Obesity apologist page 6

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Originally posted by beauval:

They need educating. They need to be taught how to deal with the cheapest cuts of meat and how to make vegetables interesting. They need to learn some basic stuff about nutrition so they can begin to make informed choices about what they eat.

In my experience most fat people know a lot about food, cooking, nutrition, diets and which sports/activities are good for weight control. Its the application of the knowledge thats the problem for most of them. For various reasons they don´t apply their knowledge, instead habits and emotions rule how and why they act.
And this where the real education has to set in. People need to know how they can change/what they must do to change their habits. There is a serious lack of understanding here, with a lot of false information being spread about.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

i suspect you would say that i was saying overweight issues are largely due to habit, and that that means i am overlooking those handful of people that have a proper diet and are still obese. but again, then explain this to me. ethno-genetics? climate? no. it’s cultural habits. you can help your habits, and you can adress cultural problems. hiding behind it is weak.

And you seem to underestimate how hard it is to change habits, especially ones being culturally reinforced. (at least thats what i get from the “all these excuses are weak” and “hiding behind it”(habits?/genetics?)

Most fat people have abusive and addicted behavior towards food. It is already very hard for people who are addicted and show an abusive behavior to stuff like alcohol, smoking and other drugs to come clean. But for food its much harder for various reasons.

One reason is that its impossible to stay clean. With the possible exception of IV drips, you can´t continue eating nothing for long. Because unlike alcohol and smoking the body needs food to function. So there is no practical way to avoid direct contact. And even indirect contact/exposure is much higher(indirect exposure means things like witnessing other people enjoy the vice, advertising for the vice or otherwise handling the vice).
A other reason is that there are two measurements for victory that don´t work well together. The goal of most people trying quit a vice is not to actually to stop doing the vice but to avoid negative results of the vice. While not eating X on day X can be felt as a victory if that victory does not show the desired results(weight loss) it will be questioned. Sadly human biology reacts in various ways that are contra productive to this measurement system. So that the desired results may not show up fast enough.

Now its still possible for people to change habits and as such people certainly have the responsibility. But most people lack the knowledge and experience to guarantee success in this endeavor. Instead they can only rely on getting lucky with a good chance of making things worse.

 
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Because we’ve pointed out again and again how there are complex issues behind obesity. Each time you’ve looked at our issues, and said basically:

“[they’re] outside of the norm so fuck [them]”

and ranted on again at how it is all entirely the obese individual’s own fault. Evidence to the contrary is inconvenient, so you just dismiss it.

but again, then explain this to me. ethno-genetics? climate?

A large number of causative factors, including ruthless corporate manipulation of human psychology, an economic recession promoting cheap food, and high energy density foods created by our own civilisation, which the body was never intended to handle. But then we’ve explained all this in the previous pages of the thread, and it did no good.

 
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And you seem to underestimate how hard it is to change habits, especially ones being culturally reinforced. (at least thats what i get from the “all these excuses are weak” and “hiding behind it”(habits?/genetics?)

Most fat people have abusive and addicted behavior towards food. It is already very hard for people who are addicted and show an abusive behavior to stuff like alcohol, smoking and other drugs to come clean. But for food its much harder for various reasons.

One reason is that its impossible to stay clean. With the possible exception of IV drips, you can´t continue eating nothing for long. Because unlike alcohol and smoking the body needs food to function. So there is no practical way to avoid direct contact. And even indirect contact/exposure is much higher(indirect exposure means things like witnessing other people enjoy the vice, advertising for the vice or otherwise handling the vice).
A other reason is that there are two measurements for victory that don´t work well together. The goal of most people trying quit a vice is not to actually to stop doing the vice but to avoid negative results of the vice. While not eating X on day X can be felt as a victory if that victory does not show the desired results(weight loss) it will be questioned. Sadly human biology reacts in various ways that are contra productive to this measurement system. So that the desired results may not show up fast enough.

alright, i’ll take that. i never said it’s easy, so thanks for explaining why it’s hard. but this doesn’t disagree with anything i said. this puts in on habits, and looks into these habits, which is just what i would suggest doing.

