Gun Issues page 41

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Originally posted by ColtArmy:
Originally posted by donseptico:

Add the word UNIVERSAL before ‘gun control limits violence’ and it’s a more reasonable statement… not flawless, we know, but while it’s really easy for the criminals in chicago to get a gun from outside the city, city wide controls are easily flouted / ignored (including by the otherwise ‘law abiding’ citizen).

I see where you are going with this. You want, more or less, one set of gun control laws worldwide, such as those proposed by the United Nations. Pray tell why we need such a set of laws governing every country as one?

The bold part…
I think ya’re going a little overboard w/ yer “interpretation” there.
Well, ya did say “less”.
I think THAT would be the better end with which to begin.
 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
Most importantly because there are no controlled boarders between Chicago and the Rest of the country and Chicago excels at having major social and economical problems that make Crime skyrocket.

Gun control limits gun violence is what I’ve been told. I look at Chicago and see that it has failed overwhelmingly. Gangs still have mountains of guns there. Civilians don’t. There are other cities that have massive social and economical problems in this country without near the violence.

From what i hear from over here, Chicago is pretty exceptional in just how bad those Problems are and how long they have been that bad.
And as pointed out but ignored by you without controlled boarders many Gun control Laws are going to be near impossible to enforce. Especially when Enforcement is already severely limited in regards to other-ways of keeping the gun flow towards illegal procession.
Here a tidbit from Foxnews:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/04/chicago-has-tough-gun-laws-but-leads-nation-in-gun-violence/

Note how easy Straw purchases are made. Theres are reason why several 100.000 guns a reported stolen every year in the USA. Either criminals are going out of there way to target gun owners specifically to get their guns(so much for the legend of guns being a deterrent) or the holes in gun laws have invited a flourishing business of supplying criminals with guns.

1. Because gun ownership rates have not skyrocketed. The amount of guns owned has increased while the amount of owners has stayed quite stable.
2. Crime in general has fallen over the past decade+.

But more guns = more violence as I have consistently been preached to. You aren’t rebutting my points, just more or less restating them.

No. Your showing off how stupid you can pretend to be, by intentionally over simplifying and thus misinterpreting what people are actually telling you.
Its like pretending to be a teenage hormone idiot when confronted with e=mc² and simplifying it by saying “speed is cool” and then criticizing that your being told “speed is cool” even though movement is associated with heat.

Please feel free to quote where anyone advocating more gun control on this site thats not a troll, has clearly and without any type of limitation said “more guns = more violence”.

Those Killers that choose gun free zones as the site of their crimes are generally looking to die, the site is only chosen to give them a bit more time, before the inevitable happens (those with too much time often commit suicide or even turn themselves in).

I agree they are looking to die, but they choose gun free zones because they can slaughter as many as possible before they are either gunned down or commit suicide. This way, because of the mass slaughter, they are guaranteed to become infamous via a 24-hour news cycle.

Yes but they don´t need to target actual declared gun free zones. There are enough practically gun free zones either way. From pools to kindergartens. Personally i would agree that gun free zones are quite useless unless they can be enforced. A simple sign stops no one.

You don´t need a licenses to buy or own a Car. I would also like to point out that some illegals actually do have driver licenses.

And you don’t need a license to get a gun!

In most countries you need a firearms license to buy or own a gun legally, sarcasm on/ except in the USA of course where we all know all you need is a stolen drivers license of a fat bearded lady /sarcasm off.
Really, as far as i can see it seems to me that the gun lobbyist are intentionally making it easy for criminals to get guns so that the gun business dose not lose A some of their most important customers(the criminals) and B keeps many non-criminals sufficiently paranoid too own a gun too(since the criminals are armed).
Hell if i lived in the USA i would certainly own a gun too, since the work of my Girlfriend has repeatedly involved me becoming entangled in cases of domestic violence. Having had to fend off several angry and abusive Husbands and Boyfriends.

 
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Originally posted by ColtArmy:
Originally posted by donseptico:

Add the word UNIVERSAL before ‘gun control limits violence’ and it’s a more reasonable statement… not flawless, we know, but while it’s really easy for the criminals in chicago to get a gun from outside the city, city wide controls are easily flouted / ignored (including by the otherwise ‘law abiding’ citizen).

