Palestine being recognized as a separate state page 5

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Originally posted by MyTie:
Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

If you want to say you’re acting pissy because people are agruing against you, you can just say you’re pissy because people are arguing against you.

 
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Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

no, that is how you are arguing. you do realise that also many Jews and even many Israelis are highly critical of what Israel is doing, aren’t you? but Israel isn’t taking notice of any of it.

YOU are the one justifying anything Israel does based on bias and racism. we on the other hand condemn the means used by both, but have a problem with your bias, and with Israel’s unforthcoming, complacent lack of self-criticism; it’s bigotry, hypocrisy and double standart.

 
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They have an army with which they can enforce law, and stop terrorist attacks, just like they used it to take over Gaza in the battle of Gaza.

Sure, they have an army to enforce the law, but that doesn’t stop renegade groups from breaking the law. They have no way of ensuring that the headbangers don’t start firing rockets again, and no way of stopping it completely.

Why do they need to offer anything?

Trust, or rather the total lack of it. To get the parties round a negotiating table again (which I see as the only possible long term solution), it helps if a few concessions are made by all sides to show a bit of willing, to oil the wheels. Something small on both sides would probably suffice, but what has Hamas got other than an end to violence. A permanent end to it is the purpose of the negotiations, and it’s unrealistic to expect Hamas to concede that unconditionally before anything has been discussed. A short term ceasefire might be enough, but I don’t see any signs of Israel responding to that. They have the whip hand, and they’re not giving a inch. Palestine is already on its knees and being propped up financially by international donations. I can’t see that there are any points that they can concede to get the ball rolling.

The Palestinians are in a corner, and they can’t take a step back because there’s nowhere for them to go. The Israelis could, but as you say, they believe they have no incentive. I would have thought that it was in their long term interests, but it looks as if they prefer the ethnic cleansing option, certainly as far as the West Bank is concerned. Slowly but surely Israel is making itself the pariah of the world. Twenty years ago I was much more sympathetic towards Israel, but the more I find out about what they are getting up to, the more I am turning against them. The Israelis have better PR than Hamas, but that can only paper over the cracks for so long.

If Israel leaves Gaza alone, Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to attack Israel. And if Hamas stops all attacks on Israel, and denounces terrorism, Israel won’t have a reason to attack Gaza. But neither side is willing to do that.
This of course is VERY difficult as the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis are unfortunately against peace. I really don’t know what sort of catastrophic event needs to happen to make all these people realize how stupid they are, but until then, the governments of the Palestinians and the Israelis will continue to reflect the popular opinion of their respective people, which is to not cooperate with the other side.

That depends on what you mean by Israel leaving them alone. Does that include lifting the blockade and allowing the free movement of goods and people, allowing the tens of thousands of Palestinians who used to work in Israel to look for work there again, a stop to military incursions etc. etc., or do you mean just leaving them to rot in what has effectively become an open prison? And I don’t see anything happening without some form of negotiation, after which both sides can claim to have made gains in exchange for concessions. But while the public on both sides may say they are against a settlement, once advantages start to materialise they can change their minds very quickly. But why should governments reflect popular opinion anyway? They frequently don’t. Every time they implement a tax increase they are going against popular opinion, but it doesn’t stop them doing it. It’s a government’s duty to ignore public opinion and do whatever is best for the country. And is that really public opinion anyway, rather than some conveniently perceived public opinion conjured up by the governments on both sides?

Sadly I have to agree that both sides in this conflict are their own worst enemy. I hope it doesn’t take a catastrophe to bring them to their senses, but I see no sign of a negotiator capable of coaxing them to deal with each other.

And none of this has much direct bearing on the West Bank. How would you deal with that?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

no, that is how you are arguing. you do realise that also many Jews and even many Israelis are highly critical of what Israel is doing, aren’t you? but Israel isn’t taking notice of any of it.

