AX: The Biblical Understanding of the Soul page 2

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No, karma. It’s simpler than that. The wages of sin is death. The consequences of sin is death. Sin causes death. Jesus was without sin, so he was able to pay for the sins of others with his own death. Jesus was a willing and voluntary sacrifice for sins. He was the only human sacrifice in the Bible.

If you are a perfect human being, or one incapable of sinning, then you don’t need this sacrifice to get into heaven.

 
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No, karma. It’s simpler than that. The wages of sin is death. The consequences of sin is death. Sin causes death. Jesus was without sin, so he was able to pay for the sins of others with his own death. Jesus was a willing and voluntary sacrifice for sins. He was the only human sacrifice in the Bible.

But all these presumptions are established as the will of God. If Jesus’ death is the Modus of Forgiveness, still it remains why? Was God incapable of forgiving Sin without Sacrifice, or unwilling? Why does there have to be come cosmic equation? Why have Jesus preach? It seems his Death, for no sake other then Death Itself, is the only matter of importance.

As Karma suggested Sincerity is an interesting angle. It also plays into the Forgiveness aspect that was prominent in Jesus’ teaching. Forgiving our sins, dying as a consequence of sins, that makes sense. It creates a bizarre left-hand right-hand duality within the aspect of God however. One punishing and demanding death, the other forgiving and sacrificing. But if these are two parts of one whole, why engage this process at all? Why not just forgive Sin from the get go, why levee Death upon it only to revoke it as a consequence of Sacrifice?

Also Leviticus allows for the sacrifice of humans. Jepthah sacrificed his daughters. Josiah sacrificed pagans. God was pretty pleased with all of them.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:But all these presumptions are established as the will of God.

God’s will was that people don’t sin. He allows them to do so to allow them free will, because slavery of will is a denial of love.

Originally posted by Ungeziefer:Also Leviticus allows for the sacrifice of humans. Jepthah sacrificed his daughters. Josiah sacrificed pagans. God was pretty pleased with all of them.
Well, this was predictable. Give your sources and I’ll break them apart for you.

 
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Isn’t this answered in the Bible? Follow the ten commandments, and follow in Jesus’ footsteps. I think that’s a pretty good description of what one must do in this case. Obviously, one can debate how Jesus was in the details, and how far you should go to follow him (=do what he did).

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by MyTie:

The earliest writings that can be confirmed, to the best of ability, to be attributed to the writers of the first century Church.

That piratically excludes almost everything but a handful of the writings attributed to Paul. No old testament, no gospels.

But Paul specifically cites other writers in his own writings. If we can use that as a base, it’s a good first step! If you really want to debate the semantics of the AX, I suppose we can, but I’d prefer if we looked at specific works, and debated their authenticity. Perhaps if you want to make the Bible writings themselves the topic, a new thread might be warranted.

I think it would be much quicker if you just come out and Ax a specific Bible version as the one considered true for this thread. Instead of trying to appeal to a false authenticity.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Axiom: The Bible is correct.

Jesus says that through Him, we can achieve eternal life, and that without Him, we will suffer eternal death. In what ways can we show gratitude to Christ for this gift He has offered us?

“Follow me or suffer!!!” doesn’t sound like a gift to me.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:I think it would be much quicker if you just come out and Ax a specific Bible version as the one considered true for this thread. Instead of trying to appeal to a false authenticity.

Not really necessary, as I doubt anyone will be picking apart the Bible versions so closely for this thread as to arrive at various different answers. However, for the sake of putting a pin in this: New American Standard Version.

Originally posted by EPR89:“Follow me or suffer!!!” doesn’t sound like a gift to me.

I helped give my kid life, in a way. I tell him all sorts of stuff to help preserve that. Don’t play near the busy road. Don’t play with fire. Stay out of the medicine cabinet. Wear a coat out in the snow. Eat your vegetables. I tell him, in a way, “Follow me or suffer!!!”. Am I to blame for his suffering if he doesn’t listen to what I tell him? I suppose since he is 4, to an extent. I need to keep an eye on him. But, is a grown adult, capable of distinguishing between good and evil, responsible for their own suffering, if they should choose to part with God’s words? It’s like I told EPR:
The wages of sin are death. It’s what the consequences of sin are, much like sticking your hand in a fire will cause you to be burned. God is all like, “EPR, don’t stick your hand in a fire”, and then you do it, and blame God for the burn. The interesting part that is always left off is how God willingly and voluntarily proffered payment for the debt with His own life. I mean, holy shit, people disobeyed by putting their hand in the fire, God willingly volunteers to take the burn for them, they turn Him down, and STILL blame Him for getting burned. Poor guy can’t win with some people. He, the infinitely just being, is their celestial punching bag of injustice. What a comical view on sin you have.

