Palestine being recognized as a separate state page 5

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Originally posted by Pereking:

I never claimed my sources were not biased, only that they represented Israel’s stance on the matter. I understood Johnny’s statement wrong, and was responding to Johnny’s claim that Israel claims to be the occupier of Gaza, while he in fact meant that he thinks of Israel as an occupier of Gaza.

No, i claimed that Israel claims the rights of an occupier and is one according to International Law.

Yes, you can fault Israel for the air strikes if Israel as the occupier of Gaza is responsible for policing of the territory. But I disagree that you can fault them while not faulting Hamas.

Why can i not fault Israel for its wrong doing, without faulting the Hamas(at first it was the Palestinians in general) for what they are doing wrong?
Fairness? By all fairness nothing the Hamas does legitimates or even rationalizes Israels actions. Even though the Hamas are clearly bad guys from the get go. Being worse than the Hamas is quiet an achievement, considering it is outright an terrorist group.

What you are saying is that there are two solutions to this problem: Israel re-invades Gaza, either to bring down the Hamas and delegate power to Palestinian institutions or to enforce its own military policing, and Israel dropping all control of Gaza’s airspace and coastline.


But you are ignoring the fact that Hamas is not powerless in this. Thinking that they are justified to resort to terrorism is preposterous. Hamas has the option to cease all hostilities towards Israel, denounce terrorism and accept Israel as a country by its 1967 borders. This is a viable and possible option for Hamas, but they choose the option of terrorism instead. They are equally as guilty in wanting this conflict to continue as Israel is.

1. There is third option. Letting someone else like the UN take control of Gaza and the West-bank. Currently Israel has some Allies like Germany who could not refuse such a request on terms that would be acceptable to Israel(if it actually intended for Peace).
2. Hamas is primarily funded do to there being a conflict in Israel. They like the current Israeli Government have an self interest in keeping the conflict going. So sure the Hamas is equally guilty in wanting this conflict to continue, but the Hamas is certainly much weaker. How exactly does the Hamas stopping its crimes stop Israel from preforming its crimes?
P.S. i don´t think Hamas crimes can be justified.

The only point I am trying to make in this thread is that both of these factions are guilty of the situation they are in. Both of these factions have ways in which they can end it, and both of these factions refuse to take them, and refuse peace. That is all.

Personally i find it clear that the Hamas has no real way to end the conflict on their own, while Israel has. I also find it clear for everyone that the Hamas is a terrorist organisation and as such one should not await much if anything from them. But from a Nation that is supposed to be our Ally and receives tons of Money and Military Equipment one can certainly demand more, much much more.
I also note the fact that Israel(and the Palestinians) certainly are suffering from an on going case of (P)TSD thats being reinforced by the actions of both sides for the last 60+ years. Both sides can´t act rationally any longer. Thats why i would like to see the international community get involved into actually solving the problem. Which basically at this point means beating sense into both sides(though preferably through economic measures in the question of Israel).

 
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But I disagree that you can fault them while not faulting the Hamas.

So do I, and I’ve not claimed anything else.

Hamas has the option to cease all hostilities towards Israel, denounce terrorism and accept Israel as a country by its 1967 borders. This is a viable and possible option for Hamas, but they choose the option of terrorism instead.

That option really isn’t available, certainly not a blanket reversion. The 1967 borders include the Golan Heights, which even America regards as Syrian territory and their ocupation as a violation of the fourth Geneva Convention. Since Israel refuses to back down, and Syria is in no position at the moment to negotiate with them, that little problem is just going to have to wait. It would also involve a lot of compulsory reloacation of civilian populations, and neither side wants that. We’ve all seen on television the fuss that accompanies the relocation of small groups of Israelis who have settled illegally, according to international definitions. If several hundred thousand people are forced to move, the shit’s really going to hit the fan. It’s been tried many times, and it doesn’t work. When India was partitioned in 1948, an estimated million people died during the ensuing civilian violence. That’s just a single example.

Also bear in mind that Hamas does not represent all shades of Palestinian opinion. It is one of many groups vying for power and influence, just the dominant one at the moment. If Israel really wants peace, it will have to deal with a lot more groups than just Hamas if the peace is to last.

But you are ignoring the fact that Hamas is not powerless in this. Thinking that they are justified to resort to terrorism is preposterous.

