Palestine being recognized as a separate state page 2

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Let’s see, what do we have here…. People calling me troll, Drama Queen, racist, zionist, ignorant…. OH HERE! A decent post:

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Yes, because the allies of Palestine are peaceful modern realists. If Palestine becomes it’s own sovereign nation, with alliances like Iran, Syria, and North Korea, they will be completely understanding, and not use that as a reason to go to war. Those countries are so modern and enlightened.

Man, I don’t even know where to begin…

North Korea isn’t palestine’s ally. I don’t know why you’d think that, as it makes no sense. Maybe Bush’s axis of evil speech? But he wasn’t referring to palestine, or for that matter, saying that any of those guys were allies. I mean, WTF would North Korea’s contribution to the war effort be, exactly?

Syria’s got its own problems to deal with – you know, the civil war? I don’t think they’re in much shape to be a key contestant on Battlefield: Palestine.

Iran was Hamas’s ally. That relationship’s looking pretty strained, considering the influence of Turkey, Egypt, Qatar – you know, palestine’s ACTUAL allies. Hey, funny thing – none of those countries are militant-crazy. Egypt, despite being increasingly authoritarian, is spearheading this diplomatic endeavour, and if it weren’t for Morsi, they’d probably still be at each other’s throats.

I really like how you keep pushing for the ‘special relationship’ thing. Newsflash: the US has plenty of allies over there. Egypt, Turkey, SA and Jordan all spring to mind. As for the israelis? They’re a PR nightmare for the US. They’re constantly getting into shit, constantly using disproportionate force – something like 5 israelis died during the rocket attacks, compared to 181 palestinians from the air strikes – basically, Israel’s an embarassment that the US is just stuck with.

It wouldn’t be so bad if there was some benefit to the relationship, if they had resources like SA or served as a buffer zone to ward off the crazies, like Turkey, or if they had some influence in the region, like Egypt. But they don’t have anything like that. Whenever zionists like you try to specify what it is they DO for us, it’s always cast in cultural terms, like they’re ‘one of us’ and the other states are just barbarians or something. Even if that were true – it isn’t – that’s still not a good enough reason to throw pots of money and make over-the-top apologies for them.

I don’t doubt that North Korea and Palestine aren’t direct allies. But, with Syria’s ties to Palestine, Russia’s ties with Syria, Russia’s ties with China, and China’s ties with North Korea… I just put them in the same neighborhood of friends.

Regardless of what PR problems Israel causes for the US, the… oh… wait… you called me a zionist. Here I thought you were being serious.

Moving on. Nope, no one wants to be serious.

 
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^dude, you’re the one not being serious. you realise that Russia has far bigger ties with France than China, right?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:

^dude, you’re the one not being serious. you realise that Russia has far bigger ties with France than China, right?

Why do so many people from the USA (and other western countries) offensively ignore the SCO? Russia and China are on the way to become one and the same country. If they haven’t reached this point yet. And the media coverage about this is – non existent? Seriously, I simply can’t remember that I read anything about the SCO in the Western press. Ever. But to be fair, the SCO was founded with the very purpose to oppose the USA, so it’s no surprise that they don’t get to much love from this country. Just check their homepage and form your own opinion: www.sectsco.org .

 
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I think its more telling that a country like Germany choose to abstain from Voting on the Issue(which is basically the same as voting for it). Even though Germany considers itself to have a eternal debt towards Israel, it shows that most of the European Allies are feed up with Israels behavior. They no longer trust in Israels claims of being willing to negotiate a peaceful 2 State Solution.
Even more telling is that Israel now shits and pisses totally on the few Allies that Voted against the Palestinians, especially the USA who even used its influence to get some of the other states to vote against the Palestinians or at least abstain.
Israel is now not only increasing the number of illegal settlements by 3000 but placing them in Zone they promised the USA that they would not, because the settlements break important land connection between the north and south of the West-bank.

 
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oh boy. they’re making international co-operations, take cover!!

pssh. there are thousands of such co-operative international “governments”. USA, Canada and Mexico have one too. there are several in Africa and the Middle East. it hardly means anything.

the European Union is trying to take it a bit far, but that will never work. oh, and Russia is also a member of G8, and of the Council of Europe. it’s also, along with the USA and Canada, but not China, part of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

 
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Regardless of what PR problems Israel causes for the US, the… oh… wait… you called me a zionist. Here I thought you were being serious.

Moving on. Nope, no one wants to be serious.

Yes, because god forbid you ever call people names in lieu of a ‘serious’ response.

