Obesity apologist page 2

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Bariatric surgery is carried out by national health services, yes Twilight. however, like jaw wiring, is strictly an option of last resort. These are only considered by the socialised helthcare systems if the patient’s obesity has become a serious threat to their continued health. In other words, it has become life threatening.

Prior to that point, you are welcome to have it done, but not through the national health service. Instead, use one of the many private hospitals, and pay your own way.

Socialised health care does include many options, including dietitian clinics, to get people eating right. Exercise facilities on the NHS are very limited, but they are there (not enough there, in my own opinion, but hey-ho). However, ultimately, it is not the purview of the NHS to force treatment onto you. If you cannot be bothered to put effort in yourselves, why should we help you? Plenty of others in need of care.

That’s why in the main (with a few exceptions for individual patients with exceptional circumstances) the NHS does not fund cosmetic procedures. That’s strictly the purview of the private healthcare systems.


Unfortunately, that does leave us in the situation of having to adapt our hospitals and clinics to cope with an epidemic of obesity. In the long run, it might cost us more, but even if we were to operate, unless these people change their eating habits, many of them will eventually be back to the size they were before. We end up going round in pointless expensive circles.

 
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When it comes to fat, I think I am lucky and unluck y at the same time.
Lucky because I lose it very quickly and unlucky because when I lose it, my belly bulges out for some reason.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:

When it comes to fat, I think I am lucky and unluck y at the same time.
Lucky because I lose it very quickly and unlucky because when I lose it, my belly bulges out for some reason.

It sounds like you have a certain figure type…like pear shaped etc., meaning that fat will reside in that one area regardless of losing weight. I would think that this would mean liposuction might be effective for you. I’m normally not a fan of lipo, because I believe in natural, overall weight loss, but if one area is a problem no matter what, that would certainly take care of it.

Originally posted by vikaTae:

Bariatric surgery is carried out by national health services, yes Twilight. however, like jaw wiring, is strictly an option of last resort. These are only considered by the socialised helthcare systems if the patient’s obesity has become a serious threat to their continued health. In other words, it has become life threatening.

Prior to that point, you are welcome to have it done, but not through the national health service. Instead, use one of the many private hospitals, and pay your own way.

That sounds just like Medicaid. Last I was on it, they would do those bariatric surgeries, but only if there were co-morbidities present like diabetes, sleep apnea, heart disease, etc. Which brings me to this point—why, for any reason, do the insurance companies have to wait so long? I mean, even financially speaking, how much money do they pay in hospitalizations and diabetes etc. medication for someone who is overweight? I would think that the lapband surgery would be not just beneficial to the client, but a smart financial and health prevention for the insurance to cover, not just on a last resort basis.

I guess you could say my friend Mark is an example of how wrong poor health can go. He is overweight and has uncontrolled diabetes, and so far the Veterans Administration has done the following:

Open heart surgery (to include reviving him on the table when he died)
Several hospitalizations
Several medications
Lasik eye surgery when his sight started to go
Removal of both legs at the knee and a six month hospital stay earlier this year

Oh yeah, I would definitely think that a bariatric surgery could be more cost beneficial than treating a bunch of symptoms.

 
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For the same reason that Medicaid won’t. The surgery is a last resort, meaning there are plenty of other, cheaper ways to try and fix the problem first, and the surgery is only going to be successful if the patient is willing to try those other methods. The surgical route is only tried when those other methods fail. Otherwise, they’ll keep on packing on the pounds as best they can, after the surgery is complete. Over time, they will head right back to where they were before, and then we’ll have to do the surgery all over again.

It just becomes a huge waste of everyone’s time and money.

 
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I read a book called Designated Fat Girl, about a woman with a severe eating disorder who had the surgery. If I ever thought I struggled with my eating, it was nothing compared to her—the type of out of control lifestyle where someone shovels away five burgers and shakes three times a day. She had a psychological eating issue, and only the surgery showed her the way back. My boss, additionally, had the lapband surgery and said that even though it’s effective, it will not fix what is going on inside someone’s head—they just can’t physically eat as much. So I guess the question is—if it doesn’t fix someone’s eating disorder, are they all going to eventually go back to where they were, and if so what is the point of the surgery existing (who is an ideal candidate)?