Because we’ve pointed out again and again how there are complex issues behind obesity. Each time you’ve looked at our issues, and said basically:

“[they’re] outside of the norm so fuck [them]”
and ranted on again at how it is all entirely the obese individual’s own fault. Evidence to the contrary is inconvenint, so you just dismiss it.

then you’ve totally misinterpreted what i’ve said. all of these issues behind obesity are all issues behind obesity. i don’t see how you can’t get that this is simply not relevant to people that are not obese and not at risk of ever being obese.

i’ve said roughly two things. 1. overweight is largely because of habits, not just because of physical conditions. which i simply said because it’s true, i’m just explaining how it works. 2. i’ve complained about the “calories!” issue. i’ve questioned the theory for possibly being simplistic, and i’ve complained about how information or perceptions and attitudes on food is commonly geared only towards the need to lose weight, thereby treating people like a generalised stat which they just aren’t, which i always oppose doing because doing so is just bad…better is to just be properly informative so individuals can figure out how that relates to their individual position, rather than just perpetuating a simplified generalisation that is detrimental to anyone falling outside of the majority.

that does not mean i dismiss any of the arguments about the difficulties of losing weight or all that Jazz. it just doesn’t counter point #1, because all those reasons still don’t mean it’s not habit, and therefor still does not mean it would be sensible (it would be a cop out) to just explain it away as physiological conditions or culture, not because those aren’t true, but because the first is only a small part and the second can be adressed. and for ponit #2 it’s just completely irrelevant, because it could only be the self-importance of the majority for their own foolishness (as per point #1) over anyone else, which is just plain dickishness.

A large number of causative factors, including ruthless corporate manipulation of human psychology, an economic recession promoting cheap food, and high energy density foods created by our own civilisation, which the body was never intended to handle. But then we’ve explained all this in the previous pages of the thread, and it did no good.

that doesn’t even begin to explain why America has over 6 times the obesity of Japan and over 3 times the obesity of central Europe.

 
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Omega, on the topic of responsibly maximizing calories that is a plight for most serious body builders. I believe the one on here before (I forget his handle) had referenced that in passing. I have some family that used to professionally lift.

For them they are interested both in taking in a great deal more calories to fuel all the extra work they’re doing, and maximizing protein for muscle gain. Most do lean cuts of meat, absurd amounts of pasta, tons of eggs, tons of dairy and dairy products. My family member in question would have about a liter of shake (milk, whey powder, three eggs), about a liter of cottage cheese, and about a liter of red river cereal. Hitting about as much calories as most people eat a day just in breakfast, and probably pulling 200-300g of protein.

The simple solution to increasing calorie loads is to eat more. If it calories your body needs your appetite should be elevated to match it (mostly). This also increases your intake of vitamins, proteins and the like. Junk-Food is typically mostly fat or sugar, both rich in calories but rarely coupled with much nutrient value. Or even essential oils.

that doesn’t even begin to explain why America has over 6 times the obesity of Japan and over 3 times the obesity of central Europe.

I think it sort of does. Narrowing down to Japan. You have a very different corporate relationship to food and food preparation. The traditional japanese diet used to be very lean, with time it is becoming more “americanized” and their obesity rate is starting to clime. Even the fast food joints, like MacDonalds have wildly different portion sizes then that of North America. They are also stigmatize obesity a fair bit more then we do. It’s a different culture, with different eating habits, I see that as the primary source for the difference.

 
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right. well, i don’t even want to know the cholesterol of such body-builders, but there’s something of an example.

and yes, Japan has that much less obesity because of different habits, which is exactly my point.

edit: how did i forget?:

The simple solution to increasing calorie loads is to eat more. If it calories your body needs your appetite should be elevated to match it (mostly). This also increases your intake of vitamins, proteins and the like. Junk-Food is typically mostly fat or sugar, both rich in calories but rarely coupled with much nutrient value. Or even essential oils.

eating more vegetables or meat isn’t going to cut it, like i’ve been saying all the time. the stomach has a limit, and that limit does not suffice to get your calory intake from vegetables and meat. you need high calory foods. and yes, you’re right about junk-food, like vika has been saying all this time, is empty calories. but not all high calory foods are bad, so you need to learn how to get your high calories responsibly. (at least, if it is all about the calories…)

why do i have to keep repeating myself god damnit! i’ve taken the habit of eating roasted almost almonds for the past couple of years, which has about 7000 kcal/kg, which is over 7 times more than any vegetables, and even above any kind of junk-food, and is also quite nutritious.

so yes, you all keep repeating my exact point, while denying the point and coming with conclusions based on YOUR habits and calory needs, and then accuse me of ignoring you, while it’s really the other way around.

and it’s not just some freaky out-group with a “disability”. the amount of people with a natural propensity to be skinny is exactly as high as the amount of people with a natural propensity to be fat. the rest is culture.

