What should NATO's standard-issue pistol cartridge really be? page 2

119 posts

Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

Jhco, the new M16 / M4 are of the most reliable. Though they may operate with a DI gas system and require a cleaning usually after every firefight, you are unlikely to receive any jams. The original M16 was fielded with no forward assist, no cleaning kit, and no training on cleaning / clearing weapons with obstructions. You are unlikely to receive any jams, and though you may every once in a while performing immediate (SPORT) or remedial action (Taking apart the rifle) on the weapon in the field is very easily done and it was trained countless times. They are of the most dependable rifles out on the field today.

When you say the new M-16, do you make any distinction between the A-1 or A-2 models? In the service I was issued an A-2 model, although we did have the occassional A-1 in our armory. The main difference I could see was the ridging on the barrel with the A-2. Although we did clean them, their cleanliness often fell by the wayside (especially in the desert with all the sand and wind, OMG), and it was my understanding they were meant to be hardy and withstand a lot of dirt, water, and field abrasive elements.

To answer the OP’s original question, just based on my experience I would recommend the M-9 for domestic use (convenient, small, easy to clean and reload in a hurry) and the M-16 for more war oriented field use. I don’t have a full knowledge of all weapons out there though, so there might be a superior choice to this. Although revolvers are nice in their simplicity and nostalgic, and I used to train on them, I would stay away from them for standard issue just because they are slow to reload in an exigent situation, and the “magazines” for reload do not fit easily into belt gear.

 
Flag Post

Are you talking about fluting Twilight? Are the ridges indented in the barrel or on the surface? I guess what I am trying to say is, are the innys or outys, LOL. Ok maybe that isn’t funny. I am familiar with the originals but there are so many on the market nowadays I can’t keep track of them. It is entirely possible that they are using looser tolerances in the newer guns and that would allow more leeway in reliability in dirty conditions.

I’m not suggesting revolvers for the military in this day and age. I think the M9 is a really beautiful design, downright attractive. Double Action revolvers can be loaded quite fast with speed loaders. Single actions are a one at a time proposition, but in the civilian world we really don’t need super fast reloading except in some competitions.

I know on the gun forums there is always someone asking how many rounds others carry for self-defense and they get all kinds of answers, but in reality you will only expend one or two rounds in a confrontation. I carry a six shot revolver and feel comfortable with that. I have no reason to carry any more than that. Most confrontations take place within 20 yards and if you can’t get that first round off you have lost.

If I was carrying a semi-auto and a couple of spare magazines, I would carry them in a holster made for them called magazine pouches. They also make pouches for speed loaders used for revolvers.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:

They also make pouches for speed loaders used for revolvers.

I’ve sped reloaded with the revolver ones on the range, but even at someone’s best, they really aren’t as fast as slipping in a magazine.

And yes, I think the ridging/fluting was an outie. This was my weapon at one time.

 
Flag Post

If you get on youtube, look up Bob Munden. He bills himself as the fastest man alive. He makes a good case for himself in his use of a single action revolver while shooting. It makes no point, but he is really, really good…and very fast. You and others would enjoy watching him.

 
Flag Post

Okay, I’ll respond to a few posts all in one.

As for you first question about the barrels of the M4, Jhco, I’ve never seen that happen. I never carried an extra barrel (I wouldn’t need to anyway, I would eventually be more concerned with treating a casualty than firing back) but that’s not to say that we never shot a lot. Just never saw an M4 overheat because of the fact that everybody is usually firing semi-automatic (Who the fuck wants to run out of ammo so quickly?) and is not dumping mags over and over. Usually, you pop about 3-4 rounds, and let the squad gunners figure out what the bad guys need. They carry extra barrels anyway, they are meant to be prepared for overheating.

