Israel bombs Gaza page 2

102 posts

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Originally posted by MyTie:
He paints Israel as this aggressor, by leaving off THE ENTIRE OTHER SIDE of the events.

Or there’s the impossibility that he saw this somewhere and decided that it could become a thread here if he asked the people an obvious question.

Why all the hullabaloo about me calling something that represents ONE SIDE of an issue, biased?

Well as Darkruler said, you’re actiung very pissy about this.

Why is this such a nerve with you guys?

You seem much more distraught about this than anyone here, even after you’ve tried to verbally bitch-slap them.

Why pick this to fight with me about?

Don’t act like you’re an innocent bystender, you’ve contributed just as much (possibly even more) as anyone else here for this.

You aren’t going to win on this one.

Because Bible, right? Rite?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

He paints Israel as this aggressor

Well they are occupying a country, that is pretty aggressive

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:If you want a complete history between the two parties

I don’t want the complete history, but there is a very real difference between these two:

A) Israel BOMBS Palestine!

B) Israel bombs Palestine in response to several hundred rockets launched into their civilian districts.

Originally posted by dd790:Well they are occupying a country, that is pretty aggressive

Which country is that? You do realize that Palestine is not a country right? In fact, it refued to be a country if it had to coexist with a country called “Israel”. Didn’t know that? Perhaps you should read a little history, and then come back to the table.

Originally posted by tenco1:Because Bible, right? Rite?

huh? What are you talking about? What does the Bible have to do with my views on this?

 
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Q: And why were they firing those rockets?
A: Because crazy evil islam. THAT’S your answer.

You do realize that Palestine is not a country right?

That’s certainly the line the israeli government’s propaganda chiefs have been peddling for decades. Doesn’t make it any less bullshit though. Nor any less an excuse for a colonial-style landgrab.

In fact, it refued to be a country if it had to coexist with a country called “Israel”. Didn’t know that? Perhaps you should read a little history, and then come back to the table.

Suppose the UN told the US that they would have to abandon 2/3 of their land to make way for illegal immigrants to settle there. Would you be on board? That is exactly the situation the palestinians were under in ‘48. when they refused, jewish terrorist groups like Irgun started bombing the shit out of civilian targets like the King David hotel in jerusalem. Then they moved in with a larger force. Palestinians ran off into neighboring arab countries, and the jews – because they weren’t even ‘israeli’ yet, took their stuff and called it a day. And 60+ years later, that’s actually become their defense – they didn’t forcibly transfer the palestinians out; they just terrorized them into leaving.

Thanks, I don’t need a history lesson from you. I did my MA on this topic, and have been to the country to get answers straight from the horse’s mouth.

 
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Hamas started it and I think this time, Israel will finish it. Oh Jan, our government is telling us we have to give up land for illegal immigrants.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:Q: And why were they firing those rockets?
A: Because crazy evil islam. THAT’S your answer.

I don’t know why they are firing rockets. But, I do have a rhetorical question, for you!

Q: What is a good reason for Hamas to fire rockets into Israeli civilian districts?
A: There is no good reason.

You don’t bomb civilian populations. You just don’t. In my opinion, they forfeit any right they have to land when they do that. End of story.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Q: And why were they firing those rockets?
A: Because crazy evil islam. THAT’S your answer.

You do realize that Palestine is not a country right?

That’s certainly the line the israeli government’s propaganda chiefs have been peddling for decades. Doesn’t make it any less bullshit though. Nor any less an excuse for a colonial-style landgrab.

In fact, it refued to be a country if it had to coexist with a country called “Israel”. Didn’t know that? Perhaps you should read a little history, and then come back to the table.

Suppose the UN told the US that they would have to abandon 2/3 of their land to make way for illegal immigrants to settle there. Would you be on board? That is exactly the situation the palestinians were under in ‘48. when they refused, jewish terrorist groups like Irgun started bombing the shit out of civilian targets like the King David hotel in jerusalem. Then they moved in with a larger force. Palestinians ran off into neighboring arab countries, and the jews – because they weren’t even ‘israeli’ yet, took their stuff and called it a day. And 60+ years later, that’s actually become their defense – they didn’t forcibly transfer the palestinians out; they just terrorized them into leaving.

Thanks, I don’t need a history lesson from you. I did my MA on this topic, and have been to the country to get answers straight from the horse’s mouth.

There were plenty of arab terrorist attacks going on at the same time as the Israeli terrorist attacks. Not to be harsh, but your account here sounds remarkably one-sided. If you really did research this a lot though, it would be interesting to hear a more neutral view. Maybe post your paper?

 
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Israel bombs Palestine in response to several hundred rockets launched into their civilian districts.