 
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@ Johnny

Now that was an interesting and somewhat unexpected comment. Do we have the same groups of people in mind? I wasn’t referencing bored middle class housewives who comfort-eat vast quantities of chocolates, crisps and cream cakes because they are frustrated and lonely, but really ought to know better. I was thinking more about those at the bottom of the pile, often with low intelligence, poor education, and a crappy job or no job at all, often through choice. I’m acquainted with a young man who seems to believe that a daily diet of fried anything and chips, supplemented with an occasional banana, is a balanced diet. In his mind that banana wipes away all the sins of the deep fryer. Are you saying that such people really do understand the damage they are doing to themselves, but can’t be bothered to do anything about it? I found that very surprising.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

Are you saying that such people really do understand the damage they are doing to themselves, but can’t be bothered to do anything about it? I found that very surprising.

I was talking about a majority of the fat people. This does include many of the people on the lower rungs of society, but there certainly are people as you describe them too.

Yes this means that the majority knows what damage they are doing to themselves. But they blend it out or otherwise negate their knowledge. One common reaction to such knowledge that they are doing harm to themselves is to eat more to balance the dissatisfaction of knowing by the pleasure(bliss) of eating.
Fact is most fat people have a long history of trying to get less fat. The problem is not that they can´t be bothered to do anything about it. Its that they have tried a lot of stuff and gained a lot of food knowledge on the way but have experienced an on set of failures.
This experience has heavily fortified their behavior systems to change regarding eating habits. These people know that their habits are wrong, but they don´t know why their habits exist. And while their desire to change is still there, they don´t know how to change their systems. As it is one or the other gets lucky when trying. Mostly due to an exceptional event(f.e. break up with a girl friend) or finding a personal individual habit that replaces part of the eating habits.

Many experience so many failures that they try to ignore their desire to become less fat, because they have lost hope and do not believe that they personally and individually can be successful.
This is where you will find most fat people at, high desire to lose weight, low hope/belief that it will work for them individually, high knowledge of food and dieting systems, but low knowledge about the psychological causes for their eating habits and even less knowledge about how to change their psychological system in regards to food.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

…eating more vegetables or meat isn’t going to cut it, like i’ve been saying all the time. the stomach has a limit, and that limit does not suffice to get your calory intake from vegetables and meat. you need high calory foods. and yes, you’re right about junk-food, like vika has been saying all this time, is empty calories. but not all high calory foods are bad, so you need to learn how to get your high calories responsibly. (at least, if it is all about the calories…)

“In adult humans, the stomach has a relaxed, near empty volume of about 45 ml. Because it is a distensible organ, it normally expands to hold about one litre of food, but can hold as much as two to three litres.” – wiki (but I can’t see them being too far off the mark).

As mentioned previously, my base metabolic rate is circa 2,000 cal/day…

Breakfast: Cereal, Milk (200ml), Fruit juice(100ml): ~250 cal
Snack: Fruit (banana): ~100 cal
Lunch: 4 slices bread, ham, salad, butter(10g): ~500 cal
Snack: Milkshake (200ml): ~200 cal
Dinner: Pork chop, mashed potatoes, peas, carrots, gravy: ~900cal

What are we up to already? something like 1950 cals… not accounting for things like milk in tea and coffee, any dessert after dinner, etc…

So yeah, I’d have to say it’s perfectly feasible for MOST to achieve their daily calorific requirement through ‘meat and vegetables’ – by which I mean ‘normal’ rather than fast foods without resorting to junk food / empty calories – without ‘exploding’ their stomach…

Edit: Base metabolic rate – the amount of energy required to ‘run’ the body at rest… calorific requirements will increase with activity levels, etc… even so, it should be easily possible to consume 3… 4… thousand calories without difficulty and without resorting to empty calories.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

This thread hasn’t yet has introduced the vast area of herbal foods and vitamin//mineral supplements as health aids. Health food stores

Karma, I take it you don’t do the shopping or the cooking in your household.