As for the bullet yawing and tumbling, that only occurs when it strikes soft flesh. I don’t know how to embed images but I can show you paths of different bullets within the human body. The bullet of a .223 / 5.56 tumbles (I hope you know what this means) and yaws within the body and that is sufficient enough I suppose to pump holes into them. Though, if we implemented JHP instead of FMJ only (We don’t like to kill people we try to kill) we would have serious damage and easier kills. The FMJ really just passes through the body and when it strikes bone, it changes up a path and shatters the bone, and just leaves the body. But, if we put JHP through some guy, upon impact of a bone, that bullet mushrooms out like a typical HP and that guy is definitely going to feel bad in the morning.

FMJ is not more reliable in some cases only. If we were shooting men with ballistic vests, ceramic plates, etc. we would have to use FMJ because then the round would penetrate instead of ‘shroom out on the outside of the armor with something like JHP or HP. If we were to start using JHP against guys wearing cloths, we would drop them. If we used HP against guys in vests, we wouldn’t even penetrate.

There is a fucking huge distinction between an M16A1 and M16A2.

The first noticable one being the traingular handguards vs the round handguards, and the second one being the M16A1 only fires semi automatic and fully automatic. The A2 fires semi automatic and a 3-round burst. Not to mention, the carrying handle and sights are different.

As for distinction between the different M16’s, read this

M16: Triangular handguards, forked flash hider, no forward assist, semi automatic and fully automatic, 20 round magazines

M16A1: Triangular handguards, forked flash hider, forward assist, semi and fully automatic, 20 round magazines

M16A2: Round handguards, forward assist, semiautomatic and 3-round burst, 30 round STANAG magazines

M16A3: Round hand guards, forward assist, semi automatic and fully automatic, 30 round STANAG magazines. Used by the navy only

M16A4: Built-in picatinny rail, forward assist, round hand guards, semi automatic and 3-round burst, 30 round STANAG magazines, flat top (No carrying handle)

And that’s that, man.

The A1 was brought into service in like ‘67 or something, and the A2 in the ’80s. Some armories still used the A1 for training, but I’m pretty sure all A1 has been taken out of service and the A2 / A4 models are now dominant.

Jhco, the military should not adopt revolvers. They only have a 6-7 shot capacity in most cases, take longer to reload than a mag dump, also if you’re not pulling that hammer back every time you’re about to fire, you can end up being really inaccurate because the trigger squeeze is so much harder. And the weight / size of revolvers is almost laughable. I wouldn’t want to tote around with one no matter if it looked beautiful or not. 15 round mag capacities in an M9 are the most effective, and the thing packs a punch to about ~50 meters.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

I don’t know how to embed images but I can show you paths of different bullets within the human body.

I’m staying out of this thread for the most part, as its way outside my knowledge area, but I can help here at least. I would whisper it, but PMs don’t accept the code so I’ll do it here.

<img src="http://WebAddressOfTheImage.jpg"&gt;

So, for example, a specific picture of the M4:

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/M4w-att.jpg/400px-M4w-att.jpg"&gt;

EDIT: On the above, kong keeps printing ‘& gt;’. This is wrong, it should be ‘>’ but I cannot get it to display properly inside the code tags.


The result you get from the example being this:

When you find the image you are looking for on the web, copy the image location not the image itself. That’s all there is to it.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

I don’t know how to embed images but I can show you paths of different bullets within the human body.

I’m staying out of this thread for the most part, as its way outside my knowledge area, but I can help here at least. I would whisper it, but PMs don’t accept the code so I’ll do it here.

&lt;img src="<a href="http://WebAddressOfTheImage.jpg&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt" rel="nofollow">http://WebAddressOfTheImage.jpg&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt&lt;/a&gt;;

So, for example, a specific picture of the M4:

&lt;img src="<a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/M4w-att.jpg/400px-M4w-att.jpg&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt" rel="nofollow">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/M4w-att.jpg/400px-M4w-att.jpg&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt&lt;/a&gt;;

EDIT: On the above, kong keeps printing ‘& gt;’. This is wrong, it should be ‘>’ but I cannot get it to display properly inside the code tags.


The result you get from the example being this:

When you find the image you are looking for on the web, copy the image location not the image itself. That’s all there is to it.

Thanks a bunh, now I can at least support my argument with a picture rather than try to paint one with words. .

