Secession of States post Obama re-election page 6

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Originally posted by MyTie:

Texas was already its own nation at one point.

And just how long ago was that, again?

 
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Texas has the Texas National Guard http://www.txmf.us/ It has nuclear missile launch facilities. Further, the equipment is owned by the Texas National Guard, which would be under the govener’s command upon secession, or the new President of Texas. I’m sure there would be talks about military equipment, and who owned what, but Texas wouldn’t be a hostile nation to the US. Not by a long shot. Most people in Texas have relatives in the rest of the country. They wouldn’t want to go to war with their families.

Explain why Texas education would dwindle. They have some of the premier universities in the world, with accredited educators and programs.

As for oil, without having to abide by the treaties signed by the US, and EPA regulations, Texas could drill to its heart’s content, and with some of the larger tracts of oil reserves in the United States (obvious exception Alaska), Texas would become a world contender on the oil markets. I would say the very things causing the oil recession could have been prevented had the EPA gotten out of the way.

Originally posted by softest_voice:I mean…you don’t really have a point. You strung some words together, threw in a “herpderpChina”…and what?

Don’t lower yourself. It doesn’t make me look bad, and it doesn’t help you make any points.

 
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It seems that this is being forgotten with the aguments made here: If this actually did happen (which it wont) people would be pissed about it, and unhappy people leads to civil unrest, which would lead to at worst protests, at best a lot of people leaving, and at impossibly worst civil war.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:

It seems that this is being forgotten with the aguments made here: If this actually did happen (which it wont) people would be pissed about it, and unhappy people leads to civil unrest, which would lead to at worst protests, at best a lot of people leaving, and at impossibly worst civil war.

Agree with all that, but it’s not like Texas would collapse without the assistance of the Federal Government. That’s silly.

 
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Hey! Stilt’s back! and ohmylanta! awesome!

Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by MyTie:

Texas was already its own nation at one point.

And just how long ago was that, again?

Exactly. Texas became part of the US, when? 1840’s? I’d say they’ve got a lot to learn about being their own country again.

As for Texas’s imminent collapse in the event that they got away with it, I think you’re underestimating just how fucking insane a secession would look to the rest of the world. The leading superpower coming apart at the seams? Here’s the top three reactions:

1) Allah Akhbar!
2) OMG! We’re totally fucked!
3) The chickens are coming home to roost!

It’s the third one in particular that would be the problem. Mexico would see it as a perfect opportunity to revenge themselves, and i bet without the US giving a shit, they’d acquit themselves pretty well, especially if the other S.A states were getting a piece of the action. When Quebec was going to separate from canada, the US had all kinds of plans to invade + fuck them up, even though there was no certainty they were going to be a crazy state (apart from being french, I mean). They just looked, as beauval pointed out, uncertain, and nobody wants uncertainty that close to the border.

 
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Again, some of you guys fail to realise that the United States has heaps of military bases in other countries. All the ones currently in Texas will still be in American operation, unless Texas forbids it by law, in which case the diplomatic relations between the two will worsen considerably.

Texas would not want its relations with the United States to be awful. Oh wait, it’s Texas, they probably wouldn’t care in the short term, and then come crying back once they’ve been threatened or nuked.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I’m not arguing for secession, but your arguments about why it would hurt Texas don’t hold water. Everything Texas needs to survive as a nation, it has, and then some, which it has already proven it can do.

This one alone is not only factual but a thing of utter importance and would hurt Texas real bad:

Originally posted by softest_voice:
No confirmed trade agreements or policy

1. It can be expected that any trade agreements that Texas makes when starting out will be a lot less beneficial than the ones the US has currently. Texas lacks both the economic and political power the US had when making those deals(the remaining US itself will face a harder bargain when it comes to making new deals because of the loss of Texas). Even worse it starts out desperate for basic trade deals, because it needs them to keep its economy running. The necessary trading partners themselves will not be nearly so desperate.

2. Another important factor will be trade agreements between Texas and the remaining US. Many things produced in Texas are sold US wide. Factually some of the biggest industries in Texas are resource/agriculture/manufacturer based.
Losing business with the rest of the US would be death to many of the business in those sectors. Many of the items produced can´t be sold overseas at the same profit as to the US (even with the current trade agreements in place that the US has). Especially if you drop the sizable Quantity that Texas is producing in those sectors onto the international market. This again puts Texas in hard position.
The remaining US will certainly want good trade relations with Texas, since it has a lot to offer that the US is used to having. But again the remaining US can get what Texas has to offer from other sources. For example the idea that was offered in this thread that US will have to import its Oil from Texas. Thats simply not true. It will have to import more Oil but it can choose the source quite freely from whats offered on the international market. Unlikely that the US will buy Oil from Texas even to the international market price since its used to paying less. So again a much more desperate Texas than US.
Even if good trading relations can be established that are not too one sided in favor of the US or the other foreign Powers, the Texas economy is gonna hurt.