LOL….actually, I DO. At least, it is a very shared endeavor w/ my wife. It’s just the two of us and since we “eat healthy”….shopping & food preparation is limited & quite easy to do. ALL of the veggies & fruits are fresh…the only meat we eat is turkey (cubed & usually on the salads)…we drink non-fat milk, low-cal yougurt & pudding cups.

Many of the people who are unnecessarily fat are at the bottom of society’s heap. They have neither the time nor the money to think about whether to supplement the kids’ cornflakes with pumpkin seeds or flax seeds this week. They know nothing of fish oil or dried cranberries, and wouldn’t know an antioxidant if it bit them on the arse. They’re too busy wondering whether to have burgers or Kentucky fried with their chips, because the kids are sick of stew, which is the only decent meal they have ever learnt to cook.

I’d tend to agree on a lot of this…to varying degrees on (but not even limited to) each of the things ya mention….invoking my “bell curve concept” here.
They need educating. They need to be taught how to deal with the cheapest cuts of meat and how to make vegetables interesting. They need to learn some basic stuff about nutrition so they can begin to make informed choices about what they eat.

OH…ABSOLUTELY
Education is the key here….I know vika is a huge proponent of education on issues like this. I well imagine others here are, also. I just can’t recall who they are (ATM).

NOW, let’s talk about why this “education” factor seems to be either absent or ineffective or a combination of the two. Yeah, I know…I’m taking about that shitty "nanny govt. crap. BUT, who is best placed to widely present a comprehensive, yet basic & advanced, amount of information to its public? OR, at the very least, tell the populace when to find it and greatly encourage them to do it.

HOWEVER, in an effort to toss the “anti-govt.” guys a bone, I have some strong suspecions that the junk//fast food industry, shitty diet programs companies, expensive exercise equipment vendors,(maybe even health insurance companies?), etc. have some very powerful lobbiests. All of this (money?) tends to influence those Congresspersons.

I agree on being a label reader. Or better still in many cases, if it’s got a label don’t buy it.

YUP.
If it has a label…it is processed.
Processed usually indicates a (huge?) negative for that food.

Chances are that you could cook the same thing better and cheaper yourself, if only you knew how to. Half a dozen companies have made a profit out of that tin of irish stew on the supermarket shelf. You need the money more than they do, so learn how to make it yourself. It’ll be fresher and tastier, and you’ll get more food on your plate for the same amount of money. And labels don’t always tell the whole truth. I don’t know whether you are familiar with this clip, but it’s a bit of an eye-opener on what the food industry can get away with.

Damy YOU, beauval….there ya go again,,making sense.
We can’t be having THAT.
It tends to ruin American industry.
LOL

 
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What are we up to already? something like 1950 cals… not accounting for things like milk in tea and coffee, any dessert after dinner, etc…

So yeah, I’d have to say it’s perfectly feasible for MOST to achieve their daily calorific requirement through ‘meat and vegetables’ – by which I mean ‘normal’ rather than fast foods without resorting to junk food / empty calories – without ‘exploding’ their stomach…

Edit: Base metabolic rate – the amount of energy required to ‘run’ the body at rest… calorific requirements will increase with activity levels, etc… even so, it should be easily possible to consume 3… 4… thousand calories without difficulty and without resorting to empty calories.

yeah, but 2000 is a pretty low requirement. the average for men is 2500, and should be higher for teens. and that’s just an average. i ate about 10 slices of bread, about 300 gram of chocolate or 400/500 gram of cookies, one piece of fruit, over a liter of fruit juice and exactly 1.5 450 gram instant meal per day, and you could still count ribs for a few years.

and i know at least 4 other people that have or had the same situation, none of whom are related by DNA.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
What are we up to already? something like 1950 cals… not accounting for things like milk in tea and coffee, any dessert after dinner, etc…

So yeah, I’d have to say it’s perfectly feasible for MOST to achieve their daily calorific requirement through ‘meat and vegetables’ – by which I mean ‘normal’ rather than fast foods without resorting to junk food / empty calories – without ‘exploding’ their stomach…

Edit: Base metabolic rate – the amount of energy required to ‘run’ the body at rest… calorific requirements will increase with activity levels, etc… even so, it should be easily possible to consume 3… 4… thousand calories without difficulty and without resorting to empty calories.

yeah, but 2000 is a pretty low requirement. the average for men is 2500, and should be higher for teens. and that’s just an average. i ate about 10 slices of bread, about 300 gram of chocolate or 400/500 gram of cookies, one piece of fruit, over a liter of fruit juice and exactly 1.5 450 gram instant meal per day, and you could still count ribs for a few years.

and i know at least 4 other people that have or had the same situation, none of whom are related by DNA.