 
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The point of the surgery, is to fix the obesity, when the person is really trying, but for whatever reason, changing eating habits and aerobic exercise are not shifting the weight. See previous example of uncontrolled diabetes, where fat buildup is going to occur, from virtually any food containing natural sugars or starches. Fruit, vegetables, pasta, bread, all will contribute to fat buildup due to the severely malfunctioning bodily energy distribution system.

This is why it is last ditch. The person’s head is in the right place, they are really trying, but their body is not responding. So the surgery is used to alter the digestive process, and additional lipo to suck out large amounts of the existing fat buildup, when the fat buildup has reached extreme levels.

It won’t help forever, but it gives breathing space.

 
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I hate whoever came with up this old bull about it being a mental issue or a genetic strand or even a disability. Take any handful of obese individuals from America, and I doubt you will find a single one that has some outstanding issue from the fatness itself. People in a country with tons of freedom tend not to give three shits about issues such as being fat. It’s as simple as that.

 
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Not true, 12. Yes, some (many?) are lazy, but not all. A lot of people are overweight and seriously hate being that way.

 
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I’ll say this, I don’t think obese people should complain about there weight, because they put the food in there mouths (most likely), and didn’t stop. And ate terrible, fatty foods, which is why they are obese.

But I don’t think you should hate them just because they are obese. Don’t be prejudice.

 
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Yet they still stay fat.

I’m just saying, don’t be overweight by choice, and most certainly don’t whine if you are fat to begin with. There are those who have genuine problems with wieght on an uncontrollable level, but so many people today use it as an excuse, that I fail to believe anyone overweight, genuine problem sufferers and lazybones alike.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

The point of the surgery, is to fix the obesity, when the person is really trying, but for whatever reason, changing eating habits and aerobic exercise are not shifting the weight. See previous example of uncontrolled diabetes, where fat buildup is going to occur, from virtually any food containing natural sugars or starches. Fruit, vegetables, pasta, bread, all will contribute to fat buildup due to the severely malfunctioning bodily energy distribution system.

This is why it is last ditch. The person’s head is in the right place, they are really trying, but their body is not responding. So the surgery is used to alter the digestive process, and additional lipo to suck out large amounts of the existing fat buildup, when the fat buildup has reached extreme levels.

It won’t help forever, but it gives breathing space.

Actually, the medicine they give you for diabetes causes weight gain themselves. You are being slammed with being overweight and the doctor telling you to lose weight while taking medicine that causes you to gain weight.

My nephew was on TV awhile back for losing almost 300 lbs using a lapband.

 
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Originally posted by thepunisher52:

When it comes to fat, I think I am lucky and unluck y at the same time.
Lucky because I lose it very quickly and unlucky because when I lose it, my belly bulges out for some reason.

Have your Thyroid gland checked. you can try checking it yourself by putting your thumb and forefinger on either side of your throat and swallowing. If you feel a lump it is enlarged, but that is only one thing that can happen with it.

 
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Insulin won’t cause weight gain unless you are eating too much. So in this instance, its your own idiotic fault for trying to stuff the calories in and not trying to manage your condition.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:


Back to obesity, what makes me furious is the deliberate mystification of it by corporate interests and obese apologists themselves. Calories in, calories out. Unless there are other complicating factors, it is a simple process. People don’t run on rainbows and glitter, or the power of hope. If you burn more calories then you consume, you will drop weight. Or you’re magic.

Nice but burning more calories than you consume is not as easy as you make it sound. Sure for some people it is, but for many it is not.
On the intake side. There are various reasons why people eat more than they should and why they eat the wrong things. As VikaTae already pointed out some people are not able to quit smoking since it became their primary from of stress relief. Same goes very often for people with bad eating habits and it partially goes a step further because it can not only be form of stress relief in a stressful life but also a from of instant but temporal gratification(happiness). In the life of Person who does not have many other sources for regular doses of Happiness not something that can be easily given up.