I see where you are going with this. You want, more or less, one set of gun control laws worldwide, such as those proposed by the United Nations. Pray tell why we need such a set of laws governing every country as one?

Uh, no… this is where I roll my eyes… Universal as in the ‘same for everyone within the country’ rather than the different legislations currently in force between chicago and the wider state of Illinois, for example (As that’s the example that Issendorf raised). In fact, you may of surmised this for yourself from the part where I said ‘but while it’s really easy for the criminals in chicago to get a gun from outside the city, city wide controls are easily flouted / ignored (including by the otherwise ‘law abiding’ citizen).’

If I’d meant Global (see that means covering the whole planet) I’d of said so.

Incidentally, with regard to the UN Arms Trade Treaty (which I assume you’re talking about), plans to regulate the international trade of arms. covering the trading of conventional firearms which does include the likes of those used by collectors and sportsmen and women, as well as tanks, guided missile systems, warships, etc. (The goal of the treaty is to come up with internationally recognized rules governing the trade of guns and ammo).

Now, the key word in that paragraph is emboldened for you… INTERNATIONAL… as far as I’m aware the individual states of the US are not treated as separate countries and the provisions of the proposed treaty would therefore not apply to interstate sales and transfers, etc.

EDIT: *unless your elected officials decided to make new laws to bring in such requirements for domestic sales, transfers, etc… which is a matter for you to take up with your legislature should they decide to do so.

 
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Twilight

Do you really think there’s a connection though? Illegal and volatile drugs such as meth, I would believe, but prescription drugs responsible for shootings? Just seems like a stretch.

Really? Do you think they are any less potent, or mind/mood altering? Especially with personal dosing? Also, that boogeyman Methamphetamine is not significantly different from Ritalin, or the more accurate name Methylphenidate. Hell you can even get prescribed Methamphetamine for your ADD and weight loss ails under the brand name Desoxyn.

The legality of various drugs has far more to do with politics and economics then their threat to public health.

Jhco,

It should be noted that most of the users of psychotropic drugs do not have the potential to be mass murderers; yet all of the mass murderers listed here had been prescribed one or more psychotropic drug. However, the number of people who could potentially experience one or more adverse side effects was shocking!

However! It is well worth noting we are falling into a causation/correlation trap. If we consider that most mass shooters are deranged, then it is fair to assume they are also medicated. Because they are mentally ill, they go on a spree, also because they are mentally ill, they are receiving medication. Not that I think the medications role should be discounted entirely.

 
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Really? Do you think they are any less potent, or mind/mood altering? Especially with personal dosing? Also, that boogeyman Methamphetamine is not significantly different from Ritalin, or the more accurate name Methylphenidate. Hell you can even get prescribed Methamphetamine for your ADD and weight loss ails under the brand name Desoxyn.

The legality of various drugs has far more to do with politics and economics then their threat to public health.

Look, I’ll start out by saying that even though meds like Ritalin may be potent, yes they are probably way less potent than shit like Crystal Meth (I’m going to purposely exclude marijuana from this conversation, because I think it’s harmless).

Also, when something is prescribed, it is at least overseen by someone. My husband, for instance, gets Ritalin through the VA, but they only give him a month’s worth at a time and monitor him in between prescriptions. That scenario is a lot different than the uncontrolled substances and factors present on the street.

That being said, I guess I mostly agree with the explanation you give to the correlation/causation argument posed to jhco below mine.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

From what i hear from over here, Chicago is pretty exceptional in just how bad those Problems are and how long they have been that bad.
And as pointed out but ignored by you without controlled boarders many Gun control Laws are going to be near impossible to enforce. Especially when Enforcement is already severely limited in regards to other-ways of keeping the gun flow towards illegal procession.

Chicago has some of the more restrict gun control laws in the country. they had the most strict laws until NY surpassed them recently. In fact, Chicago just lost a lawsuit filed against them for some of their laws…and lost. Because of these laws, the honest citizen is at the mercy of the gang-bangers.