2000 base, is quite high actually… when we factor in exercise and work I work out to around 2600 / day (to maintain my current weight).

Yes, it might be higher – SLIGHTLY – for a teenager (in fact the calculator I used, changing only the age, put on an extra 150 cals… or 5.7%) but that’s not the point I addressed above. You said it was, in precis, impossible to meet these sort of calorie requirements without resorting to empty calories…(unless I misunderstood your meaning?) which, as demonstrated above, is blatantly untrue.

 
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well that seems wrong. in my experience, teenagers need to eat like 50% more than adults. (at least using the modern definition of teenager)

and it’s only an average. then you gotta consider a bell curve, with 15% having a much higher need, and 15% a much lower need. and lets not just treat the latter 15% as an important group to focus on, and the previous 15% group as an unimportant fringe that needs their heads filled with stuff that is irrelevant and counter-productive to them, slap “disabled” on them, and tell them to go a dietrist as if not being fat makes someone some kind of freak.

instead of making it a one-sided affair, why not be informative and balanced, like we do with any other subject.

 
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Nice to see your own personal biases coming to the fore, Omega.

slap “disabled” on them, and tell them to go a dietrist as if not being fat makes someone some kind of freak.

Where the hell do you get the idea that having a disability makes you ‘some kind of freak’? Where do you get the idea that it is freakish to have individual health needs, that require careful balance to get right?

 
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well that’s kinda how you’re portraying it. ok maybe a little sardonic, but you used the term “disabled” to pass us off as a special needs out of the norm group that common attitudes or information shouldn’t cater, and should just be completely overlooked for servicing the overweight or at risk of overweight majority.

i’m not overweight, i never will be, in fact i had to struggle weight the other way like plenty of people, i don’t need to get extra gymclasses as diet camp, i don’t need repeated health advices telling me what not to eat mostly (but not always) based on what makes it good not bad (for me), etc.

if you have issues keeping your weight down, you deal with it, but leave me out of it, because i am doing the opposite. i don’t bother you with my weight gain, you don’t bother me with your weight loss.

and yet i get bothered, treated as a generalised stat, and i hate it. there have been people looking me straight in the face and advicing me what to not eat because it’s “unhealthy” and then i dig around and they either don’t even know if they mean “unhealthy” to mean “high calories” or because it’s actually unhealthy; or they just knowingly mean it’s high calorie, and then either way i have to explain to them that my skinny appeal is not a trick of the light, but i’m actually skinny, so that means i don’t need to lose weight, and then they still don’t get it, assuming that i’m only skinny because i’m good at eating “healthy” or something, not even realising that it is not universal.

that ignorance is just annoying, and still you have the nerve to call me ignorant, simply because i represent a minority side that’s not yours, and that i think you wish to ignore because of misplaced jealousy.

 
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I can’t say I’m always good with what I eat, but I definitely care what I look like. I make sure to have meat, grains, and fruit. :]

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

well that’s kinda how you’re portraying it. ok maybe a little sardonic, but you used the term “disabled” to pass us off as a special needs out of the norm group that common attitudes or information shouldn’t cater, and should just be completely overlooked for servicing the overweight or at risk of overweight majority.

No, I used the term disabled, to refer to people who are lacking in physical ability compared to others.

Those who physically cannot manage their daily calorific intake without resorting to empty foods that are nothing but energy, have a digestion disability. Most likely they are not properly processing sugars. Not bad enough to qualify as diabetic, but still not functioning properly. So, we need to find out why that is on an individual basis, and address it.

