Palestine being recognized as a separate state

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Surprised nobody has posted anything about this yet. According to the U.N., there is a good chance that Palestine is going to be (or has it already?) recognized as a separate state. How does the SD think of how this will change the the situation in the Middle East and its surrounding areas, along with the rest of the world in general? (I can’t help but notice that Obama voted that they shouldn’t, and then Harper has followed with a no).

 
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Israel and Palestine already signed a treaty saying that they would decide this for themselves, absent of foreign influence. Israel opposed this in the UN. The UN is simply meddling, as usual. I don’t really care how many nations in the UN vote on something. It doesn’t make it right.

 
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Originally posted by Camoraz:

Surprised nobody has posted anything about this yet. According to the U.N., there is a good chance that Palestine is going to be (or has it already?) recognized as a separate state. How does the SD think of how this will change the the situation in the Middle East and its surrounding areas, along with the rest of the world in general? (I can’t help but notice that Obama voted that they shouldn’t, and then Harper has followed with a no).

Harper’s even more of a lapdog to Israel then the Americans are.

Nobody signed any ‘treaty’. Israel opposed this in the UN because they’re rightly afraid of international scorn, especially if palestine brings them up on charges at the ICC.

So, I’m ok with all this.

 
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I think this will force both sides into at least listing to each other’s argument and will hopefully remove the fight from the battlefield and into the UN debate floor.

 
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Palestine was recognised as an observer state, not sure about all the implications of that.

Also, does this mean that now there has to be a declaration of war if the rocket strikes were to continue?

 
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Originally posted by TuJe:

Palestine was recognised as an observer state, not sure about all the implications of that.

Also, does this mean that now there has to be a declaration of war if the rocket strikes were to continue?

The way I understood it, they can now benefit from some of the privileges granted to UN members without actually being a member yet. The most important thing there seems to be that they could now start a trial against Israel in The Hague.

 
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I think it would provide the organization, handshakes and back patting to commit to direct israeli resistance. Probably just economic sanctions and formal denunciations – but it will also foster an atmosphere of greater scrutiny. Israel will have to play a little nicer or risk everyone not liking them anymore.

That said, I see it as systematized dissent never going anywhere. Typical of the UN itself.

 
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I’m honestly disappointed with Canada, the Czech Republic and some former U.S. territories whom all decided to do what the lobbyists and America wants them to do rather than deciding by themselves. Especially Canada.

 
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If Palestine tries to go around Israel, and leverage their way to statehood without recognizing Israeli statehood, and with no peace agreement, or secession of hostilities, it will hinder peace. It is the right thing to do, to let them work it out, instead of meddling.

A Palestinian state, absent of peace, will guarantee a war.

Trying to give away land that belongs to Israel, right or wrong, is an assault on Israeli autonomy and control over that region. Whether you agree or disagree with who wants to be a state or not, PEACE should be the first step, not statehood and bolstering of power. THAT is why your beloved Canada, and even liberal as shit Obama oppose this UN move, because the end result will be fighting. End the fighting, and then broker statehood for both, sharing land, resources, economies, in a stable and positive relationship. Giving Palestine statehood, especially when its controlled by a terrorist organization is just undermining the extension of Israel toward peace. It’s telling Palestine that it doesn’t need to negotiate with Israel, that it is whatever it wants to be, even when it launches fucking rockets over there.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

If Palestine tries to go around Israel, and leverage their way to statehood without recognizing Israeli statehood, and with no peace agreement, or secession of hostilities, it will hinder peace. It is the right thing to do, to let them work it out, instead of meddling.

A Palestinian state, absent of peace, will guarantee a war.

Trying to give away land that belongs to Israel, right or wrong, is an assault on Israeli autonomy and control over that region. Whether you agree or disagree with who wants to be a state or not, PEACE should be the first step, not statehood and bolstering of power. THAT is why your beloved Canada, and even liberal as shit Obama oppose this UN move, because the end result will be fighting. End the fighting, and then broker statehood for both, sharing land, resources, economies, in a stable and positive relationship. Giving Palestine statehood, especially when its controlled by a terrorist organization is just undermining the extension of Israel toward peace. It’s telling Palestine that it doesn’t need to negotiate with Israel, that it is whatever it wants to be, even when it launches fucking rockets over there.