This is as much of an incomplete view as you propose the OP is. Palestine didn’t launch rockets out of the blue, though I guess you would find their reasons invalid. There has been hatred between the two. You can’t select a certain event and then force another event into the same story just to make that first event seem better, especially not if you’re leaving out the rest of the entire history between the two.

You don’t bomb civilian populations.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that this is a good event.

 
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Bombing civilian populations is good.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

Israel bombs Palestine in response to several hundred rockets launched into their civilian districts.

This is as much of an incomplete view as you propose the OP is. Palestine didn’t launch rockets out of the blue, though I guess you would find their reasons invalid. There has been hatred between the two. You can’t select a certain event and then force another event into the same story just to make that first event seem better, especially not if you’re leaving out the rest of the entire history between the two.

You don’t bomb civilian populations.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that this is a good event.

Hamas has been lobbing missiles at Israel for the past 4 years. Why should Israel keep turning the other cheek?

 
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Bombing civilian populations is good.

You and I have a different definition for “arguing”.

Hamas has been lobbing missiles at Israel for the past 4 years.

And again, I don’t think anyone argues it is a good thing.

Why should Israel keep turning the other cheek?

My post wasn’t about that at all. It was about a news topic covering a certain attack and MyTie immediately jumping in that we should acknowledge an attack from the opposition, because otherwise you’re biased, or leaving things out. I responded that if you argue you’re leaving things out, you’ll need the entire history (we all know how “friendly” they’ve been to each other), and that there’s no bias in pointing out a fact without posing a stance around it.

 
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Not to be harsh, but your account here sounds remarkably one-sided.

It’s intended that way. Every pro-israeli argument i’ve ever heard always tries to put you in their shoes: ‘how would you like it if a hostile neighbor was shooting rockets at you/denying your right to exist?’ I’m simply flipping it around.

I’m not aware of any arab terrorist actions in the years leading up to the ’48 war. I know of a few massacres, like the one at jaffa, but that was during the war, and i know Nasser sponsored guerilla actions throughout the 50s. But the only terrorists from before then were jewish, like Irgun (who did indeed bomb british civilian targets).

I haven’t the slightest interest putting up an eighty page thesis. Nor would it help you much, if you’re looking for a neutral point, as that is by definition contradictory to the purpose of a thesis. My mentioning it wasn’t to give myself greater authority, merely to curtail this ‘let me give you a history lesson’ stuff. If people want a history lesson, I’m happy to suggest half a dozen books they can read on the subject. Otherwise, I’m going to assume this thread is meant for layman interest so could we please cut out this ‘you don’t know the facts’ garbage, let alone your criticism about my lack of ‘neutrality’. Fuck neutrality. It’s a weasel word, and it has no business in a political debate, especially a topic like this.

 
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I was just going off this list on the terrorist attack thing.

Neutrality has everything to do though in an argument like this. Without neutrality all you’ve got all arguments that are likely fallacious. You’ve got exaggerated anecdotes, you’ve got facts mentioned, but these facts ignore many other important details, you’ve got stats skewed to make one side look good, etc. In other words, without neutrality, you don’t have anything.

 
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Originally posted by BobTheCoolGuy:

I was just going off this list on the terrorist attack thing.

Neutrality has everything to do though in an argument like this. Without neutrality all you’ve got all arguments that are likely fallacious. You’ve got exaggerated anecdotes, you’ve got facts mentioned, but these facts ignore many other important details, you’ve got stats skewed to make one side look good, etc. In other words, without neutrality, you don’t have anything.

Which is exactly what this issue is all about. You’ve got the skewed history from the israeli point of view, and the skewed history from the palestinian point of view. You’ve got the skewed justification for wanton slaughter from the pro-israelis, and a skewed justification from the pro-palestinians. Nor do I think that’s particularly exceptional to this issue, indeed it pops up everywhere in politics, but because of the sensationalized nature of this issue, it’s much more so than with others. You can lessen the bias by avoiding demonizing the one side or the other, and by sifting through as much info as possible, but that in no way gives an account a ‘neutral’ perspective.

I was curious to see where mytie was going with the idea that the OP was biased, so I led him on. The OP is indeed biased via omission of facts, but his bias is much less so than mytie’s…not because of ideology, but because of how mytie constructs his arguments to be as us versus them as possible. ‘common sense’ indeed!

Again, Mytie being more biased doesn’t make the OP ‘neutral’, nor am I neutral, nor are you. Unless you’re completely ignorant or disinterested, you can’t be neutral about a subject – neutrality as a concept in politics was invented by liberals from academia around the same time Israel was founded (not related though) to give their own biases a ring of objective truth.
 