That’s all I was saying. There is a disability present, and it needs to be corrected so they can enjoy a balanced diet, without having to rely on sweets and junk food to make it through their day. Our bodies simply don’t need that stuff. We never evolved hunting processed foods and super energy rich concentrates. We survive just fine on a balanced diet. These things are purely optional extras, unnecessary in the normal course of things unless there’s a disability present.

i’m not overweight, i never will be, in fact i had to struggle weight the other way like plenty of people, i don’t need to get extra gymclasses as diet camp, i don’t need repeated health advices telling me what not to eat mostly (but not always) based on what makes it good not bad (for me), etc.

Just because you’re not overweight, doesn’t mean you are fit. Extra gym sessions are good for you, regardless of your weight. They’ll help tone your body and keep it in optimum shape.

and yet i get bothered, treated as a generalised stat, and i hate it. there have been people looking me straight in the face and advicing me what to not eat because it’s “unhealthy” and then i dig around and they either don’t even know if they mean “unhealthy” to mean “high calories” or because it’s actually unhealthy; or they just knowingly mean it’s high calorie, and then either way i have to explain to them that my skinny appeal is not a trick of the light, but i’m actually skinny, so that means i don’t need to lose weight, and then they still don’t get it, assuming that i’m only skinny because i’m good at eating “healthy” or something, not even realising that it is not universal.

Welcome to one of the limitations of health. We are not yet at the state where we can give a personalised healthcare service to every individual. If we were, we could state with authority what it would be best for that individual to eat, as far as potions go, any given day. Until we reach that point, general trends are what we go with – unless you see a dietician, who will give you as much of a personalised diet as is currently possible.

that ignorance is just annoying, and still you have the nerve to call me ignorant, simply because i represent a minority side that’s not yours, and that i think you wish to ignore because of misplaced jealousy.

What misplaced jealousy? I weigh 148, Omega. I don’t see that you have anything for me to be jealous of. I used to be a bit flabby, yes. At one point I weighed a depressing 196, but it came down.

I’m calling you ignorant, simply because you’re only thinking of yourself, and not giving a damn about what it might be like for others.

 
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That’s all I was saying. There is a disability present, and it needs to be corrected so they can enjoy a balanced diet, without having to rely on sweets and junk food to make it through their day. Our bodies simply don’t need that stuff. We never evolved hunting processed foods and super energy rich concentrates. We survive just fine on a balanced diet. These things are purely optional extras, unnecessary in the normal course of things unless there’s a disability present.

yeah, and i’ve told you that not all calorie-rich foods are unnatural, processed empty calories that don’t offer anything else we don’t need, we never used to eat and aren’t part of a balanced diet.

fast food has i guess about 3000 to 4000 kcal/kg, and candy has about 5000 kcal/kg, while any kind of nuts have about 7000 kcal/kg, including peanutbutter. other examples would include dairy and wheat products and sausages. the fact that you don’t realise this (despite that i’ve repeated it already, may i add) is the same ignorance that was detrimental to my health as a teenager, so thanks for proving my point.

also, we never evolved hunting cooked food either, but when did you last eat raw liver? the raw organ-meats we used to eat were probably richer in calories than our stripped meat of today.

and i don’t think it’s necessarily a digestive issue, but rather metabolism.

Just because you’re not overweight, doesn’t mean you are fit. Extra gym sessions are good for you, regardless of your weight. They’ll help tone your body and keep it in optimum shape

i walked or cycled about an hour total each day to and from school, with about 20% of my weight in books on my back. i’ll decide if i need more exercise. and still the reason for extra gym in school was not to get teens in shape, but for them to lose weight. that was specifically their purpose with that. i mean…

if a majority of kids in a school are addicted to some drugs (say they had a very succesful pusher), would you force the whole group including those that never used any drugs into rehab?

keep it to whom it applies, or be honest, neutral, balanced and informative.

What misplaced jealousy? I weigh 148, Omega. I don’t see that you have anything for me to be jealous of. I used to be a bit flabby, yes. At one point I weighed a depressing 196, but it came down.

I’m calling you ignorant, simply because you’re only thinking of yourself, and not giving a damn about what it might be like for others.

my bad. i switched from meaning “you” individually, to meaning “you” in a general sense, without giving any indication of doing so. i edited it in a bit carelessly.

but yes i am thinking of myself in this, because…well it’s a bit strong to say i feel attacked by the issue, but i do feel i’m on the defensive. i’m not imposing or trying to impose on other people; other people are imposing on me and i’m complaining about that.

you are the ones being selfish, regardless being a majority.