On the output side you have pain and discomfort that gets stronger the fatter and/or less fit a person becomes. A small overweight person is already around 5-10 kilos to heavy for whats best for them. Constantly carrying around such a weight already makes a difference, real obesity starts after that with people easily being 30 kilos or more to heavy. At this point moving around is usually not a lot of fun in-itself and anything that resembles a decent workout is likely to be painful.

Now some people believe that Willpower can easily fix this. But humans don´t have ready supplies of willpower lying around. Instead complex psychological systems guide and regulate how and when desires generate willpower and how and when this willpower gets spent. Changing such systems, especially if they have been reinforced by years of practice and are now locked-down by the negative effects of being overweight is not easy.

As such ERP89 is pretty much on the mark when saying:

Originally posted by EPR89:

The old “Psychological illnesses are not illnesses but stupidity and stubborness and can easily be changed!!!1” argument.
Oh how I missed seeing this one.

Though in this case we don´t have psychological illnesses in the stricter sense(aka due to a chemical imbalance of the brain or hormone system). But rather an illness of the psychological system that has practically been educated/trained to act in a self hindering/damaging way.
Thats why the average seriously overweight Person usually fails when he or she decides to become(or try to) less fat, without a serious lasting emotional trigger or life changing event as a cause(and even with such success is not guaranteed). This is because most actions the Person can take to reduce their weight go against their system and do have the ability to change it.
A slightly over or relatively normal weight Person trying to lose a couple pounds has it a lot easier because many actions available to him are not only less painful/discomforting but many times bring a great plus on positive feelings. For example exercise actually generally feels really enjoyable for such people. This is partly due to the chemicals that the body puts out during exercise. This also happens to fat people. But its very likely that an fat person will overall feel more negative feelings than positive ones in total after such a exercise. They are far more likely to go way over their limit and the situational high that one feels just does not last as long as the muscle pains.(very often the fat person will use food(=happiness) either to dampen the pain and/or as a reward. Which just means that the added outtake is (over)compensated by an added intake).

Since i already created a wall of text i am going to stop here.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

But its very likely that an fat person will overall feel more negative feelings than positive ones in total after such a exercise. They are far more likely to go way over their limit and the situational high that one feels just does not last as long as the muscle pains.(very often the fat person will use food(=happiness) either to dampen the pain and/or as a reward. Which just means that the added outtake is (over)compensated by an added intake).

On the plus side, even if they do this, each time they try, they will strengthen their muscles, and their lungs a little bit (providing as Johnny said, they don’t push too far, too fast). This will counteract some of the negative health effects of their obesity, and make the exercise very slightly easier the next time.

Even if they eat as a self-congratulatory reward afterwards, if the exercise becomes a daily thing, they will improve in overall health. It will take a long time to see noticable results, but it does occur.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

But its very likely that an fat person will overall feel more negative feelings than positive ones in total after such a exercise. They are far more likely to go way over their limit and the situational high that one feels just does not last as long as the muscle pains.(very often the fat person will use food(=happiness) either to dampen the pain and/or as a reward. Which just means that the added outtake is (over)compensated by an added intake).

On the plus side, even if they do this, each time they try, they will strengthen their muscles, and their lungs a little bit (providing as Johnny said, they don’t push too far, too fast). This will counteract some of the negative health effects of their obesity, and make the exercise very slightly easier the next time.

Even if they eat as a self-congratulatory reward afterwards, if the exercise becomes a daily thing, they will improve in overall health. It will take a long time to see noticable results, but it does occur.

Yes indeed, but it takes quite a time to notice this effect and its not that noticeable even then for the Person in question. The motivational desire behind the exercise is losing weight and if the desire is not satisfied but even disappointed it will likely lead to the person losing motivation. And at the point where the person reduces their exercise their higher calorie intake will not diminish equally.
On another note not pushing to far too fast is really hard for seriously overweight people, because generally the hardest step is the first step. Getting out of the house(or even off the seat/out of bed) and starting usually takes more motivation than the actual activity after wards(unless the activity itself is really hated). But even though it takes such high motivation to take the first step, the first step if taken does not actually take away/diminish the motivation but actually increases it. So you get a person that after taking the first step is highly motivate to make up for lost time.