Yes, you are a zionist. You use all the well-rehearsed zionist arguments, make outrageous comparisons to some insidious alliance between the axis of evil (most of the world, according to Frostbringer’s map) and Palestine, and admit no fault on the Israeli side, all while pretending otherwise. It’s silly and transparent.

Recent article on the history of israel/palestine relations with the UN helps cut through the baggage of the recent gaza attacks. Chomsky wrote it, so I assume mytie will cry foul, but regardless it’s well-sourced and pretty informative, IMO.

 
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Jan, I don’t believe in Jewish control over Jerusalem, so no, I’m not a Zionist. I believe that the Jews aren’t going anywhere, but it isn’t some sort of religious right. I’m not a Zionist. I don’t care if you call me names, but come on, at least be accurate. As soon as you called me a Zionist I stopped even analyzing your post, because you’re just going to pin shit on me that has nothing to do with my arguments. I really don’t have the energy to correct all that shit. Like saying I don’t admit Israeli mistakes. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I question their actions too, but it isn’t some sort of mindless anti-Israeli liberal, side with the Palis, bash fest.

This isn’t Avatar. The Palestinians aren’t the Navi. This isn’t some sort of video game, nor fiction book. This is reality, with awful horrible consequences to seemingly positive actions. Care has to be taken, not just haphazardly backing the most insane dictatorship that wants to wipe out the rest of the world, because it is rebelliously vogue. Grow up, and stop trying to “stick it to the man” for the sake of just doing so.

Finally, Chomsky thinks Bush should be tried for war crimes and Hugo Chavez is God incarnate. He’s a fucking nut. He’s what every lib complains about when they complain about how far right Ann Coulter is, but he’s more extreme left than Coulter is right. I caught fucking HELL when I linked something written by Coulter here. I’m sure all of you libs will pat each other on the back for citing a hateful shithead like Chomsky.

 
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Jan, I don’t believe in Jewish control over Jerusalem, so no, I’m not a Zionist. I believe that the Jews aren’t going anywhere, but it isn’t some sort of religious right. I’m not a Zionist.

Zionism is an expressly secular ideology. Try again.

Like saying I don’t admit Israeli mistakes. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I question their actions too, but it isn’t some sort of mindless anti-Israeli liberal, side with the Palis, bash fest.

I have never once heard you make a substantial criticism of israel, or find fault with them in any way. For you it is ALWAYS the palestinians who at fault, and their allies – who, in your mind, are the shadowy forces of evil, like North Korea, China, Russia, etc. I’ve never heard of any those countries giving a shit about what happens in palestine.

This isn’t Avatar. The Palestinians aren’t the Navi. This isn’t some sort of video game, nor fiction book. This is reality, with awful horrible consequences to seemingly positive actions. Care has to be taken, not just haphazardly backing the most insane dictatorship that wants to wipe out the rest of the world, because it is rebelliously vogue. Grow up, and stop trying to “stick it to the man” for the sake of just doing so.

How wonderfully condescending of you.

You know, the last time I was in Israel, I met a fellow canadian there who was a coordinator for a sort of ‘Israel for Dummies’ group. We got to talking over haschish and mint tea, and he told me he’d started out there as an anti-israel activist, but as time went on he – in his words – ‘grew up’, and realized the situation was more complicated than he’d first envisioned. So instead of demonizing israel for a living, he now promoted it for a living. I couldn’t help but point out the incongruity of the idea…so if you’re anti-israel, you’re just a little kid who sees things through rose-tinted lens, but if you’re pro-israel, well then, you’re a mature thinker who knows life is complicated. I suppose that’s a victory of sorts for the pro-palestinian camp, since even ten years ago pro-israelis viewed the conflict as totally black and white, israel being the cause of righteousness, no sticky mudpiles or sensitive areas to leap over. It’s still not much of an improvement though.

I studied israeli politics for six years mate, and invested more time, money and academic reputation into this issue then any of the countless worthy causes closer to home. I’m not playing a fucking video game.

Finally, Chomsky thinks Bush should be tried for war crimes and Hugo Chavez is God incarnate. He’s a fucking nut. He’s what every lib complains about when they complain about how far right Ann Coulter is, but he’s more extreme left than Coulter is right. I caught fucking HELL when I linked something written by Coulter here. I’m sure all of you libs will pat each other on the back for citing a hateful shithead like Chomsky.

Chomsky has various problems but a well-written paper is a well-written paper. Unlike Coulter, he’s also not a goddamn pundit. He’s a political scientist and one of the five most knowledgeable experts on Palestinian analysis in the US today. So go ahead, don’t read him. But don’t fucking compare him to some talk-tabloid trash like Coulter.