 
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Not a long post, but I thought germane to the whole conversation.

Edit: And the link was (helps if you include in the post don…)

 
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eating more vegetables or meat isn’t going to cut it, like i’ve been saying all the time. the stomach has a limit, and that limit does not suffice to get your calory intake from vegetables and meat. you need high calory foods. and yes, you’re right about junk-food, like vika has been saying all this time, is empty calories. but not all high calory foods are bad, so you need to learn how to get your high calories responsibly. (at least, if it is all about the calories…)

I feel we’re at crossed ends here, so I’m going to try to be extra succinct. Yes, the stomach has a limit. I disagree that such a limit prevents a reasonable calorie intake based upon meats and vegetables. We could hash out the numbers if you would like. I agree that not all high calorie foods are bad, as your next paragraph points out, nuts are super great. They have a great deal of calories, essential oils, fiber, proteins, and vitamins. They’re plant-eggs, full of all the stuff little plants need. They are a great example of responsible high calorie food.

so yes, you all keep repeating my exact point, while denying the point and coming with conclusions based on YOUR habits and calory needs, and then accuse me of ignoring you, while it’s really the other way around.

I feel we are mostly in agreement. I agree that foods are marketed towards the obese, or those afraid of becoming so. I agree that such marketing is poor, perhaps dishonest representations. I agree that it makes assumptions that do not apply to everyone.

But, I feel that is marketing. One can’t really expect it to have your best interests at heart, let alone your personal best interests. This is yet another example of the personal need to divorce yourself from mass marketing and redirect towards real information and the consequences therein. Which you already seem pretty on board with, great. It seems your school is forcing a program with no personal bearing upon you as well, seems the same idea.

 
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hmm, to be fair i do remember vaguely that they used to say at school that it is about balancing food and you need some of those calorie items as well. i guess an effort to be balanced in information was actually made. guess it didn’t stuck, with anyone.

but i just can’t fit it in to how food is perceived that 100 gram of chocolate or 80 gram of nuts equals an entire dinner in calories. and the common perception is still outta whack and ignorant, so basically they failed.

the “food pyramid” has changed every other year, and is still called “pyramid” even though it isn’t a pyramid. and it’s far too much information to throw at someone, or to use. also there are insistantly repeated government adds pushing you to eat two pieces of fruit per day, which nobody does (give it up already), while at the same time there’s this massive ignorance…

they just fail. if the calories really are that big of a deal, they aught to inform people properly about the energy density, and weight control. that would more properly service both sides rather than the scare tactics and the irrealistic ideals.

and no additional gym class!

 
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pushing you to eat two pieces of fruit per day, which nobody does (give it up already)

Over here (UK) it is 5 per day and some countries aim for 8 or higher. I never understood how people could struggle to hit such a target, but then that could just be me. If I left a load of chocolate bars next to the fruit bowl I’d still pick up a bit of fruit rather than the chocolate when hungry, I just think fruit tastes better than chocolate. Your “nobody does” is a generalisation which is far from true.

they just fail. if the calories really are that big of a deal, they aught to inform people properly about the energy density, and weight control. that would more properly service both sides rather than the scare tactics and the irrealistic ideals.

I do agree with you here though that the current information campaign is a poor one. There is so much talk of calories yet I have seen people surveying “the man on the street” and a large number of people simply don’t know what a calorie is. Scientifically it is the quantity of energy needed to raise 1ml of water by 1 degree kelvin but what does that actually mean to a human body? For all the focus on calories that question is still hard to answer because it varies from person to person (as you say) some people need to keep calories down due to low work-rate, low metabolism or medical problems, others need high calorie diets due to high metabolism, high work-rate and different medical problems.

I was going to a remote research station in the Swiss Alps where it was going to be -10 Celsius on a warm day so I tried to find high energy bars to take with me. I finally found about 3 types of high energy bar in the entire supermarket on an aisle dedicated to food bars, the whole rest of the aisle was “low calorie” and “low carbohydrate” which is the opposite of what I needed, so I see where you are coming from when you say that society seems to be becoming more and more centred around people dieting or people that need society to hold their hand to eat right.

I would rather the government pushed towards teaching people to cook properly and teaching people how to get the most flavour out of fruits and veg. Back when I was at university I met people who didn’t know how to cook a frozen pizza, let alone make one from scratch and others who literally lived off ready meals and instant noodles.

