Israel bombs Gaza page 3

102 posts

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the only ones in the region, and our enemies in the region are backward living rapist terrorist jihadist religious despot extremists who want to wipe out entire countries, including civilian populations, for not having the same religious beliefs.

This shows your stupidity and ignorance.
If I remember correctly PLO was secular at best and communist at worse.
Ever heard of George Hbbash OR Carlos the Jackal?

As I said, the reason I side with Israel is, first and foremost, it doesn’t want to kill me. Secondly, Palestine is a brutal “nation” that supports a regime that terrorizes and kills its own people, women and children.

CARE TO ELABORATE?
,BLOCKQUOTE> Its stated purpose is to wipe out Israel. Regardless of “who owns the land”, I cannot support a brutal and hateful religious despot bent on the murder of anyone who doesn’t have the same religion as them. My support of Israel is one of common sense, not religious conviction.
Ever heared their side of story?

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:
If I remember correctly PLO was secular at best and communist at worse.
Ever heard of George Hbbash OR Carlos the Jackal?

We aren’t talking about the PLO. We are talking about the one currently involved in this dispute, Hamas, which won the election from the PLO backed fatwah in 06. Come on man! Keep up with the times.

Originally posted by thepunisher52:
Ever heared their side of story?

Yeah, if you were talking about the fact that Palestine was there “first”, and that they own the land and don’t think Israel should exist. I understand that.

Now, let’s deal with reality. Israel isn’t going anywhere. It’s not just going to pack up and leave. Palestine needs to negotiate with Israel and the world, and not fight for something that simply isn’t going to happen. Continued bloodshed leads to nothing. Their hard line “we should own everything” approach is what is impeding the peace process. Israel has numerous times given the Palestinians and Egyptians land, as well as signed treaties that would have given both countries independence and land. The only reason the Palestinians refused is that they don’t want an Israel to exist at all.

Yes, I’ve read the history.

 
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you should actually look closer at those land deals. They all required ten year mandates from israel overseeing palestinian foreign affairs – which sounds alot like british style colonialism – as well as the fact that the land given was always non-contigious – they would have to go through constant border checks to get from one side to the other, and criss-crossing their territory was israeli-only roads. That’s not even mentioning the settler lands that encroach into the OT, which no administration has been willing to put a stop to. The idea that israel has kept giving palestine great deals and been refused because of arab ‘obstinance’ is another enduring myth of this conflict.

Also it’s ‘Fatah’ not ‘fatwah’ and punisher is right to bring up the PLO. Throughout most of the conflict israel’s dealt with the PLO, and accused them of the same ‘evil monster rapist’ stuff that they’re accusing hamas. It’s not justified for Hamas, and it certainly wasn’t for Arafat. And, they were also secularist, which kind of puts a crimp on the whole idea that this is been some kind of religious conflict since time immemorial.

 
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Despite these border checks, Israel has given the other side great deals.

Consider what would happen without those border checks. Even with border checks, there is war breaking out from the weapons smuggled in there. Without those border checks, the entire place would erupt into all out bloody warfare, and take the entire region with it, and perhaps the world. Israeli border checks are a very important component to peace. What’s the complaint against it? People have to stop and submit to weapons searches? OH THE HUMANITY!

Israel has given them land, given them self government, offered them mutual sovereignty, all in the hopes for peace. Every time they give up land to Palestine, they are attacked. The Sinai is now just a hotbed for attacks and a desert for trafficking rockets.

The enduring Arab “obstinance” is not a myth, it’s a fact. Read: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=83&x_article=2116

You pro-Palestine debaters cannot hide from the history nor the facts. You aren’t going to win by calling my points “shit” or “myths”. I’ll just keep coming back, posting historically accurate fact. Choke on it. You are backing the wrong side.

 
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when you stop using bullshit sources like camera, perhaps i will.

Like Middle East Forum or Daniel Pipes, camera is a tool of aipac. it has been since its inception. As one reviewer points out,

To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively – and perhaps literally – doing God’s work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage. … To many in the media CAMERA is … an advocacy group trying to impose its pro-Israeli views on mainstream journalism."

As to the ‘great deal’, let me reiterate the question i posed yesterday. Suppose the US were in Palestine’s shoes (and indeed, Alaska was one of the early Zionist choices to put Israel). Would you be so happy about the endless series of checkpoints, the second-class citizen treatment, the fact that the vast majority of your fellow citizens who got an education had to do so outside of the country they were born in, that their parents and grandparents property rights are meaningless to the Jews who took it away from them? Of course not. You’d be fighting just like the palestinians are (particularly given the militant ‘just give me a rifle to defend my land’ patriotism infecting many american hardline conservatives).