 
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Bush SHOULD be tried for war crimes. even if he didn’t commit any. warcrimes were commited, under his authority, he should be tried. if he’s innocent, show it in court.

and you got that “back patting” argument from jhco. yet i disagree that Chomsky is a hateful shithead. and you know i’m not patting Janton on the back, so.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
and you know i’m not patting Janton on the back, so.

Ah, solidarity, comrade.

 
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“I’m not a Zionist you gais GAWD!!!!”

…continues to make NO considered and rational arguments, whilst still supporting Israel’s unilateral moves against anything approaching a peace process.

Also, as for Chomsky vs. Coulter…Chomsky uses things like research and sources, if nothing else.
And as Jan already pointed out, he does a lot more than that.

PS: Didn’t realize you’d spent so much time on the Israeli/Palestinian topic Jan. Degree program of some sort?
Probably not the place, but shout at me.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

I question their actions too, but it isn’t some sort of mindless anti-Israeli liberal, side with the Palis, bash fest.

Problem only two posts by others so far can be consider more or equally mindless to what you have been posting. Most of your claims are just plain false.

The fact is the current Israeli government is not looking for peace, they are trying to use their occupation powers to slowly gobble up as much of the west bank as they can. The idea is to establish “facts” of populated ownership. With the believe that the international community(the only one that has the power too) will not force Israel to stop making these facts or reverse them as long as they do so slowly and while being harassed by Palestinian “terrorism”. So far this has shown to be the case. The west never really cared enough to threaten Israel with Embargoes for violating international laws regarding illegal settlements.
Israel government hopes that they can save their illegal territory gains until it becomes a “historical fact”, just like the boarders of most countries have been shaped by war but are now mostly undisputed because they have been at least historically accepted. Just like the Indians don´t get their land back from the USA.
Problem is the majority of the historical facts Israel aims at where established before the international law was established, which says that what they are doing is illegal. The laws of the institution that gave birth to Israel and laws upon which its right to existence rests.

Now personally i am all for protecting the rights of Israel to exist (*) and see that they need guarantees for their existence. Though more to sooth their fears, they already own Nukes, which makes any claims of a threat of being wiped off of the Map by another country through a war, pathetically stupid. They also need help protecting themselves from the more realistic threats like terrorism, including rockets.
This is something the international community especially the USA could do and should have done a long time ago. Instead of the stupid Iraq war or war in Afghanistan it would have been much better to invest in solving the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
This problem can be solved with out side help considerably easy. Though not without cost(though still lower than the shit in Iraq and Afghanistan).
First threaten Israel with economic embargoes if it does not pull back most of the settlers. Those settlements that do have direct contact to Israel and more importantly do not extend into Palestinian/Jordanian territory in way that disrupts its territorial cohesion and/or make traveling a pain in the ass can keep existing, but only as a 99 year leasehold.

The occupation is taken over by an international coalition force including a minority of Arabic speaking forces(which will help a lot in policing the streets). The international coalition actually take over the government and police duties. Doing away with the existing Palestinian Institutions. Palestinian autonomic government is only allowed on small communal level. But encouraged there so that the Palestinians can get experience with actual domestic politics that is not dominated by foreign affairs.
A new bureaucracy and police force is established. Bureaucrats, police and especially judges are controlled and checked. Radicals and corrupt ones are weeded out.
One of the first jobs of the bureaucracy is to provide individuals with reliable biometric and photo identification. The operating checkpoints established by Israel are taken over(and additional ones established for example Gaza) by the new occupation forces. They will still check the ID´s and do smuggling controls of people traveling but remade to give the traveling people back their dignity. The idea is more to ensure that foreign and to a lesser extent domestic terrorists can not move freely, than to harass, dehumanize and collectively punish the Palestinians(as Israel likes to do now).
With most of the information in the databases can even be more lenient on people with an urgent business who forget or lose their ID´s(the ID´s at least in the Database including registered occupation/place of education).

At the same time a economic push is made similar to the marshal plan. Financed by the international community and Israel(who would need to pay reasonably well for the land-leases and more importantly the water it desperately needs from the Palestinian reservoirs and the Jordanian river(Israel illegally uses 73% of the water gained in the west bank for their own needs and currently even charges money for half of the west-bank water that is supplied to the Palestinians).
The idea of the economic push would be near 100% employment or extra education. So that the Palestinians don´t have time to waste on playing terrorist. Though this means low wages and perhaps lots of make work, though there is reasonably enough work to keep all of them busy for a decade or so.
The affluent society will take care of most of the radical tendencies as long as they are not allowed an early foothold into government.