Straw purchases are illegal in all states and at the federal level. You cannot buy 10 guns and walk out the door. If you purchase 3 a form is filled out and sent to the BATFE, who then investigate it. The same thing with long arms. You cannot buy a handgun in another state that you don’t reside in, that is federal law. You can buy a long arm in another state. The only straw purchases that were rampant were the FBI’s Fast and Furious.

Just a FYI. I used to hold an FFL and believe me, they are always monitoring the dealers and trying to trick them into making a mistake. Dealers keep very tight records and know where every gun has gone through a registry book they keep, along with the 4473’s that are filled out by each purchaser. the 4473 is the document dealers use to do background checks and the approval number from the BATFE is recorded on that form. These forms are kept in a vault, along with the dealers firearms while closed. If a dealer feels that you are not legitimate, even with the background check, that dealer can cancel the sale at any time.

 
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JHCO the only thing you need is an ID. Now we know how many teenagers buy alcohol with fake IDs how many criminals do you think use them for something like a gun? And you can’t buy a large number in one go but you can simply visit 5 different shops and buy 2 each(this is why a lot of people here want registration). And it only takes one corrupt dealer who isn’t to strict in his background check to sell a whole lot of guns to bad people. And then there is the deal with just stealing guns from peoples homes when you are breaking into them anyway and selling them of to other criminals.

 
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From what i hear from over here, Chicago is pretty exceptional in just how bad those Problems are and how long they have been that bad.
And as pointed out but ignored by you without controlled boarders many Gun control Laws are going to be near impossible to enforce.

Which is more or less what I’ve been saying – that these gun control measures aren’t a silver bullet, as much as the President would like. We more or less agree on this – I’m not sure why you are seeking to try to create an argument when there isn’t one to be had.

As for Chicago being exceptionally bad in terms of socio-economic problems, it doesn’t even make the Top 10.

No. Your showing off how stupid you can pretend to be, by intentionally over simplifying and thus misinterpreting what people are actually telling you.
Its like pretending to be a teenage hormone idiot when confronted with e=mc² and simplifying it by saying “speed is cool” and then criticizing that your being told “speed is cool” even though movement is associated with heat.

I’m more or less mocking the DNC’s platform of gun control and their wishful thinking that decreasing a civilian’s ability to purchase a gun will create this peaceful utopia. I apologize if it wasn’t clearer, but generally my mocking takes a subtler form.

Really, as far as i can see it seems to me that the gun lobbyist are intentionally making it easy for criminals to get guns so that the gun business dose not lose A some of their most important customers(the criminals) and B keeps many non-criminals sufficiently paranoid too own a gun too(since the criminals are armed).

Very interesting point, one that I don’t necessarily disagree with.

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

JHCO the only thing you need is an ID. Now we know how many teenagers buy alcohol with fake IDs how many criminals do you think use them for something like a gun? And you can’t buy a large number in one go but you can simply visit 5 different shops and buy 2 each(this is why a lot of people here want registration). And it only takes one corrupt dealer who isn’t to strict in his background check to sell a whole lot of guns to bad people. And then there is the deal with just stealing guns from peoples homes when you are breaking into them anyway and selling them of to other criminals.

You have some facts wrong Thijser. The dealer is not in charge of a background check. He calls the BATFE and the federal government does the background check. they have a site when you call. You enter the buyer and all of his information, the firearm and serial number and type of firearm. You then wait until the government gives a yes or no. The buyer cannot take possession of the firearm until he/she has been approved. The dealer is just a go between. If the buyer then hits several stores for firearms, the BATFE will pick up on it and investigate. If a dealer sells a firearm without this background check, it will show up in his registration book and when he is inspected he will be in a heap of trouble.

Yes, firearms do get stolen. Most people keep them in a gun safe for security. These are the facts. I gave them to everyone so they will at least have an idea of the real regulations for buying a firearm. If you are under 21 years of age, you are not allowed to buy a handgun or ammunition for one. I can go deeper into this if your wish.

What Obama is doing is either redundant or against our Constitution. He is not legally allowed to make law with the signing of an EO, but this is exactly what he is doing.

 
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We should ban everything that could be used as a weapon for everybody in the world while were at it.