Let’s be honest – the ONLY reason you give a shit about israel is because ’they’re a friend in the region’. Well, so is Saudi Arabia. So was Egypt, not too long ago. But now that we know that US oil will outlast middle eastern oil, that friendship is kind of useless. there’s no reason to back them so fervently, other than the forty years of propaganda (oh yeah, the US only became Israel’s closest allies over a period of decades; before that they were actively antagonistic) that the US gov’t has been pouring down the throats of its citizens, in order to convince them that the piles of cash they give israel every year are justified expenses (you want to cut down the costs of the recession? Start with Israel aid).

Choke on it. You are backing the wrong side.

Try not to be such a melodramatic dipshit, please. It kind of interferes with your ‘just stating facts’ persona.

 
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I find it quite odd Israel just had to do this right after the USA election.
Is it really just a coincidence?

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:

http://www.youtube.chttp://youtu.be/w8VbtRk5ufo?t=2m40s
RT news man – “Why are so many children being killed my Israeli airstrikes if you’re going after militants?”

Israel official – “There are no children, there are no many children though that though been hurt by IDF. Only TERRORISTS are hurt and only TERRORISTS are targeted.”

Can you really argue with that? I mean those children, school teachers, and various civilians had to be terrorists.

Re-posting from /2/‘s gaza thread.
Beware, it’s from Russia-today.

 
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They should NUKE Egypt and other arab countries.

 
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Originally posted by Roki123:

They should NUKE Egypt and other arab countries.

Don’t you mean liberate?

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively – and perhaps literally – doing God’s work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage. … To many in the media CAMERA is … an advocacy group trying to impose its pro-Israeli views on mainstream journalism."

The fact remains, Palestine has turned down three offers of statehood, since it would also have to recognize Israel. One of those times, all of their demands were met on paper, along with “Israel is also a state”, and they still inexplicably refused to sign. Wonder why…

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:let me reiterate the question i posed yesterday

Let me say that you are leaving off a few important parts. When those parts are put into the equation, I would support Israel, and advocate for my fellow citizens to be imprisoned or deported. The parts you are leaving off: my fellow citizens are firing rockets into civilian populations, using children as suicide bombers, using civilian populations as covers for military operations (human shields), and my countrymen wanted me personally dead. If my countrymen were doing that, I would root against them, and for Israel. I’m not so jingoist that I can’t condemn my country’s actions, if my country is Palestine. I do not believe Palestine deserves independence, even if it was there historically. The ones attacking Israel and ignoring diplomacy deserve prison, in the least. They are not defending their land against a military occupation by force, which is noble. They are defending their land against a military force by killing women and children indiscriminately and hiding behind them, which is cowardly and shameful.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:Let’s be honest – the ONLY reason you give a shit about israel

I care about Israel because I can read the news. I see what the Palestinians are doing, and I can tell it is wrong. I can see that Israel is giving in to demands. I watched the news the day they withdrew from the Gaza strip. I watched as militants fired on them. I watched as they built communities for the Palestinians, in reparation for the real estate lost. I mean, these incidents don’t happen individually. My support for Israel comes from watching the parties involved, and not from any self interest, except for one. Palestine would behead my 4 year old son, given the chance.

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:

I find it quite odd Israel just had to do this right after the USA election.
Is it really just a coincidence?

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:

http://www.youtube.chttp://youtu.be/w8VbtRk5ufo?t=2m40s
RT news man – “Why are so many children being killed my Israeli airstrikes if you’re going after militants?”

Israel official – “There are no children, there are no many children though that though been hurt by IDF. Only TERRORISTS are hurt and only TERRORISTS are targeted.”

Can you really argue with that? I mean those children, school teachers, and various civilians had to be terrorists.

Re-posting from /2/‘s gaza thread.
Beware, it’s from Russia-today.

This is what I’m talking about when leaving off one side of a fight is biased. Perhaps you mean that the increase in rocket attacks from Palestine, right after the election, is oddly timed, and Israel is responding to that.

Originally posted by Roki123:

They should NUKE Egypt and other arab countries.

How edgy and cool!

But seriously, if you murdered every enemy you had, you would always have enemies.

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:
Originally posted by Roki123:

They should NUKE Egypt and other arab countries.

Don’t you mean liberate?