 
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Nobody eats two pieces of fruit a day…eh?
I eat one or two bananas,,,a dozen or so prunes, an apple, grapes, peaches or raspberries in my yogurt, sometimes as many as 3 oranges.
Like I said: FRESH fruits & vegetables.

 
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Over here (UK) it is 5 per day and some countries aim for 8 or higher

no that would be servings of fruit or vegetables. i’m pretty sure they don’t actually advice you to eat 8 pieces of fruit, at least not if they mean appels, oranges, bananas or pears.

I was going to a remote research station in the Swiss Alps where it was going to be -10 Celsius on a warm day so I tried to find high energy bars to take with me. I finally found about 3 types of high energy bar in the entire supermarket on an aisle dedicated to food bars, the whole rest of the aisle was “low calorie” and “low carbohydrate” which is the opposite of what I needed, so I see where you are coming from when you say that society seems to be becoming more and more centred around people dieting or people that need society to hold their hand to eat right.

yes, thank you. that’s exactly what i mean, i basically go through that every day.

Nobody eats two pieces of fruit a day…eh?
I eat one or two bananas,,,a dozen or so prunes, an apple, grapes, peaches or raspberries in my yogurt, sometimes as many as 3 oranges.
Like I said: FRESH fruits & vegetables.

in one day? every average day? wow. you healthfreak! ;P how do you even manage to have them ripe at just the time you need it?

nah but that’s good.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Nobody eats two pieces of fruit a day…eh?
I eat one or two bananas,,,a dozen or so prunes, an apple, grapes, peaches or raspberries in my yogurt, sometimes as many as 3 oranges.

Like I said: FRESH fruits & vegetables.

.
.

Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

in one day? every average day? wow. you healthfreak! ;P how do you even manage to have them ripe at just the time you need it?

LOL…ya are what ya eat.
I guess I’m a “fruit”…eh?

Seriously, processed food is not anyway near as “healthy” for ya as is fresh.
Bananas are the fastest to go bad…..the window for taste (for me) is about three days.
BUT, I live only a mile from two markets….I usually ride my bicycle to get small amounts of produce.

Prunes:can last for weeks on the shelf….days in the fridge after opening.
Apples: can last for weeks in the fridge.
Grapes: several weeks in the fridge.
Yogurt: like most dairy…a week or two.
I toss in the mix a cantaloupe or honeydew as the market has good ones.

I make some damn tasty smoothies…..toss in some almonds.
A little dark chocolate is reputed to have very positive health benefits.
So does red wine…mmmmm-good.

Veggies: I’ll sit down to watch TV w/ carrots, celery, radishes, a bell pepper (eat like an apple…toss the core), etc.,,,,,maybe some light ranch salad dressing to dip ’em in. Likely not,,,it hides the taste too much.

One can actually develop a taste for healthy food….and, the shit food ends up tasting just like THAT: SHIT.

nah but that’s good.

Trust me.
It IS good….if ya wanna be healthy.
The human body is like a fine tuned European auto. If ya put shit fuel in it, ya ain’t gonna putt-putt down the road very well. Sure, while the auto is new…little effect might be noticed. But, shit takes its toll after awhile…..it really accelerates after age 30.

 
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One can actually develop a taste for healthy food….and, the shit food ends up tasting just like THAT: SHIT.

oh i hear ya. fast food and most candy seems like they just become habit, perhaps people actually get addicted, but does it actuallly taste good?

fast food is usually just extremely bad quality meat with spices and grease covering up the taste, while candy is essentially just colored sugar cubes.

me? i actually have a diet of instant meals. i can cook, i sometimes do, usually by stuffing a wok with vegetables, but i’m lazy. and any precautions about instant meals aside, they don’t all look like this. there are plenty i buy right around the corner that are not frozen, have plenty of vegetables, and i don’t even posses a microwave so i rip off the top and turn it inside out in a wok with some oil and water. although some go in the oven, au bain-marie, or are simply eaten cold (can’t get more instant than that).

it’s not cheap though. lazy, cheap, tasty, healthy – pick any three.

i like your car analogy btw.

i’m also gonna use Ungeziefer’s “plant-eggs” to describe nuts. wish i’d come up with that.