YOU are the one justifying anything Israel does based on bias and racism. we on the other hand condemn the means used by both, but have a problem with your bias, and with Israel’s unforthcoming, complacent lack of self-criticism; it’s bigotry, hypocrisy and double standart.

Could you please quote me doing this. Quote where I am justifying everything Israel does.

In fact, I’m mocking you for saying that I unquestioningly support Israel. That’s the only card you guys know how to play. Unsurprisingly your response is… wait for it… that I unquestioningly support Israel. The drum beat is getting repetative, dude.

If you actually read the stuff I post you’d see you are barking up the wrong tree. Here is what I’ve posted in the last two pages:

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.
Here’s another one:
No, Israel has made many mistakes, and should be held accountable, but the blockade itself is necessary.
In before: You just support Israel unquestioningly. You guys are more predictable than pull string toys.

 
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so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

In before: You just support Israel unquestioningly. You guys are more predictable than pull string toys.

oh, you can predict me retroactively. that’s impressive.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

and you believe they can achieve this by occupation, progressive encroaching, vilification, homicide, blocking food aid to cause famine, sectioning of what’s left of their territory, shooting at peaceful protestors, trying to corrupt the media to have double standarts in coverage in their favor, not complying to UN resolutions whenever it doesn’t suit them, building houses on their territory to provoke further attacks to then point to and say “see, we need to defend ourselves”….

yeah.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

and you believe they can achieve this by occupation, progressive encroaching, vilification, homicide, blocking food aid to cause famine, sectioning of what’s left of their territory, shooting at peaceful protestors, trying to corrupt the media to have double standarts in coverage in their favor, not complying to UN resolutions whenever it doesn’t suit them, building houses on their territory to provoke further attacks to then point to and say “see, we need to defend ourselves”….

yeah.

No. That’s why I didn’t say that. But, some of these points are not so black and white. If rockets are launched from the top of a building, and that building is bombed to stop the rockets, and there were civilians in that building, I fault the Palestinians, not the Israelis. As far as this being an “occupation”, I’d also dispute. An occupation is when a foreign nation places troops in another country. If Israel is on foreign land, where exactly is it’s home land? I mean, where is it occupying from? And building houses is a provocation? “Vilification” is a colorful way of being biased against their complaints against Palestine, which are often legitimate. “Progressive encroachment” is also interesting way of describing a situation where Israel actually controls less land now than it has in the past. It’s given up quite a bit of land, particularly the Sinai, to Egypt, which has become a weapons highway.

Here’s the deal, dude. I have in the past few posts, cited specific things that Israel is doing wrong, and things it could be doing better. I also cite specific problems that Palestine has had with their actions. I recognize the problems with both side. You, on the other hand, are only presenting one side of the issue, and painting it as negatively as possible. Then, when someone represents both sides, in a rebuttle to you, you accuse THEM of being one sided. When you do that, it’s somewhere between irritating and comical.

 
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An occupation is when a foreign nation places troops in another country. If Israel is on foreign land, where exactly is it’s home land? I mean, where is it occupying from?

yeah, that’s a good question. where is it occupying from? but clearly in what you’re saying is that you believe that Israel has the right to the whole thing, and the Palistineans are the foreigners. you never explicit this, but it is always implicit in what you’re saying, and you argue from there. then you wait for us to counter argue, and blame us for bias. that is deceptional.

And building houses is a provocation?

yes. time and time again, Israel had expanded it’s borders into Palestinian territory, justifying it as necessary security buffer zone, and then built housing in that zone, waiting for Palestinian rogue groups to shoot rockets at it (or perhaps Israelian infiltrators to shoot rockets at it from the Palestinian residential side), so they can then claim a new bufferzone around the old one, etc.

“Vilification” is a colorful way of being biased against their complaints against Palestine, which are often legitimate.

i’ve seen words and generalisations used that…even from you.