 
Flag Post

It’s a nice piece of work, although it really looks more like the M203 grenade launcher (at least with that bottom portion).

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

It’s a nice piece of work, although it really looks more like the M203 grenade launcher (at least with that bottom portion).

Don’t know what you’re referring to but I’ve seen both 203 and 320 grenade launchers used. Our squad leader also carried an unmounted M320 40mm grenade launcher with a stock. It was really effective and easier to use than a mounted one sometimes.

We had more than one 203 grenade launchers with us though, one of our gunners for instance got bored with the 240B and asked for an M203 on his rifle and got it.

 
Flag Post

Here is an attempt at showing you guys what I’m talking about when it comes to the path of a bullet upon striking flesh. Notice the fallacies of the Russian cartridges, which just go through and through with too much power.

Every time the bullet tumbles, you get a pretty damn big cavity going through. The Russians really have their bullets tumble (notice top bullet as well as AK-47 cartridge) moreso than break apart within the body – which is way more effective as treating for that is hard because doctors need to remove every piece of lead.

You’re supposed to be looking at the 52 / 62 grain bullets.

 
Flag Post

No one here is answerting the question – at all. I asked about pistol cartridges, and everyone’s talking about different manufacturers as opposed to staing the most useful round. Please stay on topic, as the discussion may fuel a future thesis for any writings I may begin.

Also, Softest, misjudging the brand name on a weapon does not indicate a lack of knowledge of firearms. I haven’t seen Glock products in a while.

 
Flag Post

Hey, just wanted to make sure the correct info was presented.

Also, I stated that it’s unlikely NATO forces will be moving away from the 9mm round anytime soon, as that’s what they’ve used for quite a while now.
It’s what they’re invested in.

It’s an effective round, when properly employed.
Hit what you’re aiming at, and follow up quickly, and everything should go according to plan. ;)

 
Flag Post

We’ve stayed on topic for the most part, though some of us have wandered off a bit to talk about the M16…

Like I said, I’m pleased with 9mm but .40 would be effective. Don’t expect a change any time soon, as Softest said.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

Jhco, the military should not adopt revolvers. They only have a 6-7 shot capacity in most cases, take longer to reload than a mag dump, also if you’re not pulling that hammer back every time you’re about to fire, you can end up being really inaccurate because the trigger squeeze is so much harder. And the weight / size of revolvers is almost laughable. I wouldn’t want to tote around with one no matter if it looked beautiful or not. 15 round mag capacities in an M9 are the most effective, and the thing packs a punch to about ~50 meters.

Sir I wasn’t suggesting the military go to revolvers, those days are over forever. Awhile back the military was talking about going back to the .45acp. They were going to hold trials for a new sidearm, but lack of money for a change like that caused it to just die off. The Bob Munden I mentioned is a single action shooter and is one of the fastest in the world. It didn’t have much to do with the military, just something I thought would be interesting to people like us who enjoy firearms ownership.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

Here is an attempt at showing you guys what I’m talking about when it comes to the path of a bullet upon striking flesh. Notice the fallacies of the Russian cartridges, which just go through and through with too much power.

Every time the bullet tumbles, you get a pretty damn big cavity going through. The Russians really have their bullets tumble (notice top bullet as well as AK-47 cartridge) moreso than break apart within the body – which is way more effective as treating for that is hard because doctors need to remove every piece of lead.

You’re supposed to be looking at the 52 / 62 grain bullets.

It’s interesting to note a couple of things. One is the fact your image shows a full metal jacket coming apart after impact. This leads me to believe the jacket is very thin. It is noticeable that the wound channel seems to be quite big, much like a hollow point. This would seem an accurate representation if the jacket is coming apart, creating a useful shock value.

