Secession of States post Obama re-election page 8

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jhco, stop and think.

If the United States right now was communist or socialist…

Would there be people with significantly higher wages than others in the first place?

No.

 
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Great. So Gay Marriage was locked. That was a long standing thread too. Must have been because of the flame war going on.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:

The mistake jhco makes is to equate the United States’ capitalism with communism. The United States has no communist political spectrum; neither is Wall Street communist—Wall Street would not exist under a communist state. The fact that corporatocracy, big companies, Wall Street, etc. exist is proof of the United States neither being socialist nor communist.

We have corporations and big companies right now. Seems they are making a mad rush for the border. And the wealth Obama wants to tax? It’s heading out of the country as we speak, just as I told you it would. Wall Street? I can’t even begin to describe them.

 
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Originally posted by JaumeBG:

jhco, stop and think.

If the United States right now was communist or socialist…

Would there be people with significantly higher wages than others in the first place?

No.

Yes. You always have an elite. There wouldn’t be as many wealthy, but there would be a click of them.

 
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We have corporations and big companies right now.

Yes, and they are multinationals, non-existent in communist countries. The Soviet Union did not have multinationals. The only corporations were state-owned. Are all corporations state-owned in the United States? No. Therefore, the United States is not communist.

Yes. You always have an elite.

There are elites, yes, but they are all friends or family of the government in communist countries such as currently North Korea. All the elite know him, and they aren’t that elite either, if they say something against their leader they are sent to concentration camps. Does that happen in the United States, say something against Obama or his family and you go to concentration camps? No. The United States has liberty and capitalism.

In communist countries education is free. Hmm, is Harvard free?

In communist countries all universities are state-owned. Hmm, is Harvard state-owned?

In communist countries every lawyer gets the same wage. Hmm, does that happen in the United States?

In communist countries every doctor gets the same wage. That does not happen either.

In corrupt communist countries (such as the USSR, North Korea) there is one leader who is there until he dies or resigns, as he is an autocrat. No, Obama is not an autocrat.

In corrupt communist countries (such as the USSR, North Korea) if you say something against the leader, you are sent to prison and/or a concentration camp. Does that happen in the United States?

Wall Street would not exist in a communist country. Do you think there was a Wall Street in Moscow in 1980? No.

You do not comprehend communism; if you fail to distinguish the United States with North Korea and/or the USSR you are either lying or delusional.

As an American, you ought to be proud of your liberties and your freedom of speech. Neither of which are available in communist countries.

 
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Ok jaume, let me put it this way. We are not completely socialist yet, but we are quickly going down that road. When Obama pushed his Obamacare bill through, he effectively took over 1/6th of our economy. GM was another acquisition of his. He took over the company, threw out their corporate leaders, screwed the board of directors and investors, then gave it to the union. This is not the job of our government.

I threw the communist bit at you to be because you didn’t like the socialist name for where we are going. Although I do think Obama is a Marxist, Now, if you are approached by Obama and he is trying to use you for a photo op and you badmouth him, there will be consequences. You could disappear or you may be audited by the IRS. Our free speech seems to be limited to the common person and not the elite in Washington. I’m surprised my friend in Denver didn’t get arrested when he passed the presidential motorcade and stuck his hand way out to give the president the finger.

Again, the communist remark was me poking at you. As an older American, I have seen a lot of our freedom eroded over the years. The last decade (including Bush and his patriot act) has been hard on our freedoms and we are losing them at an accelerated rate, especially the last four years.

 
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When Obama pushed his Obamacare bill through

Most western countries had socialised healthcare. It doesn’t mean they’re all socialist countries.

GM was another acquisition of his.

It was that or let GM go bankrupt. As Romney ever so eloquently put it, “Let Detroit go bankrupt.” I’d rather have that one car company be state-owned than Detroit be up in flames even more than it already is. Obama saved Detroit from it getting even worse.

Again, many countries have some state-owned car companies. That doesn’t mean they are socialist.

I threw the communist bit at you to be because you didn’t like the socialist name for where we are going.

However, both are incorrect, as you admitted here (as well as me disproving you):

Ok jaume, let me put it this way. We are not completely socialist yet,

Although I do think Obama is a Marxist,

You, again are either lying or delusional. Tell me how Barack Obama’s policies resemble those of Karl Marx’s teachings as seen in Stalin’s Marxist-Leninist Soviet Union. You cannot.

Now, if you are approached by Obama and he is trying to use you for a photo op and you badmouth him, there will be consequences. You could disappear or you may be audited by the IRS.

Baseless, conspiratorial falseness with no evidence.

I’m surprised my friend in Denver didn’t get arrested when he passed the presidential motorcade and stuck his hand way out to give the president the finger.

Of course he didn’t: free speech.

Again, the communist remark was me poking at you.

I’m glad you can admit to your own lying.