Now I’ve seen the results of terrorism first hand. It’s not pretty, and I don’t condone it. The problem is that if you divorce Hamas from terrorism, they are virtually powerless. It’s the only card they hold. For them to call a ceasefire so they can negotiate is a big step for them, and one which would require Israel to make a similarly big concession. I don’t see much sign of that happening.

 
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No, i claimed that Israel claims the rights of an occupier and is one according to International Law.

OK, not sure how that is different.

Why can i not fault Israel for its wrong doing, without faulting the Hamas(at first it was the Palestinians in general) for what they are doing wrong?

I simply referred to Hamas as Palestinians, which they are. Obviously other Palestinian groups do not fire rocket at Israel. And yes you can, I just think you are wrong in doing it.

Fairness? By all fairness nothing the Hamas does legitimates or even rationalizes Israels actions. Even though the Hamas are clearly bad guys from the get go. Being worse than the Hamas is quiet an achievement, considering it is outright an terrorist group.

You may not agree with Israel’s actions against Hamas but the fact remains that if Hamas wasn’t a terrorist organization to begin with, Israel would have 0 international backing towards any of its actions. And you can’t tell me international backing doesn’t matter to Israel, they were ready to invade Gaza again last month, but they didn’t, due to international pressure.

2. Hamas is primarily funded do to there being a conflict in Israel. They like the current Israeli Government have an self interest in keeping the conflict going. So sure the Hamas is equally guilty in wanting this conflict to continue, but the Hamas is certainly much weaker. How exactly does the Hamas stopping its crimes stop Israel from preforming its crimes?

As I said above, Israel is backed by the western nations. It has financial dealings with most of them. If the Gaza Palestinians presented themselves as helpless and peace seeking, Israel would cave to international pressure and at the very least have no reason to blockade Gaza or target anyone or anything in it. So Hamas might be weaker but they have just as much opportunity to end this conflict as Israel does, and therefore should suffer just as much blame. And I just want to remind you that they were elected by the Palestinians. It’s not like they couldn’t overthrow them if the majority didn’t agree with their actions (as evidenced by the arab spring). So maybe the Hamas has a self interest in keeping the conflict going, but do the Palestinians? As I said in an earlier post, both of the majorities of the factions are at fault here. The majority of Israelis don’t want peace because they don’t want to go back to 1967 borders, and the majority of Palestinians don’t want peace because they want to gain control over more territory than they currently occupy.

Personally i find it clear that the Hamas has no real way to end the conflict on their own, while Israel has. I also find it clear for everyone that the Hamas is a terrorist organisation and as such one should not await much if anything from them.

As I’ve said earlier, they do have a way, just as Israel has a way. If Hamas stops the terrorism, Israel will have to stop any actions they are taking against the Gazans (perhaps even the illegal settlements. I’m sure there isn’t as much international pressure against that issue partly because of the Palestinian’s choice of government).

A reminder of how the current blockade situation started in the first place:
The 2006–2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority were economic sanctions imposed by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East against the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian territories following the January 2006 legislative elections that brought Hamas to power.
Israel and the Quartet said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:

  • Renunciation of violence,
  • Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as the PLO had done), and
  • Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.

Following the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip in June 2007, Israel and the Quartet countries eased some of the sanctions on the West Bank, in order to support the Fatah government, while at the same time tightening the blockade of the Gaza Strip, in order to put pressure on the Hamas administration.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

That’s all they had to do, show that they wanted peace, and not war, and eventually, with Israel having no reason to blockade or attack them, they would be left alone.

Both sides CAN end this situation, but choose not to. Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

As for beauval-

So do I, and I’ve not claimed anything else.

That was addressed to Johnny

The 1967 borders include the Golan Heights

That has nothing to do with the Palestinians, and belongs to the Syrian peace negotiations. By 1967 border I meant that Gaza and the West Bank are not a part of Israel. They can even say that they don’t recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in that statement, it would still show that they are FOR peace and not against it.

Also bear in mind that Hamas does not represent all shades of Palestinian opinion. It is one of many groups vying for power and influence, just the dominant one at the moment. If Israel really wants peace, it will have to deal with a lot more groups than just Hamas if the peace is to last.

Currently, Hamas represents the government in Gaza, and Fatah represents the Palestinian government in the West Bank. As the people who represent the Gazan Palestinians, they have the power to stop the terrorism and enforce law upon them.