*though i personally do not extend that to it having a right to exist expressed as Jewish state unless that word is extended to include all Israeli citizens without those citizens needing to take on the Jewish religion, just like i disagree with the fanatics that want to make Egypt a Muslim/sharia state or those who believe that having a history of Christian domination and influence makes a country specially Christian and entitles them to extra rights.

 
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Johnny, I agree with a lot of what you say, but disagree with your assertion that Israel only cares about “gobbling up” the West Bank, not peace. I doubt this because of the land they surrendered to Palestine, including the Gaza strip, as well as giving Sinai to Egypt. They have surrendered quite a bit of land. I mean, they have taken a lot, but if they were truly as land hungry as you say, they would have taken a lot more than they have.

Personally, I’m for a one state solution. Imagine a totalitarian police state, that controls everything, including crime and punishment. That would keep all the citizens in line, and keep them from hurting each other too bad, or going to war with each other. The government would have to force the citizens to intermingle their children in schools, and speaking bad about the other side would be a crime. Teaching their kids to hate would be a crime punishable by severe jail time. The government would last for 200 years, and be run by Denmark, or Portugal, or some uninterested state like that. After the 200 years of Russian style totalitarian brute force, the society would have changed to be more homogeneous. At that point, they could be given their own government back, this time a single democratic state of one people. The new state would be called “Israelstein”.

That example I just gave is obviously a joke, but I’m half serious. The part I’m serious about is that something drastic has to be done, and it has to be something that hasn’t been tried.

 
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Something that hasn’t been tried.
Like granting Palestine a provisional UN status and possibly granting them access to the ICC and other international tribunals?
Great idea!

 
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Palestine has every right to be recognised as an independent state with internationally recognised borders, so the UN decision was the step in the right directio, finally…and land taken by Israel should be returned, as required under international law.

 
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Or they could try coming up with an agreement which is fair to both sides and stands a chance of lasting. The two Oslo agreements remind me in some ways of the 1973 Sunningdale Agreement in Northern Ireland. It was not fully inclusive, and unrealistic both in its wording and expectations. Vaunted as an end to the Irish troubles, it fell apart in less than six months.

Both Oslo agreements, once signed by the PA, effectively gave legitimacy to Israeli occupation, land seizure and control in the West Bank. Worse than that, they legitimised closure, the restriction of movement for both people and goods, which effectively destroyed the Palestinian economy. It created a gulag of Palestinian enclaves guarded by Israeli checkpoints, reminiscent of the way Cyprus was carved up by the Greeks. Israel is constantly accused of reneging on the deal, but all they are really doing is abusing the power it gave them. Both the Americans and the Norwegians failed in their duty to oversee the production of an even-handed agreement.

Personally I would like to see the Americans kept out of any future negotiations, as there will always be suspicions of favouritism if they are involved. I would like to see a relatively neutral and disinterested country, possibly Australia or Japan, taking on the role of broker if the warring parties can ever be got to a negotiating table again. And let the Egyptians, Iranians et al have their say if it helps to bring about a lasting agreement.

 
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Israel NEVER conqured palistine. What happened was that when the nations surrounding Israel and palestine attacked Jordan went through palestine on the way through. When they lost the war and pulled out of Israel they never let go of the palestinian teritories. Later on durring the six day war Israel then took the land from Jordan as a way of showing that they meant business.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Johnny, I agree with a lot of what you say, but disagree with your assertion that Israel only cares about “gobbling up” the West Bank, not peace. I doubt this because of the land they surrendered to Palestine, including the Gaza strip, as well as giving Sinai to Egypt. They have surrendered quite a bit of land. I mean, they have taken a lot, but if they were truly as land hungry as you say, they would have taken a lot more than they have.

No because of two reasons, they did not give not back the land as a gesture of goodwill but because of security reasons and own profit.

The Sinia was an very good deal for Israel it got the first peace contract as well as the first official acknowledgment of its existence and right to existence from an Arabic state. It also helped Israel avoid the pressure Jimmy Carter was puttying on them, because he wanted to solve all the Problems of Near East conflict together with soviet help. This would have meant that Israel would not only have had to give back Sinai but also the West bank and Gaza. Its more complex than this, because there where many more reasons.
But claiming that Sinia was something like a gift willingly given is the opposite of the truth.