The problem with that idea is that both the majority people in Israel and Palestine are psychologically so damaged that there never will be Peace if it is not forced upon them.
Your suggestion basically means the continuation of the Status Quo. The people on both sides who don´t want peace and control their respective governments get to continue their doings.
Israel claims the rights of being an occupying power. Missuses its occupying powers to illegally settle occupied land, stifle economical growth within the occupied territory and generally collectively harass the people leaving there and tries to pretend that as an occupying power it is not directly responsible for both the government and policing of the occupied territory.
The Palestinians try to use terrorist (resistance) methods for revenge and to force Israel into negotiating with them, not noticing that the times have changed and that doing so just backfires. Unlike during the first intifada Israel is well prepared against most types of attack. So the loses for them are relative minor and while there are some spikes in threat level, its not enough to shock the general populace into thinking that they need to actually compromise to get peace.
Instead their tactics give Israel excuses to keep on continuing their oppression. While the Palestinians desalinate the major players in the international community, who do see the plight of the Palestinians but are disgusted by their radical Islamic agenda and some of their terrorist acts.
While both sides might desire for peace their unwillingness to get there through compromises is to high. Both sides need a giant kick in the ass. As long as the international community is unwilling to do so, this conflict will continue. With the status Quo on both sides only (usually slightly) shifting through eventual technological advances.

 
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If Palestine tries to go around Israel, and leverage their way to statehood without recognizing Israeli statehood, and with no peace agreement, or secession of hostilities, it will hinder peace. It is the right thing to do, to let them work it out, instead of meddling.

Because they’ve done a stellar job with it so far, right? Oh, now i remember – you’re one of those guys who think it was the palestinians fault every single time they talked peace. Yeah, i can see why you’d be against the UN giving them a hand.

Giving Palestine statehood, especially when its controlled by a terrorist organization is just undermining the extension of Israel toward peace.

Well, that’s a strange attitude, considering a majority of israelis WANT to negotiate with hamas over the PA, something even the current administration has realized.

 
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I must be really out of touch, since I always thought and considered Palestine to be a separate state…

 
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well obviously they have the right to be a country. i think the question is rather, does Israel have?

i mean come on. you can’t just tell a people to move off because of myth and mistreatment of another group of people by a third group of people.

*is ashamed to be in the gray region below*
 
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Originally posted by Shadowhopeful:

I must be really out of touch, since I always thought and considered Palestine to be a separate state…

Your are not alone with your opinion. I even have a nice map. The green countries think that Palestine is a separate state:

 
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North Korea, Iran, South Africa, Russia… all the great vacation locations.

 
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Look… I don’t know how to make this clearer for you unrealistic naive idealists.

There are two possible routes to statehood:

1) Without peace from Israel, made from pressure from outside nations.

2) A slowly and painfully developed peace preceding a mutually recognized two state arrangement.

Now, let’s examine the implications of these two routes:

Route 1: It’s expedient, and it gives Palestinians what they want, and arguably what they deserve. But, it leads to war. The problem is that, according to international law, blockading a port, or border, of a nation, is an act of war. That leaves Israel with two options. They can either leave the blockade up, and go to war with the Palestinian state, and all of their allies, or they can take the blockade down, and let a stream of medium and long range weapons flow into Palestine. Both of those will end in war. Israel knows that the implications of a Palestinian State, without peace first, IS WAR.

Route 2: It isn’t ideal. It’s time consuming. It’s slow and painful. But, the advantage is that there isn’t a massive and multi national war that explodes in the middle east, between Israel, our only ally there, and everyone else. What that would mean, is that the Western world, and the allies of Israel (everyone in gray on that map) would go to war with Palestine and its allies (most of the green on that map).