To get best results in changing behavior consistently(aka changing the system) its important to find an exercising activity that is so highly enjoyable in itself for the person that losing weight / getting fitter gets pushed back so that its not even a secondary consideration. Not that easy but if done very promising.
In terms of food intake again the most important thing is to find a easily achievable readily available activity/habit that gives happiness which can replace food intake as systematical/habitual reward and source of happiness.(Just please not smoking or drinking alcohol). A 2nd rate replacement here are non-calorie chewing gums and the like. 2nd rate because they still work orally. Thus stabilizing a high oral desire which needs satisfaction. A desire that is often stilled with food or smoking when the gums are not around. On the other hand working orally helps quite a bit in regards to possibly replacing food intake as reward.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

To get best results in changing behavior consistently(aka changing the system) its important to find an exercising activity that is so highly enjoyable in itself for the person that losing weight / getting fitter gets pushed back so that its not even a secondary consideration. Not that easy but if done very promising.

Ys, this is why I would prefer more exercise schemes under the umbrella of the NHS. There are some specialist physio exercise classes that run for 4-5 weeks then stop, and we can give referrals to private gyms with qualified disability professionals to subsidise the cost of attendance for… 12 weeks I think it is. after that they’re on their own.

Given the staggering cost of private gyms, for someone who is of poor fitness and struggling anyway, its no wonder that so many give in after the referral limit is reached. We need something in-between the subsidised weeks and full private gym meembership, so we can keep that motivation going by not pricing it out of their reach.

In terms of food intake again the most important thing is to find a easily achievable readily available activity/habit that gives happiness which can replace food intake as systematical/habitual reward and source of happiness.(Just please not smoking or drinking alcohol).

A 2nd rate replacement here are non-calorie chewing gums and the like. 2nd rate because they still work orally. Thus stabilizing a high oral desire which needs satisfaction. A desire that is often stilled with food or smoking when the gums are not around. On the other hand working orally helps quite a bit in regards to possibly replacing food intake as reward.

Dropping back into my core expertise area, there have been a few experiments with artificial taste systems. Keep the food vector as-is. They’re consuming the foods for the taste anyway. Just take the actual food out of the equation.

We’re nowhere near ready for prime-time yet, as smell’s still a huge hurdle, but a chewable interface that can go from tasting like dry cracker to soft, wet jelly and back again was prototyped a good ten years back. It would be one avenue to pursue for the future. Calorie free ‘food’ that fills the habitual void.

Other than probable-future stuff, I am very leery of any ‘solution’ that relies on getting them hooked on the path to another addiction, of any type. You are just replacing one problem with another.

 
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…its important to find an exercising activity that is so highly enjoyable in itself for the person that losing weight / getting fitter gets pushed back so that its not even a secondary consideration…

I cannot think of a single exercise-thing which is both enjoyable and accessible at-will; and I somewhat doubt one exists.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

I cannot think of a single exercise-thing which is both enjoyable and accessible at-will; and I somewhat doubt one exists.

Well, sex springs to mind, for starters. Its not accessible at will that matters, but regular exercise. In other words, being willing to do it again and again and again, without much prompting.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:
…its important to find an exercising activity that is so highly enjoyable in itself for the person that losing weight / getting fitter gets pushed back so that its not even a secondary consideration…

I cannot think of a single exercise-thing which is both enjoyable and accessible at-will; and I somewhat doubt one exists.

Utter bullshit.
When weather conditions allow, my wife & I do one of the most simple forms of exercising…WE WALK.
AND, we find great joy in doing it.
We use the time to have great conversations,,,
to look around the neighborhood and see what our neighbors’ gardening efforts, house maintenance, seasonal decorations, etc. are. Should a neighbor be out side….it’s a great opportunity to—at the very least—“connect”,,,either by just waving and/or shouting out a simple hello (w/ maybe an attached: great looking lawn). It also affords us an opportunity to gather the 3 or 4 newspapers lying in the driveway—a sure indication the owners aren’t at home for an extended time—and either take them home w/ us or stash them somewhere not visible from the street. We prefer to take them home cuz criminals will be door-knocking the neighborhood to see who is away….esp. during the holiday weekends, etc.