It’s the only card they hold.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Only card they hold against who? I can’t see how their terrorism can possibly be beneficial to their standing with Israel and the world.

 
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More Israeli reaction to UN status

Tell me again about how the Palestinians should just seek a peaceful resolution.
No, really, tell me.

I like it when you guys just blast away in your ignorance.

 
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Currently, Hamas represents the government in Gaza, and Fatah represents the Palestinian government in the West Bank. As the people who represent the Gazan Palestinians, they have the power to stop the terrorism and enforce law upon them.

Actually they don’t. They arguably have the power to stop their own people, but they don’t represent all Palestinians in Gaza. It’s bandit country, and if other groups decide that there will be no surrender and they will fight to the death, there’s not a lot that Hamas can do about it. As we saw in Northern Ireland today, when the headbangers decide to go on the rampage, no political force can stop them – they are a law unto themselves.

If Hamas renounced terrorism and got no concessions from Israel, politically they are dead. Quite possibly literally too. You live there in Israel, so you must be aware of that. Other than that, the Palestinians really have nothing to offer. How terrorism affects their standing in the world is not the issue. In their view, without it the Palestinians will become the forgotten people again.

Now a ceasefire of some kind is a prerequisite for Israel to enter into negotiations. In order to get that, the Israelis are going to have to come up with a pretty big carrot, which they are showing no signs of doing, not that I can see anyway. They seem quite content to wage a war of attrition and force the Palestinians to move out over a period of time. As I believe someone pointed out earlier, they want the land but they don’t want the people who are currently living on it.

In a way, Israel doesn’t need to negotiate. The Oslo agreements gave them everything they needed. Alright, they’ve had to stretch some points here and there, and put up some bullshit arguements to justify their actions, but the whole deal was very much in their favour. As a citizen or resident of Israel, can you show me any indication that the present government wants to come to an understanding with the Palestinians on anything other than their terms?

 
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Actually they don’t. They arguably have the power to stop their own people, but they don’t represent all Palestinians in Gaza. It’s bandit country, and if other groups decide that there will be no surrender and they will fight to the death, there’s not a lot that Hamas can do about it.

Actually, they do. Following the Battle of Gaza Hamas gained political control over the Gaza strip and ousted Fatah. They have an army with which they can enforce law, and stop terrorist attacks, just like they used it to take over Gaza in the battle of Gaza.

If Hamas renounced terrorism and got no concessions from Israel, politically they are dead.

I agree, and that is because the majority of Palestinians, just like the majority of Israelis, do not want peace, but rather to gain territory they do not currently occupy. That is why a terrorist organization is in charge of Gaza, and not a peaceful one.

Other than that, the Palestinians really have nothing to offer. How terrorism affects their standing in the world is not the issue. In their view, without it the Palestinians will become the forgotten people again.

Why do they need to offer anything? If all they want is for the world to recognize them as a country, I would think that they WOULD care about how the world views them. And if they go to the U.N and get recognized as Palestine, the country, separate from Israel, I would think that they wouldn’t have to worry about people forgetting about them.

Now a ceasefire of some kind is a prerequisite for Israel to enter into negotiations. In order to get that, the Israelis are going to have to come up with a pretty big carrot, which they are showing no signs of doing, not that I can see anyway. They seem quite content to wage a war of attrition and force the Palestinians to move out over a period of time. As I believe someone pointed out earlier, they want the land but they don’t want the people who are currently living on it.

I get the feeling that you haven’t really been reading my posts. Let me quote myself:

If Israel leaves Gaza alone, Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to attack Israel. And if Hamas stops all attacks on Israel, and denounces terrorism, Israel won’t have a reason to attack Gaza. But neither side is willing to do that.
This of course is VERY difficult as the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis are unfortunately against peace. I really don’t know what sort of catastrophic event needs to happen to make all these people realize how stupid they are, but until then, the governments of the Palestinians and the Israelis will continue to reflect the popular opinion of their respective people, which is to not cooperate with the other side.

Israel is not interested in ending the conflict because it allows Israel to continue cultivating its illegal settlements which is what the majority in Israel want. Hamas is not interested in ending the conflict because the majority of Palestinians want Israel to not exist.