A Palestinian state, premature, and without peace, is the quickest and easiest way to a world war I can think of, because of Israel choosing self annihilation or world war. I mean, do I want Palestine to get it’s own state? Sure, yeah. Do I want to confer all the responsibilities and powers of a sovereign nation onto an already blockaded tinderbox? HOLY FUCK NO! ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT!

To do so would be the idealistic thing to do, and also the dumbest. Fucking idiots…

 
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Do I want to confer all the responsibilities and powers of a sovereign nation onto an already blockaded tinderbox? HOLY FUCK NO! ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT!

To do so would be the idealistic thing to do, and also the dumbest. Fucking idiots…

There is another way,
Israel ends all its hostilities and occupation.
End of story both sides happy.
You’ll say hamas and likes will “destroy” Israel.
Tell me, have they destroyed Israel yet?
If they were so hell bent on destroying Israel, they would have sent an endless rocket barrage on them and they would’ve neen actively engaging them in guirella warfare.
But they are not doing so are they?
Hell evven the last conflict started when Israel killed some pals first.

 
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This isn’t 1914. It isn’t even 1939. There will be no world war over palestine. If anything, being recognized as a state doesn’t give them any more power than they had before, except symbolic. Even the ICC entry would be a longshot, and assuming they got into that too? It’s not like Israel hasn’t ignored international law in the past.

I think I prefer being a naive idealist to a paranoiac with an antiquated misunderstanding of how modern international politics works.

 
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Ok, I recognize that there is a 3rd option. Where would you like Israel to go? What should those people do? Should they just off themselves? Should they just swim out into the ocean? I mean… what the fuck. Option 3 is silly, and will never happen. I suppose there is an option 4. That would be that everyone just nukes both of them into oblivion. How about option 5, we just tell Palestine to go to hell, and force them to move to Afghanistan.

Can we keep this realistic? The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. The Israelis aren’t going anywhere.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

This isn’t 1914. It isn’t even 1939. There will be no world war over palestine. If anything, being recognized as a state doesn’t give them any more power than they had before, except symbolic. Even the ICC entry would be a longshot, and assuming they got into that too? It’s not like Israel hasn’t ignored international law in the past.

I think I prefer being a naive idealist to a paranoiac with an antiquated misunderstanding of how modern international politics works.

Yes, because the allies of Palestine are peaceful modern realists. If Palestine becomes it’s own sovereign nation, with alliances like Iran, Syria, and North Korea, they will be completely understanding, and not use that as a reason to go to war. Those countries are so modern and enlightened.

You call it “paranoid”. I call it realistic. Israel is blockading a part of the land there, that if it becomes a nation with allies, will be an act of war, by definition. Fuck that. I’m not for redefining the actions of our allies to “war” with a small group of people, and their allies across the globe. Yeah, not cool.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

North Korea, Iran, South Africa, Russia… all the great vacation locations.

Do you actually know anything about those countries that hasn’t come from propaganda? You know, like facts or culture other than that everyone in those countries burns US flags and beheads their neighbours.

I shared a room with a man from Iran for 3 nights/4 days, he prayed to Mecca six times a day but he didn’t behead me, burn anything or kill me while I slept. He didn’t mind me drinking or try to convert me or anything and when I first met him he mentioned his prayers and asked if it was OK for him to do it in the room or if he should find somewhere else.

Knew a few people from South Africa in my university days and they all seemed pretty normal, and I met some Russian guys who I was sharing a flat with and they were an absolute blast, always happy to chat, good sense of humour and always up for a vodka (I guess some stereotypes are true)

Between myself, close family and close friends I know people who have been to all four of the countries you listed and they were safe and enjoyed it. Yes bad things happen in those countries, but bad stuff happens in every country, just people think the news they read on a country is all there is to that country because they don’t bother to look past the news story to the real place

 
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I like it when MyTie works himself into a good Zionist lather.
It’s thoroughly amusing.

Also, I enjoy it when those that hope for a diplomatic solution to the Israel/Palestine situation are “fucking idiots”.
Nice touch there, oh bespoke elder statesman.