Progressive encroachment” is also interesting way of describing a situation where Israel actually controls less land now than it has in the past. It’s given up quite a bit of land, particularly the Sinai, to Egypt, which has become a weapons highway.

oh come on now. no where near as much as what Palestine has been forced to “give up”. claiming a whole bunch of additional land you have no actual right to, for whatever reason valid or not, and then “giving it up”, and using that as a justification for whatever other lands you steal and don’t give back is a horrible way of arguing, a horrible double standart and bias. unless you assume might is right.

You, on the other hand, are only presenting one side of the issue, and painting it as negatively as possible.

no, i’m only responding to you. if your friends start beating people up, and you start justifying their actions arbitrarily, and i criticize that for bias and bigotry, i am justified in presenting one side of the issue, because that side deserves representation. i’m not the best man for it, but i can give it a try.

the point is that nobody is saying that shooting rockets at residential areas or suicide bombings are a good thing, and that they’re the good guys, and we should support them etc. so there is nothing here for me to criticize and represent Israels side. but there is you justifying Israel’s actions in just that manner, which i am criticizing. hence i am representing one side.

also your criticism of Israel is only some nice solutions that they aren’t using, but you’re still justifying any action of them that gets criticized, while things you’ve said about Palestinians is pretty vile. you can’t claim neutrality based on that.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by softest_voice:

More Israeli reaction to UN status

Tell me again about how the Palestinians should just seek a peaceful resolution.
No, really, tell me.

I like it when you guys just blast away in your ignorance.

So, some Israeli troops seized some computers, and this is the reason that Palestine should abandon any hope of peace and seek war? And to think otherwise is “blasting ignorance”?

Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

LOL, way to miss the point completely.
You didn’t even read the article, did you?

The “couple of computers” taken by the Israelis belonged to peaceful Palestinian organizations, the kind of advocacy groups that have been trying to reach a peaceful solution to the problems there.
Palestine is granted provincial status and Israel reacts with additional settlements, a major point of contention; withholding tax revenue that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians; and now they’re conducting raids on peaceful organizations.

So yeah, when I laugh at your “both sides” bullshit, I have good reason.
You’re deluded.

You play at being fair to both sides, yet dismiss outright, obvious moves of an aggressive nature by Israel.

 
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It’s not that the Israelis are excused for taking the computers, or that their actions are not aggressive. The article is completely fine. The problem I have is you using it as grounds for insisting that Palestine abandon everything but war, and that believing otherwise is “blasting ignorance”.

Well, they took computers that didn’t belong to them, aggressively, so I guess it makes sense that Palestine should continue launching rockets into their civilian sectors. I mean… what the fuck. I don’t even…

 
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Wow.
Way to put words in my mouth.

I have in no way condoned Palestine’s attacks.
What I have been trying to point out is that Israel has a nasty habit of putting the screws to Palestine, at critical moments.
Like this one.
Palestine gets some recognition from the UN, and what does Israel do?
Essentially, throw a political and military temper tantrum.

  • They stop paying tax revenue owed to Palestine; economic attack.
  • They announce plans for 300 more settlement families in disputed and/or occupied territory; social/political attack.
  • They raid the offices of PEACEFUL Palestinian organizations, confiscating equipment and materiel those groups need to function; political/military attack.

Like, look at the pattern. It’s really, REALLY obvious, but you flat out refuse to acknowledge it.
Yet you’re all too happy to paint Palestine with the “aggressor” brush at the drop of a hat when they launch a futile rocket attack.
Are those rocket attacks right? Nope.
But then neither is a vastly superior force doing everything in its power to provoke those attacks, including the constant killing of civilians, and a pattern of economic and social oppression that’s akin only to Apartheid.

Fucking. Joke.
Your supposed even-handedness is a fucking joke.