 
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MyTie, even tho the Ax of this thread states the Bible is true & factual…
the huge differences here in all of those examples of your is that:
One is tangible…can be seen and observed as being OBVIOUSLY cause-&-effect…for the most part.
The other isn’t tangible….it has to be taken ON FAITH alone.
Regardless if the Bible is correct….there exists (NO?) little PROOF that it is.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

MyTie, even tho the Ax of this thread states the Bible is true & factual…
the huge differences here in all of those examples of your is that:
One is tangible…can be seen and observed as being OBVIOUSLY cause-&-effect…for the most part.
The other isn’t tangible….it has to be taken ON FAITH alone.
Regardless if the Bible is correct….there exists (NO?) little PROOF that it is.

The AX, dude. I put it there so I don’t have to go down this road. This tangent is a distraction, and a predictable one at that. Find new talking points, stay on topic, and abide by the AX.

 
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The whole child-parent comparison you bring up time and again is not really valid – as I have told you time and again – because God did supposedly create all these contexts. He supposedly is the creator of the universe and everything in it. If the wages of sin are death then this is only the case because god made it that way. Some of these sin-punishment connections are simply arbitrary to me. If I don’t see any reason for such a rule then I don’t see a reason to follow it. It is the parent’s job to explain unclear connections to me by making arguments that I can understand, that make sense to me. God does not do that.
It’s just: “Follow me and suffer!!!”
It’s just obedience without any real use, justification, explanation, entirely for obedience’s sake.

I conclude – again – that god obviously is a massive, self-righteous prick.
And if I am going to suffer for that then this will not change my opinion in the least.



EDIT: I have no idea how the title of this thread and the OP are related to each other in any way.

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:

The whole child-parent comparison you bring up time and again is not really valid – as I have told you time and again – because God did supposedly create all these contexts. He supposedly is the creator of the universe and everything in it. If the wages of sin are death then this is only the case because god made it that way. Some of these sin-punishment connections are simply arbitrary to me. If I don’t see any reason for such a rule then I don’t see a reason to follow it. It is the parent’s job to explain unclear connections to me by making arguments that I can understand, that make sense to me. God does not do that.
It’s just: “Follow me and suffer!!!”
It’s just obedience without any real use, justification, explanation, entirely for obedience’s sake.

I conclude – again – that god obviously is a massive, self-righteous prick.
And if I am going to suffer for that then this will not change my opinion in the least.



Ok. We differ greatly in our opinions. I guess that much is obvious. I’d say that if we are in an omnipotent being’s service, and that omnipotent being is considered benevolant, than I owe Him unquestioning obedience. The only way that wouldn’t be true is if I somehow were to know BETTER than God (impossible), or if God didn’t exist (AX). I know it is counter-intuitive to today’s way of thinking, about you are your own master, and do what makes you happy, and you are an individual, but the reality may be different.


EDIT: I have no idea how the title of this thread and the OP are related to each other in any way.


The soul is the understanding we have on immortality, and the Bible explains that that comes from Christ. Try to keep up here. We’ve been through this.
 
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MyTie

God’s will was that people don’t sin. He allows them to do so to allow them free will, because slavery of will is a denial of love.

Granted. (There are some issues I have in regards to Sinning, versus God’s Omnisience and Omnipotence as Predestination. But that is a different angle best left aside.) But, why impose Death as the penalty of Sin. Especially if one is, at the end of things, willing to revoke it?

Well, this was predictable. Give your sources and I’ll break them apart for you.

Well, yeah. But, here you are.
“Leviticus allows for human sacrifice.” Leviticus 27: 28-29.
Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

Jepthah sacrifices his daughter. Judges 11:
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, “If Thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 then it shall be that whatsoever cometh forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” (he wins, then)
34 And Jephthah came to Mizpah unto his house, and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes and said, “Alas, my daughter! Thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me; for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.” 36 And she said unto him, “My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth, forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee on thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.” 37 And she said unto her father, “Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.” 38 And he said, “Go.” And he sent her away for two months; and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed; and she knew no man.

Josiah sacrifices pagans. 1 Kings 13: First he is told to, (1-2), and then he does, 2 Kings 23: (20).
20 He executed all the priests of the high places who were there, on the altars, and burned men’s bones on them; and he returned to Jerusalem.