One thing I would like to bring up to shooters is the 5.56mm military cartridge is slightly different than the civilian .223 Remington. Although almost identical the neck on the 5.56 is lightly longer and can cause high pressure in a rifle chambered for the civilian .223. also, the chamber dimensions on the civilian firearms are tighter than the military, another cause for concern. Just informational and something to watch for when getting surplus ammunition.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by 12_Hundred:

No one here is answerting the question – at all. I asked about pistol cartridges, and everyone’s talking about different manufacturers as opposed to staing the most useful round. Please stay on topic, as the discussion may fuel a future thesis for any writings I may begin.

Also, Softest, misjudging the brand name on a weapon does not indicate a lack of knowledge of firearms. I haven’t seen Glock products in a while.

You might be a bit more specific in the information you require. If you are looking for specs on the cartridges, we can supply that information for you. Powder charges, primers, etc, etc., are available if that is what you want.

The reason I suggested the .45acp is bullet diameter. The bigger the diameter the bigger wound channel you can expect. Bigger wound channel, more shock value (not considering velocity which can increase shock value as well) and more bleeding. The 9mm is not going to give the same shock value and as my son was indicating today (while talking about this thread), this is why soldiers are taught to double-tap. Many of the civilian shooting techniques incorporate the double-tap for some shooting competitions and in some cases self defense. I was never taught this technique.

 
Flag Post

An AR-15 can fire .223 or 5.56

An M16 or M4 cannot fire .223

Anyway, the jacket does not come apart, they’re not designed to. It’s a copper coating all the way up around the bullet it’s not possible to split open like a JHP or HP. It is designed to upset however, but you’re trying to compare that HP / JHP, which is a big difference. When 5.56 DOES upset it shatters into a bunch of tiny lead pieces. The velocity that the bullets are traveling at are usually about 2395fps or so when it strikes a bad guy. At that velocity, it has nowhere near enough speed to shatter like it should.

That picture above illustrated the depth at which the bullet started to upset. Optimal penetration is about 12" to 18" no more and no less.

Check out this picture. 5.56×45 on a human body. See the problem here? (Bullet is traveling left to right.)

 
Flag Post

Double tap is taught to put more rounds down range to hit the bad guy as much as you can as quickly as you can. For example, when I was sitting in an OP tower in an outpost ~2km south of FOB Wilson, I was watching two guys walking together outside of the wire peobably 50 to 100 meters away, one of the men pulled a knife out and started stabbing the guy he was walking with. I’m not there as a policeman and this dude served no threat to me or the rest of the outpost, but I shot him anyway. Instead of shooting maybe once or twice, I shot six times and hit my mark four times. The 5.56 round is both somewhat weak as well as quick to overcome when you have adrenaline and time to get out of there, he was actually running when one of the rounds hit his back and he fell down and took the rest of the shots. The reason why I shot so many times was both because there was a huge chance the guy would keep on running and get out of there, or I could miss vitals. If I shot at people, I shot them until they fell down, until then I squeezed the trigger as many times as I needed until they fell down.

In AIT I had to take part in training of an urban environment, a the end of this simulation of an urban combat environment, I had to apply medical care to a guy who had a gunshot wound to the left leg. I squeezed 4 rounds per target, moved to next position, 4 rounds on a target, and so on until I got to my guy, where I would then pop off 4 round groupings at any target until I had gone through 5 magazines. Everybody in the military is trained to let loose until you don’t need to shoot anymore. SAW / 240B / M2HB / Mark19 gunners unleash fury until they’re told to stop. It’s their job.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

An AR-15 can fire .223 or 5.56

An M16 or M4 cannot fire .223

Anyway, the jacket does not come apart, they’re not designed to. It’s a copper coating all the way up around the bullet it’s not possible to split open like a JHP or HP. It is designed to upset however, but you’re trying to compare that HP / JHP, which is a big difference. When 5.56 DOES upset it shatters into a bunch of tiny lead pieces. The velocity that the bullets are traveling at are usually about 2395fps or so when it strikes a bad guy. At that velocity, it has nowhere near enough speed to shatter like it should.

That picture above illustrated the depth at which the bullet started to upset. Optimal penetration is about 12" to 18" no more and no less.

Check out this picture. 5.56×45 on a human body. See the problem here? (Bullet is traveling left to right.)