 
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Alright stop for a second and read a full post before you comment… Yes fort hood was brought up but read the line before it where I had said in a remark to another post saying that they can take all personel and equipment but they have to leave the bases and facilities alone… By disregarding that lil tid bit of info you basically ruin the entire meaning of what I was trying to say. Which ironically was a joke post for most of that but minor details moving on…

I am not disagreeing with anyone that trade would not be affected by a secession… I know damn well it would be affected, possibly for as much as 10 years after the transition. However if we look back on history (yes I know I only have 2 points to choose from and both were well over 100 years ago) But during the revoltionary war and the civil war trade flourished… Hell the french and the spanish joined in the revolutionary for exclusive rights to the fur and spice trades of the time… Now what does Texas have that is currently illegal for them to produce more of… I will give you a direct quote and 10 points go to whoever can tell me who said it first… “We can not drill our way out of this problem” Did you know that there are as many as 20 sites proposed for offshore drilling that under current us laws are not gonna happen… There are literally thousands of large scale drilling sites proposed within the state of texas itself that have been denied… And if I remember this correctly, Texas has untapped oil reserves larger than the entire middle east combined. You couple that with the fact that if you cut out texas from the rest of the US as it stands right now. It is in fact the 15th largest independent economy in the world it sits between china and india (google it I will wait).

Now that you are back if you think the state only produces oil then you are mistaken… Just to name a few the state also produces salt, sulfur, gypsum, gold, silver, coal, natural gas, and lumber just to name a few…. And lets not even go back into the manufacturing again

Now lets move away from the fact for a second and go into the philosophical side… What do you think would happen if there was no epa or us federal government to tell a new nation no you can not drill that there to bring down the cost for your own citizens???

And again the budget in the state and the books are black… They have a surplus of funds with money to spend, The education system may not be at the top of the list but it is still far above the 8th grade level and on top of that the tier one college schools within the state (Texas A&M University for example)

Again there is a low unemployment rate of about 6% vs over 8% for the rest of the country

Onto another issue I read in here somewhere….
The original plan for the US at its founding was that the states took care of all there own laws, taxation, infrastructure, and programs. It worked in theory that every state was in essence its own small country coming together to make up the overall country as a whole… THE UNITED STATES. However over time starting around the late 1870’s or so the federal government began taking more and more power. The people and the states disagreed with this practice which lead to the only known mass secession in our history and our civil war. The war was not fought over slavery as some would have us believe it was in essence a fight over a states right and the power of a large federal government and telling the states this is what you are going to do “END SLAVERY.” Now don’t misconstrue this slavery had to be stopped then same as it does now but thats a whole nother discussion.

Now the same movement is beginning again and that is why I continously say that history is repeating itself again. Astute readers of history will tell you that this has happened dozens of times across the ages in some way shape or form, and I personally find it fascinating.

There were some other things I wanted to comment on from what I read but I am doing this post very late and I am having trouble thinking straight

 
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It was the wee small hours for me when I last posted, so I’ll elaborate. When I said that all those big juicy companies in Texas would be heading for the hills, I didn’t mean elsewhere in the USA. They would look at Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and think that they’re daft enough to do it too. California? Daft enough and big enough. How about New York? No, better not, murmurs of discontent coming from there as well. So they would look at Canada, Mexico, Europe, Japan, anywhere but the USA. They don’t like uncertainty.

Other countries would be clamouring to get them, and offering some very attractive tax, land and trade union deals to get them. It’s how Britain landed Nissan’s European plant, by offering them the most advantageous deal. Bagging a company like Lockheed would create a lot of jobs, but not in America.

And all that uncertainty about the future could create a domino effect on the entire US economy. We could see multi-nationals based in other US states beginning to look for more stable conditions overseas. I’m no economist, but I understand how business works and how it thinks. As we saw when the American mortgage lenders fell out of bed, panic sets in very quickly. Economic planners in the USA would be very aware of the possibilities; the more I think about this, the more I cannot see any circumstances in which secession would be allowed to happen.

BTW Micheal, you might like to check your dates.

 
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Texas can’t survive on its own.

Back when Texas was fighting mexico, they got their “independence” by having a treaty signed at gunpoint. Immediately afterwards, they begged america to become a state.

Texas is a big baby.

Also Texas cant function on its own because you cant eat oil.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
3) The chickens are coming home to roost!

And this is kind of my thoughts. If the US can’t pull itself together, and make responsible financial decisions, it will fall apart. It a matter of when, not if.

Originally posted by sCROWt:Also Texas cant function on its own because you cant eat oil.
Dude, you just made a silly economic statement in the Obamacare thread, now here too? Do I need to explain to you how trade works? Do I need to explain that Texas also has the largest cattle industry in the US? Do I need to explain this stuff to you? Really?

 
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Too much red meat is bad for you. ;)

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Do I need to explain to you how trade works?

Do I need to explain to you how not being serious works?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
3) The chickens are coming home to roost!

And this is kind of my thoughts. If the US can’t pull itself together, and make responsible financial decisions, it will fall apart. It a matter of when, not if.