I personally believe that Israel has less incentive to stop, because it suffers minor consequences. But unfortunately the only way to rally the world against Israel’s actions is for Hamas to stop its violence, thus denying Israel of a way to blame their actions on Palestinian actions.

So again: Both sides are at fault. Both sides CAN end this conflict. Neither side WANTS to end this conflict. This makes me sad. The end.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

If you want to say you’re acting pissy because people are agruing against you, you can just say you’re pissy because people are arguing against you.

 
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Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

no, that is how you are arguing. you do realise that also many Jews and even many Israelis are highly critical of what Israel is doing, aren’t you? but Israel isn’t taking notice of any of it.

YOU are the one justifying anything Israel does based on bias and racism. we on the other hand condemn the means used by both, but have a problem with your bias, and with Israel’s unforthcoming, complacent lack of self-criticism; it’s bigotry, hypocrisy and double standart.

 
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They have an army with which they can enforce law, and stop terrorist attacks, just like they used it to take over Gaza in the battle of Gaza.

Sure, they have an army to enforce the law, but that doesn’t stop renegade groups from breaking the law. They have no way of ensuring that the headbangers don’t start firing rockets again, and no way of stopping it completely.

Why do they need to offer anything?

Trust, or rather the total lack of it. To get the parties round a negotiating table again (which I see as the only possible long term solution), it helps if a few concessions are made by all sides to show a bit of willing, to oil the wheels. Something small on both sides would probably suffice, but what has Hamas got other than an end to violence. A permanent end to it is the purpose of the negotiations, and it’s unrealistic to expect Hamas to concede that unconditionally before anything has been discussed. A short term ceasefire might be enough, but I don’t see any signs of Israel responding to that. They have the whip hand, and they’re not giving a inch. Palestine is already on its knees and being propped up financially by international donations. I can’t see that there are any points that they can concede to get the ball rolling.

The Palestinians are in a corner, and they can’t take a step back because there’s nowhere for them to go. The Israelis could, but as you say, they believe they have no incentive. I would have thought that it was in their long term interests, but it looks as if they prefer the ethnic cleansing option, certainly as far as the West Bank is concerned. Slowly but surely Israel is making itself the pariah of the world. Twenty years ago I was much more sympathetic towards Israel, but the more I find out about what they are getting up to, the more I am turning against them. The Israelis have better PR than Hamas, but that can only paper over the cracks for so long.

If Israel leaves Gaza alone, Hamas wouldn’t have a reason to attack Israel. And if Hamas stops all attacks on Israel, and denounces terrorism, Israel won’t have a reason to attack Gaza. But neither side is willing to do that.
This of course is VERY difficult as the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis are unfortunately against peace. I really don’t know what sort of catastrophic event needs to happen to make all these people realize how stupid they are, but until then, the governments of the Palestinians and the Israelis will continue to reflect the popular opinion of their respective people, which is to not cooperate with the other side.

That depends on what you mean by Israel leaving them alone. Does that include lifting the blockade and allowing the free movement of goods and people, allowing the tens of thousands of Palestinians who used to work in Israel to look for work there again, a stop to military incursions etc. etc., or do you mean just leaving them to rot in what has effectively become an open prison? And I don’t see anything happening without some form of negotiation, after which both sides can claim to have made gains in exchange for concessions. But while the public on both sides may say they are against a settlement, once advantages start to materialise they can change their minds very quickly. But why should governments reflect popular opinion anyway? They frequently don’t. Every time they implement a tax increase they are going against popular opinion, but it doesn’t stop them doing it. It’s a government’s duty to ignore public opinion and do whatever is best for the country. And is that really public opinion anyway, rather than some conveniently perceived public opinion conjured up by the governments on both sides?

Sadly I have to agree that both sides in this conflict are their own worst enemy. I hope it doesn’t take a catastrophe to bring them to their senses, but I see no sign of a negotiator capable of coaxing them to deal with each other.

And none of this has much direct bearing on the West Bank. How would you deal with that?

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

no, that is how you are arguing. you do realise that also many Jews and even many Israelis are highly critical of what Israel is doing, aren’t you? but Israel isn’t taking notice of any of it.

YOU are the one justifying anything Israel does based on bias and racism. we on the other hand condemn the means used by both, but have a problem with your bias, and with Israel’s unforthcoming, complacent lack of self-criticism; it’s bigotry, hypocrisy and double standart.

Could you please quote me doing this. Quote where I am justifying everything Israel does.