The last decade (including Bush and his patriot act) has been hard on our freedoms

Patriot Act, passed under… NOT BARACK OBAMA… and introduced into the House by… NOT BARACK OBAMA. Stop accusing Obama of taking away your freedom when even you know it is but a lie.

 
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Last reply of the night buddy.

Just because some countries have socialized medicine doesn’t mean it is good for every country. Each country has different cultures, governments and traditions. Each country has to be what is good for them. Healthcare is not a one size fits all.

I would have let GM go bankrupt. It was a privately owned company and they made bad decisions. They deserved to go under and another company would have emerged in it’s place. The same with all of the financial institutions. It was not up to the taxpayers to bail them out from their bad decisions. That is how capitalism works, some companies make it and others don’t.

Obama is not worried about the people of America. He is one of the elite and is only worried about himself and his cronies. He is not the only one, we have had a run of his type lately. I will expand later.

No, this is fact. Mouth off to the president and you have screwed up. Again, he is not the only one. Clinton had a guy audited for telling him he sucked. Even in the 2008 elections there were people thrown out for badmouthing the candidate Obama.

I wasn’t lying, I gave you a substitute word for socialism for you.

You’re right, it passed under Bush and would have sunsetted, except Obama renewed it. Both Bush and Obama showed their true intentions with that bill. Just watch the next four years and what Obama does. Remember, he can’t run again and he doesn’t have to worry about what the people think about anything he does. He can do anything he wants by signing another executive order.

BTW, if Obama manages to let the UN usurp our bill of rights, the freedom of speech is next. Politicians hate that right almost as much as they hate the second.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

GM was another acquisition of his. He took over the company, threw out their corporate leaders, screwed the board of directors and investors, then gave it to the union. This is not the job of our government.

Letting a big company fall is not that simple. It is so massive and has influence over so many jobs, all of those displaced workers may very well have screwed the local and national economy, not to mention put a greater strain on social services. Bailouts aren’t always good, but they’re not a decision made lightly either. These are some things to consider before we malign bailouts.

Now, if you are approached by Obama and he is trying to use you for a photo op and you badmouth him, there will be consequences. You could disappear or you may be audited by the IRS

Proof? “Disappear”? And how many people do you know have criticized the President and disappeared? This really seems like a baseless and speculative bit of fearmongering.

I’m surprised my friend in Denver didn’t get arrested when he passed the presidential motorcade and stuck his hand way out to give the president the finger.

And yet he didn’t “disappear”. He gave the President the finger and lived to tell about it—free speech expression at it’s finest. You know you are disproving your own point here, right? I don’t even know why you post stuff like this. Do you not see how paranoid and contradictory it is?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Ok jaume, let me put it this way. We are not completely socialist yet, but we are quickly going down that road.

Good gawd…..YOU must have a “PhD” in paranoid fearmongering". Where did ya go to “school” for this shit.?

When Obama pushed his Obamacare bill through, he effectively took over 1/6th of our economy.

How often do we need to remind YOU that national health care is something that has been on the table for a looooong time….and, has been pushed for (at times) by the GOP?

GM was another acquisition of his. He took over the company, threw out their corporate leaders, screwed the board of directors and investors, then gave it to the union. This is not the job of our government.

Either YOU are blatantly lying on this or ya are merely ignorantly passing along bullshit ya “heard somewhere”? Once more…we have repeatedly presented THE FACTS on this to ya. Damn, ya must be using industrial-strength tin foil. LOL
I threw the communist bit at you to be because you didn’t like the socialist name for where we are going.

Aha….typical crap that is used upon being caught in a bullshit lie. YOU then backed down from your communism angle when I showed even it has multiple definitions, as does socialism (something YOU refuse to believe). Then ya went w/ progressivism

Now, YOU tell me exactly what is wrong with: “Progressivism is a general political philosophy advocating or favoring gradual social, political, and economic reform.1 Modern Progressivism emerged as part of a more general response to the vast social changes brought by industrialization.”

“It is left of center in the political spectrum and is to be contrasted with conservatism on the right and the revolutionary left, the former generally resisting changes it advocates and the latter rejecting its gradualism.”

Although I do think Obama is a Marxist,

Of course YOU do. Your very next few quote support just how ridiculously ignorant such opinions are.

Now, if you are approached by Obama and he is trying to use you for a photo op and you badmouth him, there will be consequences.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
I wonder how much an industrial-strength umbrella costs these days.
Pray tell us just what these consequences are.
OH, I see ya offer a few of the fearmongering ones that Faux Snooze tells ya about….LOL

You could disappear

Good grief, old man…do YOU not understand the crap YOU type out? What is wrong w/ YOU?

or you may be audited by the IRS.

NO…ya’re thinking of J. Edgar Hoover here.

Our free speech seems to be limited to FOR the common person, and BUT not the elite in Washington.