Originally posted by sCROWt:Also Texas cant function on its own because you cant eat oil.

Dude, you just made a silly economic statement in the Obamacare thread, now here too? Do I need to explain to you how trade works? Do I need to explain that Texas also has the largest cattle industry in the US? Do I need to explain this stuff to you? Really?

Because if Texas leaves America, America would be willing to trade with them.

Of course, Americans would call texans traitors, which sounds kind of like trader.

Also Texans would never do business with mexico because Mexico hates texas.

 
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I’m sure if Texas manage to secede; we’d liberate them in a matter of weeks.

:V

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
3) The chickens are coming home to roost!

And this is kind of my thoughts. If the US can’t pull itself together, and make responsible financial decisions, it will fall apart. It a matter of when, not if.

Originally posted by sCROWt:Also Texas cant function on its own because you cant eat oil.

Dude, you just made a silly economic statement in the Obamacare thread, now here too? Do I need to explain to you how trade works? Do I need to explain that Texas also has the largest cattle industry in the US? Do I need to explain this stuff to you? Really?


Fukdat. The FDA can’t inspect inspect beef worth a shit (lol…cow shit contamination of beef product). Do ya think Texas would be any better at it? Being worse would likely (who wants to die eating bad meat from a FORIEGN country?

Speaking of foriegn countries “United States
The U.S., during the course of an average year, will have a calf crop of 39,086 TH. The U.S. is also the world’s largest cattle importer, importing an average of 2,145 TH per year.”

AND, MyTie….ya really ought to think through some of this shit ya toss out as being representative of the “BIG PICTURE”. Your Texas cattle won’t end up on any American’s plate if these states don’t slaughter & pack that meat. A lot of my “dealings” are w/ ppl in this industry….mostly via trucking of the products.

The big word here is: C O N S O L I D A T I O N
consolidation of effort, economy, production, labor, etc.

HEY, I’ve just described the whole American corporation conglomerate model.
Yeah…sure, American industry captains are gonna allow secession of a few idiot states to fuck w/ their ability to make money….sure. 0¿~

 
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The Big Picture…….LOL! Karma, you do know, according to the Constitution, the federal government is only supposed to have input on interstate commerce and not be telling states what they can and can’t do, right? That is the big picture you are missing. Oh wait, you don’t really like the constitution…it smacks of freedoms.

 
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Karma, how much input on the decisions of somewhat backwards politicians and general citizens, do you suppose big business has? At the moment, employment is hardly a big stick to bash the individual with, due to it being so thin on the ground.

 
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Loving this piece from the BBC. The BBC: insightful and informative as per usual.

“In the context of the US population of 312 million, however, the numbers involved are minuscule.

“Some 700,000 people in total are estimated to have signed so far – around 0.2% of all Americans. Even Texas’s 118,000 signatures – the most of any state – represent less than 0.5% of its inhabitants.

“These tiny figures actually set Americans apart from their counterparts in other major Western countries.

“Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec are all governed by parties seeking a referendum on independence.”

Hmm, does Texas have a governing political party that is seeking independence…? No. Enough said. Barely anyone wants independence anyway.

 
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The BBC: insightful and informative as per usual.

The BBC: restating common knowledge and calling it news.

 
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Eh, I’m not sure why the petitions ever became news if this is common knowledge. Your average petition is not newsworthy. But these became news because some people are delusional enough to believe such petitions can make them independent. Maybe next time, people such as jhco and other secessionists-when-convenient, ought to read the Constitution’s regard on secessionism.

 
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Possibly they are common knowledge precisely because they became news.

 
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Why wouldn’t this extensively nation-wide effort by zealous dissidents just have to be newsworthy of the politically volatile U.S.? We should keep in mind the influence the U.S. has on the world stage. At the very least, the very lunacy of it all is newsworthy in-&-of-itself.

Remember:
Dog bites man: NOT newsworthy.
Many bites dog’s ear off, fries it up, and eats it: GREAT NEWS.
Sells lots of papers, etc.
Usually the story just has: Man bites dog.
But, so much of what is going on in America is akin to the ear eating scenario.

It is the political right that is pegging the Zany meter at this time….the Tea Party, the obstructionist GOP in Congress, etc. The entirity of America’s socio-economic “woes” has to be extremely newsworthy both in & OUT of her boundaries.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:

Eh, I’m not sure why the petitions ever became news if this is common knowledge. Your average petition is not newsworthy. But these became news because some people are delusional enough to believe such petitions can make them independent. Maybe next time, people such as jhco and other secessionists-when-convenient, ought to read the Constitution’s regard on secessionism.

Not the petitions – the guy writing an entire article why states won’t secede. Everyone knows it won’t happen. Mr. Kelly must have had a pressing deadline and couldn’t think of anything else to do.

 
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All of the disappointment in the recent elections have caused this feeling of helplessness in about half the American people. I told you guys I heard the wealthy were moving their money out of the country and companies were closing down or moving and this link gives but one statement about it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/rich-gain-as-companies-seek-to-beat-obama-tax-increases.html