In fact, I’m mocking you for saying that I unquestioningly support Israel. That’s the only card you guys know how to play. Unsurprisingly your response is… wait for it… that I unquestioningly support Israel. The drum beat is getting repetative, dude.

If you actually read the stuff I post you’d see you are barking up the wrong tree. Here is what I’ve posted in the last two pages:

I don’t believe Israel deserves unquestioned support. I don’t believe Palestine should be a state without first agreeing to peace.
Here’s another one:
No, Israel has made many mistakes, and should be held accountable, but the blockade itself is necessary.
In before: You just support Israel unquestioningly. You guys are more predictable than pull string toys.

 
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so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

In before: You just support Israel unquestioningly. You guys are more predictable than pull string toys.

oh, you can predict me retroactively. that’s impressive.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

 
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Sure, they have an army to enforce the law, but that doesn’t stop renegade groups from breaking the law. They have no way of ensuring that the headbangers don’t start firing rockets again, and no way of stopping it completely.

But that wouldn’t matter if they denounced terrorism and actively worked to stop it. If they did that, The world will stop viewing them as a terrorist organizaion, regardless of whether some people are still trying to fire rockets at Israel or not.

Trust, or rather the total lack of it. To get the parties round a negotiating table again (which I see as the only possible long term solution), it helps if a few concessions are made by all sides to show a bit of willing, to oil the wheels. Something small on both sides would probably suffice, but what has Hamas got other than an end to violence. A permanent end to it is the purpose of the negotiations, and it’s unrealistic to expect Hamas to concede that unconditionally before anything has been discussed.

I haven’t talked about peaceful negotiations between both sides, because currently, that cannot happen. The only way to get peace is for the world to pressure Israel into agreeing to it. Everything I’ve said the Palestinians should do, I meant they do for the WORLD, not for Israel. Once the world sees they are ready to be their own self governing country, they WILL support them, whether Israel likes it or not.

I would have thought that it was in their long term interests, but it looks as if they prefer the ethnic cleansing option, certainly as far as the West Bank is concerned.

It is in their long term interests, obviously. But the people who realize that are in the minority. Don’t know about the ethnic cleansing, it’s not like they’re murdering people in the west bank and taking their homes, they’re just letting people set their own homes on lands that do not belong to them.

That depends on what you mean by Israel leaving them alone. Does that include lifting the blockade and allowing the free movement of goods and people, allowing the tens of thousands of Palestinians who used to work in Israel to look for work there again, a stop to military incursions

Yes, that’s what I meant.

But while the public on both sides may say they are against a settlement, once advantages start to materialise they can change their minds very quickly.

I agree, but that would take either government to agree to negotiate. But neither side wants to.

But why should governments reflect popular opinion anyway? They frequently don’t. Every time they implement a tax increase they are going against popular opinion, but it doesn’t stop them doing it. It’s a government’s duty to ignore public opinion and do whatever is best for the country. And is that really public opinion anyway, rather than some conveniently perceived public opinion conjured up by the governments on both sides?

The governing parties for both sides (Hamas and Likud) were voted for because of their ideologies. Hamas’ Ideology is that Israel should be terrorized, while Likud’s ideology is that Israel should not take any of the Palestinian’s shit. These are who the people of both sides gave power to. And as I’ve said, I don’t know what it would take to show these people their stupidity.

And none of this has much direct bearing on the West Bank. How would you deal with that?

Currently, the west bank isn’t the problem. The event that inspired this thread in the first place proves that the world is for the peaceful approach that the west bank government has taken. The problem is that Gaza is also a part of the Palestinian country to be, but it is ruled by Hamas. Both of these sides need to unite and Hamas need to stop their aggression in order for the world to be able to fully support them and start pressuring Israel into making agreements with them.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

and you believe they can achieve this by occupation, progressive encroaching, vilification, homicide, blocking food aid to cause famine, sectioning of what’s left of their territory, shooting at peaceful protestors, trying to corrupt the media to have double standarts in coverage in their favor, not complying to UN resolutions whenever it doesn’t suit them, building houses on their territory to provoke further attacks to then point to and say “see, we need to defend ourselves”….

yeah.

 
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Originally posted by OmegaDoom:
Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by OmegaDoom:so what mistakes do you believe Israel has made?

