petitions are closed and the white house responds… With the no that we all expect.

Now my question is as an observer to all of this… How far will it go before the majority stand up and say enough is enough???

 
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Originally posted by MichealS15:

Patriotism is not unquestionable loyalty to a country or government… True Patriotism is standing up against your government when you believe it is the right thing to do (forgot the author)

This move for seccession is mainly a symbolic one, geared mainly to gain enough response to warrant an official response from the powers that be. With that being said we need to remember that the original declaration of independence was a symbolic gesture to the king after the events of continous taxation, no right to due process, standing armies in time of peace, illegal siezure of land and property, and various other transgressions peaking with the battles of concorde and lexington where british soldiers marched on the towns to search and illegally sieze weapons of the towns. An armed group of 70 militia men stood in front of the town and was (according to some) fired upon by the british force of 3 times the size

Our own declaration of indepence stated,
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

“…Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government…”
That document had 56 signatures out of a potential of several million (estimate census for the colonies is sketchy at best). And now people wish to claim that 100,000+ and growing does not speak for the majority or even a minority… That is irrelavant the point is this many people wish to be heard.

People have forgotten that this country was founded on the principles of rebellion… rebellion against taxes, rebellion against government, rebellion against an evergrowing law book.

Thomas Jefferson (one of the nations founding fathers, 3rd president, signer and author of the declaration of indepence) said "If we want freedom, there should be an armed rebellion every 20 years. What country can preserve its LIBERTY if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its PEOPLE possess the spirit of resistance. Let them take up arms, what signify a few lives lost in a century or 2. The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots, tyrants, and traitors. It is its natural manure

We as a nation are long since overdue. People bring up the revolutionary and civil wars and say that not enough people are for secession. Well the revolutionary war only 45% of the people were reportedly patriot once the term came up. Civil war only 35-40% were for secession. However once the governments stood up to say no… More joined the cause to defend there right and there home. Those wars started because of the governments refusal to allow it to happen. Which sad to say is what needs to happen to ensure freedom and liberty are upheld.

That is also why we also have the second amendment not for hunting or sport. But to stand up against the government should it ever step out of line again. Thomas Jefferson said “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government” And while the argument now among us for gun control and terms that they are evil well George Washington once said “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good”

Yes many people are right, the white house is most likely going to reply with no. Which in turn will have a negative impact allowing the movement to gain more traction and strength among the populace Well why can’t we peacefully leave people will ask. People will protest and the state will push back and eventually there will be a moment thats sets the spark that will explode into a revolution history repeats itself… again. Once this happens “we must all hang together, for assuredly we will all hang seperately” (Benjamin Franklin)

Let me bump that. It is very well written and chock full of facts the lefties would rather not have presented.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

And now people wish to claim that 100,000+ and growing does not speak for the majority or even a minority… That is irrelavant the point is this many people wish to be heard.

Their voices were heard in the election. To now set up a petition and think that their 100k against a far larger population should mean the entire state secedes is rather silly, don’t you think? If all they wanted was “to be heard”, why use a petition like this? It’s never going to be accepted.

It’s pangs of anger Dark. You are looking from the outside in and don’t understand the people as well as you think you do. This could. as Beauval states sink without a trace, or it could flame up. If it indeed flames up all hell will break loose. I’m not excited by that prospect, but maybe we need that to as our founding fathers said. reclaim our country. As many signatures that are showing up, it doesn’t matter what the liberals wish. Last I heard the country is 47%/47% with 6% floating around. Your majority isn’t as big as you think it is and this could flare up very easily.

Here is something for thought. Are we really being represented in Washington anymore? When the people said they didn’t want Obama’s healthcare, did our representatives listen? Have they listened to anything important in the last few decades? Not really.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

It’s pangs of anger Dark. You are looking from the outside in and don’t understand the people as well as you think you do.

But you do?

This could. as Beauval states sink without a trace, or it could flame up. If it indeed flames up all hell will break loose. I’m not excited by that prospect, but maybe we need that to as our founding fathers said. reclaim our country.</blocqkuote>

So I take it you signed the signature. Repeatedly.

As many signatures that are showing up, it doesn’t matter what the liberals wish. Last I heard the country is 47%/47% with 6% floating around. Your majority isn’t as big as you think it is and this could flare up very easily.

What majory? The majority of people didn’t choose Obama, or the “majority” who want to secede because they were wrong?

Here is something for thought. Are we really being represented in Washington anymore?

Wait, which “We” are you using now, I’ve gotten mixed up.

When the people said they didn’t want Obama’s healthcare, did they listen?

Oh so now you don’t want to say Obamacare.

Have they listened to anything important in the last few decades? Not really.

So I’m guessing this all started right after the god-den years of the Reagan administration?

 
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I never said I understood them completely, but even you should have an idea of the ways of your own country and it’s past. If I am not mistaken, you have a working knowledge of our constitution. Read it and see what a patriot used to be.

We, the American people, but I guess some of them are a bit short of wanting a free America. And Tenco, you know as well as I do he didn’t win by that much in the popular vote. Our problems with socialism started with FDR during the last depression.

 
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You are looking from the outside in and don’t understand the people as well as you think you do.

I’m observing a horde of angry people that their vote wasn’t the majority posting up some ridiculous petition and hoping that their minority is going to get them anywhere. I acknowledge they have different views from Obama, but I don’t acknowledge that their only options are Romney or forming a separate country.