Liberate Egypt from who? They are free. Is the world you live in that crazy one where Arabs are always victims of ’Merica and injustice?

 
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It happened in england in WW2. Germany was sending V2s of the english channel.

Originally posted by BobTheCoolGuy:

If thousands of rockets were fired at the US every year, I’d want the US to do something.


Also, fake casualties are not a good way of proving a point Hamas.

 
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Mytie clearly isn’t bias at all.
Die for Israel, he says.

 
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Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:Mytie clearly isn’t bias at all.

I said I was biased. I acknowledged that, and wear it on my sleeve. You, on the other hand, are throwing rocks in a glass house. You have a friggin Israeli flag burning as your avatar.

Originally posted by Zachary_Greene:
Die for Israel, he says.

I said that? I don’t remember saying that, nor anything close to it. So, what the fuck are you talking about? Ad hominem and strawmen abound in your short post.

 
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The fact remains, Palestine has turned down three offers of statehood, since it would also have to recognize Israel. One of those times, all of their demands were met on paper, along with “Israel is also a state”, and they still inexplicably refused to sign. Wonder why…

Shitty offers deserve to get turned down flat. The PLO actually did try to acknowledge israel as a state (that’s the one that arafat and rabin got the peace prize for), and it was still a shitty deal.

The parts you are leaving off: my fellow citizens are firing rockets into civilian populations, using children as suicide bombers, using civilian populations as covers for military operations (human shields), and my countrymen wanted me personally dead. If my countrymen were doing that, I would root against them, and for Israel. I’m not so jingoist that I can’t condemn my country’s actions, if my country is Palestine. I do not believe Palestine deserves independence, even if it was there historically. The ones attacking Israel and ignoring diplomacy deserve prison, in the least. They are not defending their land against a military occupation by force, which is noble. They are defending their land against a military force by killing women and children indiscriminately and hiding behind them, which is cowardly and shameful.

During the revolutionary war the US engaged in what was, at the time, unacceptable breakage of the rules of war. Specifically they refused to fight where the british wanted them to fight (ie. guerilla warfare). Similarly rockets can be forgiven because that’s all hamas has, they’re fighting with everything they got against a superior force (just like how the US was outgunned against the british).

Now your basis is that the palestinians specifically target civvies. i won’t argue against that..yet (I’m mainly concerned about starting a flame war. i could bring in sources that say israel has attacked civvies, but you’d counter and say that source is biased or whatever. i’m willing to concede on that ground so long as you don’t pull up any BS next. Got it?).

Nevertheless the israelis are willing to have civilian casualties. These bombings are targeted to hit the terrorist leaders; nevertheless they hit civvie targets, including a few jews (as i pointed out in my last post). Now i admit, between personal attacks on civvies and incidental attacks on civvies, i’d back the latter. but i sure as hell wouldn’t back the latter all that strongly, particularly if i were in a situation to be bombed.

As to human shields As the report indicates, israel has certainly been willing to use human shields in the very recent past . As yet, they haven’t done it, but they were certainly guilty of using red cross buses as attack positions during operation cast lead (again, the original file was shut down).

The problem is, as with the US revolutionaries, that there’s a lot of blurriness about what happened where and who was ultimately responsible. If i were american, i’d be deepy suspicious of any foreign government who claimed nothing all that bad had happened, and tried to blame it on similar sounding propaganda. Killing women and children is terrible; i just doubt the israelis haven’t done the same thing, when it suited them.

I don’t see israel giving into demands. I see one of the most hardline governments since Begin doing nothing on the peace process front, and frankly, not doing a hell of a lot on the retaliatory front. it’s like they’ve been waiting for another missiles fired before they take action, and that’s not good diplomacy, it’s not being patient or anything like that. it’s not knowing what the fuck to do and settling by twiddling one’s thumbs.

And they have killed children

 
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and my countrymen wanted me personally dead

I wasn’t aware that Hamas or the Palestinian people did want you personally dead. Do you really believe that Hamas meet to discuss how they will kill an internet poster called ‘MyTie’? Or do they want you dead because they really want to kill all Americans just like all those other violent Arabs that you paint with a single brush

Palestine would behead my 4 year old son, given the chance.

To what advantage? Beheading a 4 year old American boy would be a very bad PR move.

 
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Mytie, you say Pals are anti american
Tell me, has america given them any reason not to be so?
The bombd that hit them are made in america or bought with american grants, the planes who drop them are made in america or bought with american grants, the pilot who fleis them is trained in america.
The ships that are choking their economy are made in america or bought with american money.
Dude, its like wondering why syrian rebels hate Iran

 
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MyTie, I don’t think emotional appeals about your son, being completely unfounded in reality as it were, are really going anywhere.