I’m gonna have to go w/ the clarification I made for ya. Show me where this is happening? If your difinitive example of this fairy tale is the outright bullshit below…then, I’ll gladly buy ya a huge heaping helping of F A I L cuz I know ya’re either lying or so ignorant on the subject that ya’re extremely willing to pass on a lie because it sounds sooooo supportive of the paranoia crap ya luv to buy into.

I’m surprised my friend in Denver didn’t get arrested when he passed the presidential motorcade and stuck his hand way out to give the president the finger.

This kind of action is just ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Your friend didn’t even get w/in a half-mile of the motorcade. Here in Wichita, when then Pres. Bush came to town, the route he took had crossroads (out in the county…sparsely populated) blocked 15 minutes before the motorcade was to come by. A woman tried to cross the road (no motorcade even in sight) and was arrested. Security for a motorcade is max-extreme.

Yes, your “friend” (is he actually “real”?) will not have his freedom of speech abridged.
BUT, his giving the Pres the finger would extreeeemly likely have him subjected to some very intense questioning

Again, the communist remark was me poking at you. As an older American, I have seen a lot of our freedom eroded over the years.

Since I’m “old”, too…I’ve seen many “freedoms” errode. BUT, they are completely understandable (at least by intelligent ppl). When I was a kid, U.S. population was 150,00,00. Today, it is 300,00,000 and is 84% urban This population is much more culturally diverse and is extremely polarized in its ideologies. This creates a climate that obviously needs a much tighter “control” in order to keep order.

When ya have that many ppl living so intermingled, certain “freedoms” are aboslutely going to be “limited”. When I was a kid, parking downtown (pop 10,000)….ya left your keys in the ignition of your car. Ya didn’t have to lock your house….EVER. Ya didn’t have to chain up your bicycle. Ppl didn’t sue each other over bullshit accidents.

The last decade (including Bush and his patriot act) has been hard on our freedoms and we are losing them at an accelerated rate, especially the last four years.

Tin-foil hat time.
YOU show me an INDEPENDANT, UNBIASED source that shows this “acceration” during the last 4 yrs….esp. one that can be “blamed” on Ombama.
 
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Just because some countries have socialized medicine doesn’t mean it is good for every country.

That is irrelevant to the argument. The argument was that the United States is not communist. A country having socialised healthcare does not make it Marxist, communist or socialist. Furthermore, you use those words interchangeably; they are not interchangeable.

I wasn’t lying, I gave you a substitute word for socialism for you.

The very definition of ignorant right here. Socialist, communist, and Marxist, as aforementioned, are not interchangeable.

My guess is that the next word you’ll be using is Leninist. Guess what, the United States is not Leninist either.

BTW, if Obama manages to let the UN usurp our bill of rights, the freedom of speech is next. Politicians hate that right almost as much as they hate the second.

False—and you know it. American politicians love their constitution. Most of them love free speech.

No, Obama does not hate free speech. No, you have no proof—as per usual—of such. No, Obama will not ban free speech. No, Obama is not a socialist nor a communist.

I am honestly wondering whether what you say is disinformation or misinformation: are you aware that a lot of what you spout (such as Obama being a socialist) is a lie? Are you aware of that but keep saying it just to annoy people? Or are you truly a believer of the fact that Obama is a socialist? Your combination of misinformation and disinformation is indeed saddening.

 
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Since we seem to be throwing these terms around, I thought I’d look them up for everyone’s clarification.

One version: “a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done”. This was kind of what I thought, that socialism was a “lite” form of communism, tempered by some capitalistic principles.

As another definition listed of socialism is “a system of society or group living in which there is no private property”, I would say that Obama is not exactly that; however I do think he favors social programs (like universal healthcare) more than a Republican candidate probably would.

 
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This is nonsense. Does anybody really think it matters if a Republican or Democrat is in office? If you want to know who’s really in charge, follow the money trail. That’s where the real power is, and it’s hellbent on ushering in an era of Order in the New World.

A bunch of gun nuts who have never read a Bible in their lives aren’t about to start a civil war. In the end they’ll be lining up to get their identity chips with the rest of us, if only to keep their jobs and their family units intact.

 
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Originally posted by Azolf:

This is nonsense. Does anybody really think it matters if a Republican or Democrat is in office?

Yes, because if a Democrat is president, while the either Senate or House is mainly Rebulican, and vice versa, it makes progress shite.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by Azolf:

This is nonsense. Does anybody really think it matters if a Republican or Democrat is in office?

Yes, because if a Democrat is president, while the either Senate or House is mainly Rebulican, and vice versa, it makes progress shite.

That’s why it makes no difference. It’s the “special interest” groups that keep this country unbalanced by buying out politicians through lobbying. It’s like letting the murderer choose the jury. It doesn’t matter who the judge/president is.