One doesn’t have to go fast-n-far-n-for long in their walking…at least upon starting this activity. JUST GET STARTED,,,,those 3 will soon develop.

NOW, on this crap about exercising being a drudgery. Upon attaining a particular level of fitness, most bodies actually begin to jones for for exercising. The body knows what it needs and will let the brain know it.

Speaking of body talking to brain,,, eating the wrong foods fail to have nutrients that will tell the brain that it can stop the eating process. Junk food is just that: JUNK for the body….empty calories. The bad thing about them, however….is that they usually taste soooooo damn good.

One of the reasons for this is that we TASTE (buds) only 4 things: sweet, sour, bitter, and SALT. Just look at the nutritional label on what is considered even healthy food. A can of Campbell soup is loaded w/ salt. Processed food manufactures “spike” their foods w/ salt (easily hidden from “taste”. It’s the nose that differentiates actually tastes. By fooling the nose w/ increased levels of salt….we believe that products tastes even better.

Hydrogenated oils were developed to increase shelf-life for food products. But, they are horrible for the body. They cause weight gain: they are fats and they cause hunger. Be a label reader. See what the first listed ingredients are.

You’ll find high fructose corn syrup right up there near the top. AND, we become “addicted” to these unhealthy foods. Unable to slake hunger,,only a crammed-full belly will do this,,,we continue to eat, eat, eat….usually potato chips and Ding Dongs.

AND, junk food is cheap. Junk food is pushed…HARD…in commercials and grocery ads in the newpaper. On your next trip to a fast-food restaurant, ask for the nutritional facts sheet…by law they are supposed to have it. Read what their food has in the way of RDI’s how much of your “daily” ya’re eating in that one meal. As Ungeziefer points out: calories in, calories out (burned) and the imbalance of them is what caused weight gain/loss.

BUT, just as well all know: money in checking account…money out of checking account. We also know this simple calories mantra. But, the deck is stacked against us when it comes to processed foods….JUST READ THE LABELS.

Stay basic…eat fresh fruit & vegetables, etc.
Become an amateur nutritionist.
Exercise in whatever manner that is enjoyable and effective.
planet fitness is sweeping the country as a hugely effective health fitness center. They have a 30 minute workout zone for the basic muscle groups and different cardio-machines and tons of TV’s to watch while using them.
At 33 cents a day, even those who have income issues can’t bitch.

Most ppl don’t CHOOSE to be “fat”.
It happens for a very large numbers of reasons.
Lighten the fuck up on these individuals….
they usually are in their own hell as it already is.
Be positive and supportive and informative about health issues.
To do otherwise is merely nurturing your own hateful biases.

 
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I have to agree about the walking. Several years ago I ruptured my achilles tendon, and I gave up driving. I wasn’t grossly overweight, but was becoming decidedly portly. For anywhere closer than a couple of miles I walked. I never gave weight loss a thought, until a year or so later I noticed my trousers were becoming dangerously loose around the waist. I knew pretty much what I weighed previously, so I checked again and found I had lost around 35/40 pounds and 4 inches off my waist. I was rather smug about doing it so effortlessly, knowing that there are thousands of women out there who would kill to be able to do the same. And I saved a small fortune in car expenses.

So a little light exercise in small doses over a long period does work for some. And there’s no overwhelming desire to pig out afterwards, as a lot of weight watchers admit to doing.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by Captain_Catface:
…its important to find an exercising activity that is so highly enjoyable in itself for the person that losing weight / getting fitter gets pushed back so that its not even a secondary consideration…

I cannot think of a single exercise-thing which is both enjoyable and accessible at-will; and I somewhat doubt one exists.

Utter bullshit.
When weather conditions allow, my wife & I do one of the most simple forms of exercising…WE WALK.
AND, we find great joy in doing it.