Like I said many times in this thread before, they haven’t worked hard enough at peace. They are making the same mistakes that the allies did after WW1, and USA did with Cuba when Castro came to power. Instead of helping a troubled people, in a difficult time, they are restricting them as much as possible. I’ve said it before, that Israel should be Palestine’s biggest ally, providing them the most support, not necessarily to the government, but to the people themselves. Think of the Marshall Plan after WW2, or Reconstruction after the American Civil War. Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the people themselves, and turn the tide of violence, in addition to fighting the extremists and curbing the flow of weapons.

and you believe they can achieve this by occupation, progressive encroaching, vilification, homicide, blocking food aid to cause famine, sectioning of what’s left of their territory, shooting at peaceful protestors, trying to corrupt the media to have double standarts in coverage in their favor, not complying to UN resolutions whenever it doesn’t suit them, building houses on their territory to provoke further attacks to then point to and say “see, we need to defend ourselves”….

yeah.

No. That’s why I didn’t say that. But, some of these points are not so black and white. If rockets are launched from the top of a building, and that building is bombed to stop the rockets, and there were civilians in that building, I fault the Palestinians, not the Israelis. As far as this being an “occupation”, I’d also dispute. An occupation is when a foreign nation places troops in another country. If Israel is on foreign land, where exactly is it’s home land? I mean, where is it occupying from? And building houses is a provocation? “Vilification” is a colorful way of being biased against their complaints against Palestine, which are often legitimate. “Progressive encroachment” is also interesting way of describing a situation where Israel actually controls less land now than it has in the past. It’s given up quite a bit of land, particularly the Sinai, to Egypt, which has become a weapons highway.

Here’s the deal, dude. I have in the past few posts, cited specific things that Israel is doing wrong, and things it could be doing better. I also cite specific problems that Palestine has had with their actions. I recognize the problems with both side. You, on the other hand, are only presenting one side of the issue, and painting it as negatively as possible. Then, when someone represents both sides, in a rebuttle to you, you accuse THEM of being one sided. When you do that, it’s somewhere between irritating and comical.

 
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An occupation is when a foreign nation places troops in another country. If Israel is on foreign land, where exactly is it’s home land? I mean, where is it occupying from?

yeah, that’s a good question. where is it occupying from? but clearly in what you’re saying is that you believe that Israel has the right to the whole thing, and the Palistineans are the foreigners. you never explicit this, but it is always implicit in what you’re saying, and you argue from there. then you wait for us to counter argue, and blame us for bias. that is deceptional.

And building houses is a provocation?

yes. time and time again, Israel had expanded it’s borders into Palestinian territory, justifying it as necessary security buffer zone, and then built housing in that zone, waiting for Palestinian rogue groups to shoot rockets at it (or perhaps Israelian infiltrators to shoot rockets at it from the Palestinian residential side), so they can then claim a new bufferzone around the old one, etc.

“Vilification” is a colorful way of being biased against their complaints against Palestine, which are often legitimate.

i’ve seen words and generalisations used that…even from you.

Progressive encroachment” is also interesting way of describing a situation where Israel actually controls less land now than it has in the past. It’s given up quite a bit of land, particularly the Sinai, to Egypt, which has become a weapons highway.

oh come on now. no where near as much as what Palestine has been forced to “give up”. claiming a whole bunch of additional land you have no actual right to, for whatever reason valid or not, and then “giving it up”, and using that as a justification for whatever other lands you steal and don’t give back is a horrible way of arguing, a horrible double standart and bias. unless you assume might is right.

You, on the other hand, are only presenting one side of the issue, and painting it as negatively as possible.

no, i’m only responding to you. if your friends start beating people up, and you start justifying their actions arbitrarily, and i criticize that for bias and bigotry, i am justified in presenting one side of the issue, because that side deserves representation. i’m not the best man for it, but i can give it a try.

the point is that nobody is saying that shooting rockets at residential areas or suicide bombings are a good thing, and that they’re the good guys, and we should support them etc. so there is nothing here for me to criticize and represent Israels side. but there is you justifying Israel’s actions in just that manner, which i am criticizing. hence i am representing one side.

also your criticism of Israel is only some nice solutions that they aren’t using, but you’re still justifying any action of them that gets criticized, while things you’ve said about Palestinians is pretty vile. you can’t claim neutrality based on that.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by softest_voice:

More Israeli reaction to UN status

Tell me again about how the Palestinians should just seek a peaceful resolution.
No, really, tell me.