 
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^This is true. Seriously, congress needs to understand that RAISING TAXES ON THE RICH = LESS NATIONAL DEBT. The rich aren’t the ones in debt, it’s the poor. Also, the south can secede for all I care, it’s not like they’re integral to the nation.

 
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Seriously, congress needs to understand that RAISING TAXES ON THE RICH = LESS NATIONAL DEBT.

Contrary to popular belief by the left, $80b in taxes doesn’t actually solve a $1.2t budget deficit.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
Seriously, congress needs to understand that RAISING TAXES ON THE RICH = LESS NATIONAL DEBT.

Contrary to popular belief by the left, $80b in taxes doesn’t actually solve a $1.2t budget deficit.

It’s a start…..
and most definitely a step IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION….eh?
 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by issendorf:
Seriously, congress needs to understand that RAISING TAXES ON THE RICH = LESS NATIONAL DEBT.

Contrary to popular belief by the left, $80b in taxes doesn’t actually solve a $1.2t budget deficit.

It’s a start…..
and most definitely a step IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION….eh?

Spurring economic growth is a step in the right direction. Raising taxes doesn’t do that. Reforming Medicare and Social Security addresses the drivers of the debt. Raising taxes doesn’t.

Doing something, raising taxes, that no one thinks will stimulate economic growth is the worst thing to do.

 
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As it turns out, I’m working on an economics paper tonight, and came across a couple interesting points I thought I’d share. I don’t know how inherently credible this source, but it appears that between 08-09 the trade deficit was trending in the right direction—down by over $300 billion.

I read somewhere that it is more important to raise revenue than raise taxes in the big economic picture, since raising taxes for the most part only has a short term positive effect before adversely effecting economic growth. I think iss is on the right track when he suggests entitlement reform. Honestly, I think overpromised entitlements that are now coming to fruition and being paid on good faith are one of the things swamping us.

 
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As it turns out, I’m working on an economics paper tonight, and came across a couple interesting points I thought I’d share. I don’t know how inherently credible this source, but it appears that between 08-09 the trade deficit was trending in the right direction—down by over $300 billion.

The article says that the drop had more to do with being in a recession (and thus less economic activity) than because we were exporting more compared to our imports. That being said, the one good thing about Trump pretending to be serious about running for President was discussing our lousy trade agreements with China and Korea. News just broke that the US and the EU are discussing a free trade agreement. Interestingly, both the AFL-CIO and the US Chamber of Commerce support it, although talks seem preliminary right now.

Honestly, I think overpromised entitlements that are now coming to fruition and being paid on good faith are one of the things swamping us.

Oh absolutely. California is a nice microcosm – lavish government pensions that they will never be able to afford. They could have as much as $335b worth of debt.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

Oh absolutely. California is a nice microcosm – lavish government pensions that they will never be able to afford. They could have as much as $335b worth of debt.

See, this is the thing about California that I’m not able to figure out, in terms of how they propose climbing their way out of this crisis. I understand that their pensions are at times exorbitant, but if they are now in a situation where the government has overpromised them, they have to be cut and something has to give. I’m not talking about talking away their pensions, I’m talking about giving them a reasonable standard of living—for instance, someone getting a 400K pension a year getting a more reasonable 50K with medical benefits. They may not like it, but the alternative is the system eventually failing and no one getting their pensions. If anything, this scenario is a cautionary tale as to how hard it is to take something away from someone once it’s been extended. It seems more probable the entire ship would sink before they give an inch of their entitlement.

The article says that the drop had more to do with being in a recession (and thus less economic activity) than because we were exporting more compared to our imports.

Do you (or anyone else) have a more current source on the trade deficit the last couple years? I would be interested to see how its been trending since then.

 
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Basically Twilight, California is bankrupt. I would imagine a couple of states could be considered bankrupt as well. I would imagine, and have heard before, that they are hoping for the feds to bail them out. My state is in trouble too, but they have cut many programs the last few years trying to stop the bleeding. What I have wondered and it might be a good idea to question them on this, is why the politicians in Washington can make humongous amounts of money (even voting themselves a raise last year) for really doing nothing about the country. It is the same in the states anymore. Large salaries and nothing of real value coming out of the legislatures.

Some links about the deficit for you.

http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33577.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-trade-deficit-grows-to-422b-because-of-fewer-exports-deficit-with-china-hits-record-high/2012/12/11/71ccb358-4398-11e2-8c8f-fbebf7ccab4e_story.html

 
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Lower house state legislatures ought to be abolished, yet no one is considering doing such; they are a burden on the taxpayers’ money and do near nothing. People who are against “big government” should agree with this.

On the other hand, healthcare is a necessity and other such social programs should not be cut. Cut intelligently, don’t cut programs that will lead to more deaths and less safety (and consequently more crime).