 
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So a couple of posts where you say, essentially, “oh yeah, well Israel has done some bad stuff I guess” as compared to the constant statement that Palestine is evil, doesn’t deserve statehood; that everything Israel does is basically justified by the Palestinian rocket attacks; that Hamas, though elected by the Palestinian people, isn’t really valid; that every individual Palestinian’s actions are somehow justification for all of the air strikes Israel has launched.
The condemnation of Palestinian strikes that have killed civilians, along with the “well collateral damage” attitude towards Israel’s continuing campaign of killing anyone and everyone in a building/block…

Show me again where you’ve actually taken a level look at this situation?
Oh, that’s right. You haven’t. From post number one, you’ve either advocated against statehood for Palestine, or for the Zionist agenda.
Only after being called out repeatedly on your lopsided ideas about the situation did you start to feign some sort of “both sides” nonsense.

Gimme a break.

 
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Where did you get the idea the one MyTie posted was a ‘rage’ face? To me it looked like he had constipation.

 
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What I have been trying to point out is that Israel has a nasty habit of putting the screws to Palestine, at critical moments.

The problem is that for the Palestinians, they are all critical moments. The governments of Gaza and the West Bank are barely on speaking terms, Hamas and Fatah are at each other’s throats and there is no united Palestinian front. Politically and militarily they are fragmented. I see Hamas in particular as having talked themselves into a corner from which there is no escape other than to continue fighting. The people have been so systematically brutalised that they can see no future other than endless violence. This is to a considerable extent a self-inflicted wound. Israel sees a weak and disorganised enemy, and is going for the kill.

The Palestinians really have made an almighty mess of their situation, and I find it hard to see an end to it unless Israel starts to soften its attitude and agrees to a renewed attempt at negotiation.

 
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but as Israel has learned from their bedfriend the USA, negotiation only serves compromises, which leads to giving up getting what you want, which is another word for losing, so i don’t think it’s ever going to happen.

 
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I see Hamas in particular as having talked themselves into a corner from which there is no escape other than to continue fighting. The people have been so systematically brutalised that they can see no future other than endless violence. This is to a considerable extent a self-inflicted wound. Israel sees a weak and disorganised enemy, and is going for the kill.

The other big problem there is groups like Islamic Jihad…Hamas is starting to sound less radical, so the more radical groups, the ones that won’t abide by the ceasefire, will start to take a more active role. Hamas can’t afford to tone down their radicalism, because they’ve still got the memory of the PLO at the back of their heads – as soon as the PLO recognized Israel and agreed to a permanent peace, they were politically dead (which is also why, as softest pointed out, it’s absurd to suggest Arafat was just faking peace).

And on the other side of it, Israel’s attitude to the PLO is the other reason Hamas has to stay the course. The PLO/PA were a lot more radical than they are today, not compared to Hamas, but definitely not peaceful, UN-hopping moderates. Israel helped Hamas get where they are today by increasingly marginalizing the PLO from negotiations. They wanted a fractured Palestine – divide and conquer. The problem is that they haven’t conquered, they’ve just ensured that if they don’t get a peace deal with the current group of crazies, they’ll have an endless stream of ever more militant crazies taking the place of their worn-out predecessors.

 
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Good points from beau and jan about the political problems within the Palestinian camp.
Infighting, combined with assassinations carried out by the Israelis, ad there’s pretty much a constant power vacuum.
Into which more and more radical people step.

 
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Originally posted by softest_voice:Gimme a break.

So saying that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest supporter, simply isn’t saying enough? I don’t know what I can do to please you. But then again, I wasn’t trying to.

For people like you, there is never enough. There is no compromise. There is no middle ground. The conversation, with you, is quite distasteful.

 
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Originally posted by The conversation, with you, is quite distasteful.

Then don’t

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

For people like you, there is never enough. There is no compromise. There is no middle ground. The conversation, with you, is quite distasteful.

You should get along really well then.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by softest_voice:Gimme a break.

So saying that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest supporter, simply isn’t saying enough? I don’t know what I can do to please you. But then again, I wasn’t trying to.

For people like you, there is never enough. There is no compromise. There is no middle ground. The conversation, with you, is quite distasteful.

Sorry. Could you point me to the post in which you said Israel should be supporting Palestine?
I guess I missed that one.