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Unless you’re completely ignorant or disinterested, you can’t be neutral – neutrality as a concept in politics was invented by liberals from academia around the same time Israel founded (not related though) to give their own biases a ring of objective truth.

Neutrality as a made-up concept to make one’s biased opinions appear more accurate. I hate to say it, but the cynic in me sees that is the case so much of the time.

 
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mm. keep in mind when i say ‘liberal’ I don’t mean it the way mytie means it. It would make an interesting thread to try to separate the ‘political’ liberal that turns up in talking about political parties, elections and social issues from the philosophical liberalism that underpins most western values, regardless of which end of the political spectrum you vote from.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:Again, Mytie being more biased doesn’t make the OP ‘neutral’

Yeah, I’m biased. I said that earlier. One side intentionally kills women and children. One side wants to wipe out entire countries. One side wants me dead. One side wants my children dead. That “one side” is Palestine. Based on those things, I’m very very biased against them, as everyone who isn’t Muslim should be. In fact, everyone who is Muslim, and doesn’t think women and children being slaughtered, and countries being wiped out, are good things, should also be biased against these people. They are giving you a bad name.

The OP is biased. That was my only point.

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:I responded that if you argue you’re leaving things out, you’ll need the entire history

We don’t need the entire history. That’s ridiculous.

Imagine two people who had a long history of fighting. One day, they get together and start fighting. It is biased to say “Person A has been hitting Person B”, and leave it at that. It is “more” unbiased to say “they were fighting”. Do you need to list the entire history of both people and all motivations behind each fight, and describe each punch since they were both born? No. Not at all. But, when we are talking about a specific time, NOW, and Palestine is launching rockets, and Israel is bombing, that is THIS FIGHT, and you do not describe THIS FIGHT as one country bombing another country. That’s not accurate. That’s not unbiased.

As for this being “my bone to pick”, and I’m somehow the one fixated on this, I went back and looked. After I initially said that the OP was biased, I have not mentioned it again, except to address people who argue against my point. I’ve done nothing but defend my statement. I have not picked at it and harped on it any more than to simply address the comments of others.

 
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In fact, everyone who is Muslim, and doesn’t think women and children being slaughtered, and countries being wiped out, are good things, should also be biased against these people. They are giving you a bad name.te>

well, yes. It’s just that there’s more to it than religion, and you’re suggesting muslims be anti-palestinian just to make islam look better.

keep in mind that islam’s only been a factor with the palestinians for a pretty short time. Maybe a decade ago, no more, it was the PLO – which was largely secular – who was in charge, and israel thought they were evil monsters, same yadda yadda as now. Also might want to be aware that one of the reasons hamas became so powerful is that israel encouraged them as a way of divide and conquer – they were trying to undermine the PA (PLO) by letting these nutbags grow stronger. That tactic became rather less clever after hamas won the election in ’06 and barricade themselves in gaza.

As for the history…you don’t need the whole thing (although it would certainly explain why the palestinians are willing to throw in with religious nutbags), but you’re deliberately limiting it to: Israel got attacked by rockets, they retaliated, without explaining the motive for shooting those rockets in the first place. You say they hit civilians so their motives don’t matter, but the fact is that both sides have been willing to kill civilians, and both sides have frequently targeted civilians specifically. Collective punishment works both ways.

 
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The OP is biased.

Then you have extremely broad definitions for “bias”.

One day, they get together and start fighting. It is biased to say “Person A has been hitting Person B”, and leave it at that. It is “more” unbiased to say “they were fighting”.

Interesting, but at the same time you want to argue that Palestine is the first to “punch” and Israel is only the good guy to retaliate. I wonder how come you can’t see that as bias.

Do you need to list the entire history of both people and all motivations behind each fight, and describe each punch since they were both born?

Don’t overly exaggerate. The point is that you’re trying to put the entire blame on Palestine by mentioning that Israel’s attack was only because of Palestine (“mommy, he hit me first”), but that ignores the fact there’s a history of attacks.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I love how the OP is so biased, that he/she ignores everything Hamas and Palestine has done to instigate this. Is this like the time in 1941, that that evil US Navy base in Pearl Harbor fired live weapons at Japanese aircraft, aggressively killing some of their soldiers? Perhaps it’s like the time that those really really mean women violently squirted their blood all over Ted Bundy?

Hamas, the terrorist organization that wants to wipe out Israel, has been firing hundreds of rockets into Israel, indiscriminately for weeks now. Well, intensely for weeks, but on and off for years. Israel targets specific Hamas military targets, and then suddenly Israel is the bad guy?