One doesn’t have to go fast-n-far-n-for long in their walking…at least upon starting this activity. JUST GET STARTED,,,,those 3 will soon develop.

NOW, on this crap about exercising being a drudgery. Upon attaining a particular level of fitness, most bodies actually begin to jones for for exercising. The body knows what it needs and will let the brain know it.

Partially wrong and partially right. I have been up to 150 kilos. At that point (and actually way before at 120) walking was certainly not enjoyable and that was even though i was a fitness fanatic before that slump in my life and now am again after that slump.

Luckily Vika is totally right, it´s not the readily accessible that is important. Its the desire to do it again and again. And even for Fat people there is a lot off stuff they can do thats really fun(searching and finding them is the hard part).
Quite frankly this generally excludes most fitness centers for fat people.Because they usually don´t go there to have fun but to torture themselves(in an environment filled with lots of relatively good looking and fit people who are actually having fun).
Much better are social group activities where fun is first place (and not training for success or fitness). Such groups are not always easy to find, but do actually exist in large numbers in most urban areas.

Edit: Some fitness centers actually over courses where a group activity is preformed. Sadly those fitness centers cost more and commonly charge extra for such course. While the more common low cost fit-centers actually target fat people as the unseen pay for the rest members. Since they generally turn up for a month or two a year but never get around to canceling their contracts.

 
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It’s not very hard for someone to lose that much weight. 90% of weight loss is diet, people.

Right now, I am on a cut diet for the next 3-4 months. I lowered my caloric intake to 2300 per day, and am taking in only about 320 grams of protein a day. Though it is hard to want to eat, I eat all of that in one sitting and hold off until the next day. Right now I’m at 17% body fat (This is after a bulking diet) and I should drop to about 10% with this diet. Then I pick up a bulking diet to go crazy on my muscle mass, and get anywhere from 15-18% body fat. Then I throw on another cut diet to lose that fat. It’s probably one of the most effective routines to do. It’s for people who want to get big, and get really big.

All you have to do is cut unnecessary aspects from your diets, steer away from foods that taste good because they are sweets, and put some intense cardio AND lifting into your routines. Lift every other day, then do cardio on your off days. Lifting helps you lose weight very easily. Though I may be on a cutting diet right now, I have to continue to lift (Just not as crazily as I was on my bulk diet) to maintain muscle mass / strength as well as to help burn off some fat easier.

 
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Minor corrections, just pointing out very minor factual errors, Karma.

One of the reasons for this is that we TASTE (buds) only 4 things: sweet, sour, bitter, and SALT.

Five. Five main sensations on the tongue.

Salt, Bitter, Sour, Sweet, Umami.

there could possibly be six sensations; there is some evidence fat has its own taste receptors at the back of the tongue. But with 3,000-4,000 actual individual receptors, there are bound to be other minor variations and specialisations.

It’s the nose that differentiates actually tastes. By fooling the nose w/ increased levels of salt….we believe that products tastes even better.

It doesn’t differentiate tastes so much as differentiate the smells. Most of the sensation of our food is scent, not taste. As you point out, get the scent right ,and the meal markedly improves. Hence the old trick of using heavy spices to mask bad meat.

You’ll find high fructose corn syrup right up there near the top.

Fructose isn’t actually bad for you. Its one of the basic sugars, usually found in fruit. It’s when you have too much of any sugar, that problems occur. Too much starch all at once will give the same problems, for the same reasons.


Beauval:

I was rather smug about doing it so effortlessly, knowing that there are thousands of women out there who would kill to be able to do the same.

One of the curses of female hormones. It is much harder to lose weight than to put it on. Your estrogen is actively working against you there.

 
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Originally posted by rwbstripes:

It’s not very hard for someone to lose that much weight. 90% of weight loss is diet, people.

Thats like me telling other people (especially children in math class) that math is not very hard. 90% of its solving puzzles like sudoku.

Fact is that (if I get the rest of your post right) you find your activity (aka Diet and workout routines) enjoyable. Just as i can find math enjoyable. Thats great for you but that only makes it easy for you and not the rest who don´t have the same feelings towards diets and working out.