I like it when you guys just blast away in your ignorance.

So, some Israeli troops seized some computers, and this is the reason that Palestine should abandon any hope of peace and seek war? And to think otherwise is “blasting ignorance”?

Everything Israel does is genocide, and everything Palestine does is justified, and any differing opinion is just idiots being unquestioningly supportive of Israel and completely biased.

LOL, way to miss the point completely.
You didn’t even read the article, did you?

The “couple of computers” taken by the Israelis belonged to peaceful Palestinian organizations, the kind of advocacy groups that have been trying to reach a peaceful solution to the problems there.
Palestine is granted provincial status and Israel reacts with additional settlements, a major point of contention; withholding tax revenue that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians; and now they’re conducting raids on peaceful organizations.

So yeah, when I laugh at your “both sides” bullshit, I have good reason.
You’re deluded.

You play at being fair to both sides, yet dismiss outright, obvious moves of an aggressive nature by Israel.

 
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It’s not that the Israelis are excused for taking the computers, or that their actions are not aggressive. The article is completely fine. The problem I have is you using it as grounds for insisting that Palestine abandon everything but war, and that believing otherwise is “blasting ignorance”.

Well, they took computers that didn’t belong to them, aggressively, so I guess it makes sense that Palestine should continue launching rockets into their civilian sectors. I mean… what the fuck. I don’t even…

 
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Wow.
Way to put words in my mouth.

I have in no way condoned Palestine’s attacks.
What I have been trying to point out is that Israel has a nasty habit of putting the screws to Palestine, at critical moments.
Like this one.
Palestine gets some recognition from the UN, and what does Israel do?
Essentially, throw a political and military temper tantrum.

  • They stop paying tax revenue owed to Palestine; economic attack.
  • They announce plans for 300 more settlement families in disputed and/or occupied territory; social/political attack.
  • They raid the offices of PEACEFUL Palestinian organizations, confiscating equipment and materiel those groups need to function; political/military attack.

Like, look at the pattern. It’s really, REALLY obvious, but you flat out refuse to acknowledge it.
Yet you’re all too happy to paint Palestine with the “aggressor” brush at the drop of a hat when they launch a futile rocket attack.
Are those rocket attacks right? Nope.
But then neither is a vastly superior force doing everything in its power to provoke those attacks, including the constant killing of civilians, and a pattern of economic and social oppression that’s akin only to Apartheid.

Fucking. Joke.
Your supposed even-handedness is a fucking joke.

 
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So a couple of posts where you say, essentially, “oh yeah, well Israel has done some bad stuff I guess” as compared to the constant statement that Palestine is evil, doesn’t deserve statehood; that everything Israel does is basically justified by the Palestinian rocket attacks; that Hamas, though elected by the Palestinian people, isn’t really valid; that every individual Palestinian’s actions are somehow justification for all of the air strikes Israel has launched.
The condemnation of Palestinian strikes that have killed civilians, along with the “well collateral damage” attitude towards Israel’s continuing campaign of killing anyone and everyone in a building/block…

Show me again where you’ve actually taken a level look at this situation?
Oh, that’s right. You haven’t. From post number one, you’ve either advocated against statehood for Palestine, or for the Zionist agenda.
Only after being called out repeatedly on your lopsided ideas about the situation did you start to feign some sort of “both sides” nonsense.

Gimme a break.

 
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Where did you get the idea the one MyTie posted was a ‘rage’ face? To me it looked like he had constipation.

 
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What I have been trying to point out is that Israel has a nasty habit of putting the screws to Palestine, at critical moments.

The problem is that for the Palestinians, they are all critical moments. The governments of Gaza and the West Bank are barely on speaking terms, Hamas and Fatah are at each other’s throats and there is no united Palestinian front. Politically and militarily they are fragmented. I see Hamas in particular as having talked themselves into a corner from which there is no escape other than to continue fighting. The people have been so systematically brutalised that they can see no future other than endless violence. This is to a considerable extent a self-inflicted wound. Israel sees a weak and disorganised enemy, and is going for the kill.

The Palestinians really have made an almighty mess of their situation, and I find it hard to see an end to it unless Israel starts to soften its attitude and agrees to a renewed attempt at negotiation.