Hamas is not a threat to your child. Statements like that don’t really serve any purpose.

 
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Originally posted by softest_voice:

I think your points are valid punisher, but threats (even joking ones) against family aren’t cool.
Maybe edit that bit out.

I know it’s ridiculous for MyTie to appeal to emotion with “OMG THEY’RE GONNA KILL MAH BABBY!” but let’s not play into that ruse.

OK

 
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I don’t know why but when ever i comment on a thread, no onee;se comments on it anymore

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

As the report indicates, israel has certainly been willing to use human shields in the very recent past . As yet, they haven’t done it, but they were certainly guilty of using red cross buses as attack positions during operation cast lead (again, the original file was shut down).

Tell me: How do you know that? You were there? You have seen the “files”?

 
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Originally posted by Roki123:

They should NUKE Egypt and other arab countries.

:facepalm:
For you to know, this is a serious topic

 
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I feel like I’m in a boxing match, a 5 on 1 boxing match, and I’m the 1.

@Jan – That time that the “PLO tried to acknowledge Israel” was a timetable of events set by both parties toward the eventual statehood of both of them. The problem was, that was just a ploy. The event that had to start it was the ceasassion of hostilities and attacks from Palestine. Arafat, however, continued the attacks. He never wanted the agreement he got a peace prize for. It was simply to stall them so he could attack without reprise. Check out this fantastic read on the “hospitality” of Palestine to Israel. http://www.mitchellbard.com/articles/palstate.html

As for your points about the US, I’m not going to forgive any country’s mistakes because my country has flaws in its background, and I don’t understand how a colonial guerrilla war against an armed military, has anything to do with rockets launched into civilian sectors. The colonists weren’t attacking London. Further, Israel isn’t intentionally killing children. Palestine, on the other hand, has strapped bombs to children and intentionally sent them to suicidal death.

@dd – Islamic Jihad. Read up on it. The Islamic Jihad movement has an extensive history of suicide bombers targeting civilians, and children suicide bombers. The stated mission of the jihad is to, firstly, wipe out Israel, secondly, wipe out the USA, and thirdly, kill or convert mankind. Their purpose to beheading my 4 year old? They think their God wants it. Bad PR move? lol. Yeah… I don’t think they care about PR.

@softest – Hamas is not a threat to my son because there are armies standing in the way, and on the front line, is the Israeli army. Make no mistake, if there were nothing in the way, the islamofacists would murder everyone who didn’t convert, you included.

@thepunisher – If Palestine had never attacked, or quit attacking, and quit threatening others, not another US bomb would fall on them. If my country were being attacked by a much much more powerful force, and for some stupid reason there were idiots firing pot shots at them, and my family were in danger, I’d probably opt for the plan that ended hostilities. The picture is not one of a peaceful group of people falling victim to an oppressive and bully force, but a group of hard nosed fools, fighting an impossible fight, toward an end that will not be what they want, without any desire to change course or compromise.

 
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You know Hamas attacked Israel first. I hope Israel wipes Hamas off the planet. Then I would like them to blow Iran into oblivion. There, argument over.

 
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Hamas didn’t attack Israel first. They’re responding to a military invasion by a hostile faction. :|

 
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Then I would like them to blow Iran into oblivion.

Never forget that a State does not always represent the people within it. Isn’t that the crux of there being a problem with civilian attacks?

I’d much rather see the Iranian population throw off the yoke of their fear mongering tyrants and join the world as a free civilized nation. They have a lot of culture and pride they can fall back upon, things are stirring, it may yet happen. The Islamic Revolution has only lasted thirty years, and I do not see it gong much father as their bumbling theocrats foster enmity, corruption and repression.

 
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@thepunisher – If Palestine had never attacked, or quit attacking, and quit threatening others, not another US bomb would fall on them. If my country were being attacked by a much much more powerful force, and for some stupid reason there were idiots firing pot shots at them, and my family were in danger, I’d probably opt for the plan that ended hostilities. The picture is not one of a peaceful group of people falling victim to an oppressive and bully force, but a group of hard nosed fools, fighting an impossible fight, toward an end that will not be what they want, without any desire to change course or compromise.

Tell that to george washington
http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/11/israels-latest-assault-on-gaza-the-lie-of-who-started-it/