Some AR-15s can shoot both, but not all. it depends on the manufacturer of the barrel and the chamber specifications used for manufacturing. In the civilian world, if a person wants to shoot military surplus, it is suggested to have the chamber dimensions checked for safety. It is always better to be safe than sorry. I don’t have my reloading manuals handy to give you comparisons at the moment. I would think the main thing to be checked would be the leade in the chamber, that portion of the chamber where the mouth of the cartridge contacts the end of the chamber and contacts the lands of the rifling. If the mouth of the case is pinched too tight it will not open during Obturation. This is what causes the high pressure. I will see if I can get more information on this for you.

In the torso picture I quoted, it looks like the bullet is entering and then just beginning to yaw upon exiting. As is common knowledge, the exit wound is larger than the entry wound. I have seen several images of people having accidents and shooting themselves. They need a bit of safety training. :) One shot himself in the thigh and the exit wound was devastatingly large. He did recover, but had a limp, according to him. It was a sidearm.

If the lead of the projectile is breaking into pieces, the jacket of the projectile is breaking up and it is a thin jacket. A normal full metal jacket would hold together. Obviously, the military designed the projectile to do this for maximum effect. I believe it was the Geneva convention that outlawed all but FMJ projectiles.

You say the M16 can’t fire the .223 Remington. Is there reasons for this you are privy too? 12" to 18" is optimal for self defense on a human being. The only time hunters may want more is for dangerous game in Africa, in which case they look for complete penetration.

 
Flag Post

According to John Schaefer, a contributor to the American Rifleman magazine (NRA Publications), and I quote:

“Paramilitary 5.56mm ammunition should not be fired in commercial rifles with chambers reamed to SAAMI specifications. The SAAMI chamber used in sporting firearms has a smaller diameter bullet seat, a shorter throat and less free bore than military chambers. Chamber pressures can rise dramatically when military ammunition is fired in them.

SAAMI specifications for commercial .223 ammunition specify an average chamber pressure of 52,000 CUP. When military ammunition is fired in the SAAMI chamber, pressures may rise to 55,000 or 60,000 CUP! U.S. manufactured paramilitary ammunition intended for civilian consumption is purposely loaded down to SAAMI pressure levels and bullets are often seated deeper to accommodate the SAAMI chamber. Ammunition certified to meet Mil-C-9963F (the military specification for M193 Ball) is only available to U.S. government agencies and private security firms under contract to provide security for U.S. government installations."

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

Paramilitary ammunition means surplus. SAAMI is the organization who determines the standards for cartridges and chamberings, etc.

With this information I can see how firing a .223 in an M16 could possibly cause a headspacing problem.

 
Flag Post

As for the second part of your post, though the exit wound might be large, it’s not so much what should be done on the exit, but what should be done on the inside. If this round hit a guy in the chest and went through only to start yawing on the exit, I’d just first put an occlusive dressing on the exit wound, then on the entrance. Then if he got tension pnuemo obviously, I would put a cath into the third intercostal space or just burp the wound. Simpler to treat than a guy with a shitload of shattering on the inside where there’s no exit wound. That’s beyond my care anyway, I could just use a HALO pad on his entrance wound and keep burping, but he needs to be evacuated quickly. The CAX is going to be in bad condition by the time he gets flown off.

We use full metal jackets, and as I said it requires on the velocity of the round for when it expands and shatters. It has to travel very fast.

I was mixed up yet again on the part in which I said the 5.56 couldn’t fire .223. Just flip those around and you’ve got it.

5.56×45 / .223 have way too much penetration for me to use as home defense, especially if I’m in a neighborhood. But whatever, people still use them. I stick with my Mossberg 590.