You know, what I can’t figure out is why the western world, specifically US liberals, hate Israel. I mean, I know they have done some bad stuff in the past, just like every nation. But, overall, they abide by international law, Geneva convention laws, they are one of Palestine’s biggest aid suppliers, they attend peace talks even when Hamas doesn’t, they agreed to the formation of a Palestinian State, at least twice, etc. Not to mention they are our allies, and the only ones in the region, and our enemies in the region are backward living rapist terrorist jihadist religious despot extremists who want to wipe out entire countries, including civilian populations, for not having the same religious beliefs. All I can think of, is that liberals really HATE capitalism and freedom so much, that they constantly root for those that want to undo the US, and chide against the US and their allies (see Noam Chomsky). But why? I’m not sure. I can’t figure it out. Perhaps it’s trendy? Maybe it’s vogue? Edgy? I don’t have any idea. This is the first time, in all recorded history, where such a large piece of the population of a country, was so self loathing. It can’t end well.

Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

liberals

You just had to add that, didn’t you?

If the shoe fits…

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Explain how the OP is biased. You can’t! He hasn’t said enough to be accused of bias, for OR against israel.


OP only showed one side of the conflict. A one sided representation is…. anyone? anyone? DING DING DING! That’s right! It’s called “biased”.


Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Religion and religion. Never give up fighting for what you believe in.

you would fight to the end only for religion, and nothing else. i’ve never seen the evil of religion illustrated so plainly.


Evil? Evil that I don’t want people to stop believing in what they want to believe in? Evil that I value freedom of Religion? Besides, remove religion, and violent power hungry people will think up something else to fight over.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:Here’s the thing about christian zionism (and as mytie hasn’t yet admitted to this, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt)

You were right to give me the benefit of the doubt. As you say “zionist Christianity” is based on the idea that the temple has to be rebuilt for the second coming to happen. It ignores the fact that Jesus said He would rebuild His temple, when He was talking about Himself. The Book of Revelation is the most figurative book in the Bible.


As I said, the reason I side with Israel is, first and foremost, it doesn’t want to kill me. Secondly, Palestine is a brutal “nation” that supports a regime that terrorizes and kills its own people, women and children. It attacks Israel indiscriminately, firing rockets blindly into civilian populations. Its stated purpose is to wipe out Israel. Regardless of “who owns the land”, I cannot support a brutal and hateful religious despot bent on the murder of anyone who doesn’t have the same religion as them. My support of Israel is one of common sense, not religious conviction.


I really thought you were mature than this
 
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world has to do something against this! jews are bombing our brothers and sister again. and they give their muslim bomb kill operation a name from the bible. this is a harrassment towards jewism, christianity and islam. but america keeps saying israel is right while 100 palestines are murdered every day. this has to stop, everyone must protest against this and eventually invade israel.

 
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Originally posted by Rolby:

world has to do something against this! jews are bombing our brothers and sister again. and they give their muslim bomb kill operation a name from the bible. this is a harrassment towards jewism, christianity and islam. but america keeps saying israel is right while 100 palestines are murdered every day. this has to stop, everyone must protest against this and eventually invade israel.

Never let it be said that the pro-israelis is the only side stacked with uncritical stupidity. The muslim idealist who frets about the ummah (and doesn’t give a shit about palestine the other 99% of the time) is just as contemptible as the christian zionist or the card-carrying AIPAC goonie.

1) They are no more your brothers and sisters than any other nutjob authoritarian hacks are who swear the shahadah. I do like how this statement contrasts with your later bullshit about jews christians and muslims all needing to stick together.
2) muslim bomb kill operation? bible? I haven’t heard anything about this, but to be honest it’s so insignificant I can’t say I much care either way.
3) Nobody’s going to invade Israel. Like it or not, Hamas DID have this coming.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:I really thought you were mature than this

You’re calling me immature for being pro-Israel? Why not try arguing against my assertions instead?

Originally posted by Rolby:

world has to do something against this! jews are bombing our brothers and sister again. and they give their muslim bomb kill operation a name from the bible. this is a harrassment towards jewism, christianity and islam. but america keeps saying israel is right while 100 palestines are murdered every day. this has to stop, everyone must protest against this and eventually invade israel.


Yeah! Why doesn’t Israel just let Palestine launch their rockets in peace? lol

I love how you tack on “and eventually invade israel” on the end, like no one would notice. Where do these people come from?

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:I really thought you were mature than this

You’re calling me immature for being pro-Israel? Why not try arguing against my assertions instead?

Because most of your claims are full of shit propaganda.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by thepunisher52:I really thought you were mature than this

You’re calling me immature for being pro-Israel? Why not try arguing against my assertions instead?

Because most of your claims are full of shit propaganda.

Like which claim? Come on. Back the insults up. I’d love to debate you on the merits of my assertions, but I can’t debate your opinions, especially when your opinion is that what I say is “shit”. Explain why you think it is shit, and please, be specific.