The Gaza retreat was done because of Security reasons. The Settlements were hard to defend and practically relied on heavy military presence within Gaza. Israel actually had to do the Job of an occupying force there and police the streets. No building walls or Iron Dome defense systems where feasible because of the density of the population.
Importantly by withdrawing their direct presence they pulled of a great propaganda lie. That they as Occupier are not responsible for the government and policing of the Area. They can now quite freely murder people in Gaza with bombs from Airplanes, where before they would have to send in military “police” to try to capture the individuals and put them on trial. But not only that as occupier they would be responsible for keeping up the infrastructure and supplying the people with necessaries(aka feeding them). Now they can shove that responsibility on the Hamas and use the Embargo too harass the people in Gaza that they could not if they where still seen as the active occupier.
Basically Israel gets full-rights and more as Occupier but none of the Duties. Has the extra luxurious situation of having a convenient radical hateful scape-goat(Hamas) that nobody likes, to get away with more illegal activities.

There was fucking reason why their step was unilateral and they did not use it in negotiations first to get concessions, but instead said to the world(who is mostly ignorant of the motivation Israel has) here look how nice we are bing, how much hate our government is willing to take upon itself from radical settlers, to make a Step towards peace.

That example I just gave is obviously a joke, but I’m half serious. The part I’m serious about is that something drastic has to be done, and it has to be something that hasn’t been tried.

As said Jimmy Carter was the closet to ever solving the Issue. One of the most skilled Presidents in international politics that the USA ever had(though he failed domestically). Because he had a high interested in international affairs and was more interested in results than appearances(working to normalize relations with the soviets and Russia for example). Sadly he jumped the gun on the Israel-Eypt peace deal. Which while a step further both alienated the Russians who felt betrayed by the deal and allowed Israel to address the Issues separately(like the later peace treaty with Jordanian) without needing to make concessions regarding the West-bank and Gaza, land that it believes to be historically Israeli(bible).

Originally posted by jaconater:

Israel NEVER conqured palistine. What happened was that when the nations surrounding Israel and palestine attacked Jordan went through palestine on the way through. When they lost the war and pulled out of Israel they never let go of the palestinian teritories. Later on durring the six day war Israel then took the land from Jordan as a way of showing that they meant business.

Actually Jordan (i am not quite sure about Syria) did not actually intend to invade Israel during the 1948 war but aimed directly at the Palestinian territories. Thats why their armies stopped at the 1948 Israeli border and it only came to skirmishes until the Israeli counter attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan#Under_King_Abdullah_I

Sadly the wikilink is missing a lot of important parts and is bad on the chronological order they present the Data. But it gives at least a bit of insight to see that there was more going on than the generally told history of Israeli against all of the Arab invaders accounts for.

 
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In response to UN recognition of Palestine:

Israel withholding tax revenue

while cramming another 3,000 settlements down the Palestinians’ throats.

It’s shit like this that makes me laugh when people talk about Israel’s willingness to be reasonable, or the idea that they’ve been acting strictly in self defense.

 
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There are somethings that just are right, equality for homosexuals and statehood for Palestinians…these things are examples where the people who are against it are backward, hostile, self centred individuals. There is no reason to deny Palestinians what is theirs. History will not absolve Israel, but condemn it as a genocidal regime.

 
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I agree, but now when Israel exists, the same mistake shouldn’t be made again… by “removing” Israel. There should be a peaceful solution to this.

 
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Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

There are somethings that just are right, equality for homosexuals and statehood for Palestinians…these things are examples where the people who are against it are backward, hostile, self centred individuals. There is no reason to deny Palestinians what is theirs. History will not absolve Israel, but condemn it as a genocidal regime.

i agree. but there’s a very important question to be answered: why did every single first world nation with the only exception of Iceland vote against it?

are we all really this corrupted?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

There are somethings that just are right, equality for homosexuals and statehood for Palestinians…these things are examples where the people who are against it are backward, hostile, self centred individuals. There is no reason to deny Palestinians what is theirs. History will not absolve Israel, but condemn it as a genocidal regime.

i agree. but there’s a very important question to be answered: why did every single first world nation with the only exception of Iceland vote against it?

are we all really this corrupted?

Every single first world nation voted against what? Certainly not the UN promoting Palestine to nonmember observer status as most First World nations voted for or abstained.

 
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observer status is not statehood. i went with the chart provided by Frostbringer on the previous page.

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by TuJe:

Palestine was recognised as an observer state, not sure about all the implications of that.

Also, does this mean that now there has to be a declaration of war if the rocket strikes were to continue?

The way I understood it, they can now benefit from some of the privileges granted to UN members without actually being a member yet. The most important thing there seems to be that they could now start a trial against Israel in The Hague.

Israel won’t get tried for anything, the US will not allow it…