.223 Can cause many slamfires because it has such a light primer, which is yet another danger when using it with a military rifle.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by rwbstripes:

As for the second part of your post, though the exit wound might be large, it’s not so much what should be done on the exit, but what should be done on the inside. If this round hit a guy in the chest and went through only to start yawing on the exit, I’d just first put an occlusive dressing on the exit wound, then on the entrance. Then if he got tension pnuemo obviously, I would put a cath into the third intercostal space or just burp the wound. Simpler to treat than a guy with a shitload of shattering on the inside where there’s no exit wound. That’s beyond my care anyway, I could just use a HALO pad on his entrance wound and keep burping, but he needs to be evacuated quickly. The CAX is going to be in bad condition by the time he gets flown off.

We use full metal jackets, and as I said it requires on the velocity of the round for when it expands and shatters. It has to travel very fast.

I was mixed up yet again on the part in which I said the 5.56 couldn’t fire .223. Just flip those around and you’ve got it.

5.56×45 / .223 have way too much penetration for me to use as home defense, especially if I’m in a neighborhood. But whatever, people still use them. I stick with my Mossberg 590.

.223 Can cause many slamfires because it has such a light primer, which is yet another danger when using it with a military rifle.

I practically wrote an essay on bullet construction, velocities, hunting, self-defense, etc…….and lost it. :(

Let me just say for now that I would never doubt your skills as a medic or the job you do. I couldn’t begin to be a medic, at least one with survivors. I will try to recreate my essay a little later.

 
Flag Post

My favorite thing that I picked up unofficially was this

If you’re treating American: No gloves

If you’re treating foreign: Gloves

I’d love to read your essay anyway, though I’ve received years of education and experienced on all of which that essay is based upon, I would read it.

 
Flag Post

Don’t worry about the mistake with the flipping; I have been known to make a few gaffs myself.

Let me start with my comparison of projectile types. The full metal jacket (FMJ) is a popular bullet for African hunters in their pursuit for dangerous game, such as Elephant and Water Buffalo. These animals are heavily constructed with massive bones and muscle structure. African hunters want a bullet that will hold together and penetrate deeply to reach the vitals.

American hunters prefer the designs coming out today, such as the ballistic tip and the controlled expansion bullets from all of the manufacturers. I use a .30-30 Lever Action and I am limited in the bullet type I can use, flat points (JSP) and round points. I prefer the 170-grain bullets, but the 150 grains are popular too. The modern controlled expansion bullets are designed to expend their energy in the animal and they do an admirable job.

Bullet construction isn’t the only requisite to be valid in a cartridge’s ability to perform. Velocity. Bringing a small caliber performance bullet to say, 3000 to 4000 fps is an explosive combination.

A good example of a high velocity large bullet would be the .50 caliber sniper rifle. I was at a shooting range one day and the guy next to me started shooting a Barrett .50 caliber. The concussion was so strong, I could feel it in my chest. It was so loud my hearing protection was stretched to a point it was barely working.

You mentioned self-defense and I definitely would not use a .223 cartridge for that purpose. It would penetrate too many walls. When I was young this subject was debated to death. My era finally settled on the .38 Special and smaller. These will still penetrate a wall, as it is only 2″×4″ studs with two half inch pieces of Sheetrock. Even a .22LR could penetrate. We settled on the .38 as it would lose velocity much more readily. However, it is mandatory to make sure of your flight path. Your choice of a pump shotgun is a wise one.

 
Flag Post

.50BMG Will easily perforate an eardrum. Most ranges don’t even allow them to be used, so I’m pretty surprised that he was even freely using it. As for the concussion – I feel that strongly with even 30-06. And pshh not calling it a designated marksman rifle.

I hunt with ballistic tip, and carry ball ammunition for when I’m in the woods because of the bear territory here. I’ve always considered this ammunition to be superior to something like HP (JHP might suffice, but there’s still a chance of failure) because of the thick mane, the HP would probably just mushroom on the outside of mane.

Though this thread is specifically on pistol cartridges and which one should be implemented in the military, I really don’t care anymore and am much more intrigued with the current topic.

As for home defense – I would just use 9mm with subsonic load. My current plan for home defense happens to be: Grab 590 loaded with 1oz slug by bed, aim at door, shoot something that walks in. This both reduces danger to those around me as well as to myself.