Hey, here’s a thought; maybe if Israel didn’t continually and completely IGNORE INTERNATIONAL LAW and force settlements full of zealous half wits into the West Bank and Gaza, Palestine wouldn’t have to resort to the “outside influence” of the UN just to get a foot in the fucking door.

You know, the same kind of “outside influence” that crammed Israel in there in the first place?

Sorry skippy, but complete ignorance of international diplomacy and the ability to scream louder does not make your misguided opinion valid.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

This isn’t 1914. It isn’t even 1939. There will be no world war over palestine. If anything, being recognized as a state doesn’t give them any more power than they had before, except symbolic. Even the ICC entry would be a longshot, and assuming they got into that too? It’s not like Israel hasn’t ignored international law in the past.

I think I prefer being a naive idealist to a paranoiac with an antiquated misunderstanding of how modern international politics works.

Yes, because the allies of Palestine are peaceful modern realists. If Palestine becomes it’s own sovereign nation, with alliances like Iran, Syria, and North Korea, they will be completely understanding, and not use that as a reason to go to war. Those countries are so modern and enlightened.

You call it “paranoid”. I call it realistic. Israel is blockading a part of the land there, that if it becomes a nation with allies, will be an act of war, by definition. Fuck that. I’m not for redefining the actions of our allies to “war” with a small group of people, and their allies across the globe. Yeah, not cool.

Being racist is so modern and enlightened. I consider myself as feeding trolls right now.

 
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Yes, because the allies of Palestine are peaceful modern realists. If Palestine becomes it’s own sovereign nation, with alliances like Iran, Syria, and North Korea, they will be completely understanding, and not use that as a reason to go to war. Those countries are so modern and enlightened.

Man, I don’t even know where to begin…

North Korea isn’t palestine’s ally. I don’t know why you’d think that, as it makes no sense. Maybe Bush’s axis of evil speech? But he wasn’t referring to palestine, or for that matter, saying that any of those guys were allies. I mean, WTF would North Korea’s contribution to the war effort be, exactly?

Syria’s got its own problems to deal with – you know, the civil war? I don’t think they’re in much shape to be a key contestant on Battlefield: Palestine.

Iran was Hamas’s ally. That relationship’s looking pretty strained, considering the influence of Turkey, Egypt, Qatar – you know, palestine’s ACTUAL allies. Hey, funny thing – none of those countries are militant-crazy. Egypt, despite being increasingly authoritarian, is spearheading this diplomatic endeavour, and if it weren’t for Morsi, they’d probably still be at each other’s throats.

I really like how you keep pushing for the ‘special relationship’ thing. Newsflash: the US has plenty of allies over there. Egypt, Turkey, SA and Jordan all spring to mind. As for the israelis? They’re a PR nightmare for the US. They’re constantly getting into shit, constantly using disproportionate force – something like 5 israelis died during the rocket attacks, compared to 181 palestinians from the air strikes – basically, Israel’s an embarassment that the US is just stuck with.

It wouldn’t be so bad if there was some benefit to the relationship, if they had resources like SA or served as a buffer zone to ward off the crazies, like Turkey, or if they had some influence in the region, like Egypt. But they don’t have anything like that. Whenever zionists like you try to specify what it is they DO for us, it’s always cast in cultural terms, like they’re ‘one of us’ and the other states are just barbarians or something. Even if that were true – it isn’t – that’s still not a good enough reason to throw pots of money and make over-the-top apologies for them.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Ok, I recognize that there is a 3rd option. Where would you like Israel to go? What should those people do? Should they just off themselves? Should they just swim out into the ocean? I mean… what the fuck. Option 3 is silly, and will never happen. I suppose there is an option 4. That would be that everyone just nukes both of them into oblivion. How about option 5, we just tell Palestine to go to hell, and force them to move to Afghanistan.

Can we keep this realistic? The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. The Israelis aren’t going anywhere.

I think you have not read my post completely or misunderstood it or you are just in a drama queen rage of yours.