That includes every handheld object conceivable or conceived by man.

We should also ban breaking the law, cuz then everybody would magically be nice to each other.

Who’s with me!?!?!?!

/sarcasm

 
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Originally posted by PatriotSaint:


/sarcasm

Really, thanks for telling me, otherwise I’d have missed it.

Add /hyperbolic nonsense next time you feel like venting your spleen, since that’s all it amounts to.

 
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I wanted to vent something but I just couldn’t come up with anything……………….sigh…………..I do agree with saint though. It seems every time anything slightly bad happens you get all of these pacifists coming out with there tears and feel good need to make new laws so this can never happen again. Yet I don’t feel any safer from everyday issues.

 
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I can’t believe we are the only night owls tonight. Where is tenco?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

I wanted to vent something but I just couldn’t come up with anything……………….sigh…………..I do agree with saint though. It seems every time anything slightly bad happens you get all of these pacifists coming out with there tears and feel good need to make new laws so this can never happen again. Yet I don’t feel any safer from everyday issues.

You’re right. Far better to cross your fingers and hope things change.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by jhco50:

I wanted to vent something but I just couldn’t come up with anything……………….sigh…………..I do agree with saint though. It seems every time anything slightly bad happens you get all of these pacifists coming out with there tears and feel good need to make new laws so this can never happen again. Yet I don’t feel any safer from everyday issues.

You’re right. Far better to cross your fingers and hope things change.

Who said anything about change?

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by PatriotSaint:


/sarcasm

Really, thanks for telling me, otherwise I’d have missed it.

Add /hyperbolic nonsense next time you feel like venting your spleen, since that’s all it amounts to.

Okay.

/sarcasm

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by jhco50:

I wanted to vent something but I just couldn’t come up with anything……………….sigh…………..I do agree with saint though. It seems every time anything slightly bad happens you get all of these pacifists coming out with there tears and feel good need to make new laws so this can never happen again. Yet I don’t feel any safer from everyday issues.

You’re right. Far better to cross your fingers and hope things change.

It’s more the fact that the “pacifists” are incredibly naive (or incredibly stupid) thinking recycled gun control policies are going to work now when they did more-or-less nothing in the past.

 
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Relevant satire from C&H…

 
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You know what’s even better than cartoons? Writing shit to explain why said cartoons matter. Feel free to take notes.

It’s more the fact that the “pacifists” are incredibly naive (or incredibly stupid) thinking recycled gun control policies are going to work now when they did more-or-less nothing in the past.

No, I agree completely.

…well, let me rephrase that. I’d have to revoke my passport to argue that gun control in the US is working. It’s retarded. So, to that extent, any gun control is a step in the right direction. Ban assault weapons? Seems logical. Did Obama do that? Not on your life.

Hence you need a sort of gun control that works. is it going to come from obama? Maybe not. From the opposition? Definitely not. The reps haven’t got shit. They have literally nothing to help progress beyond the status quo. I’d back any party that had something worthwhile, but nothing’s come up – and, you know, I can’t actually vote. We aren’t idiots with guns the way you are in the US. And by ‘we’ I mean everyone in the west except the USA. Sorry mates, but it’s true. You’re indisputable morons when it comes to guns. If I wasn’t rooting on the US to keep together for the next super-power showdown, i’d be betting on the chinese; fascists or not, at least they don’t take gunfire from nobody.

This issue is actually the major stopping point of a push to help the US survive as a superpower status. Vika’s Cylon God knows we don’t want the Chinese or any other shits coming to power, but the average American At Large is way more dangerous than the average Chinese or Russian At Large. Your dumbass gun policy has led to greater amounts of dumbasses gaining the ability of ‘murderous spree’ than anytime in human history. Given your diminished status as of late, why the fuck would anyone want to kow-tow to your authority? Believe me, take that shit off the books, and no one will care if you blow up a few abortion clinics or teach your kids that god made the world in a little under a week.

EDIT: Please forgive anyone who accuses me of trolling. They are retards.

 
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Jan, first of all none of the people from other countries gives a shit if the US survives as a superpower. In fact, they would love to see the US become a 3rd world country, I figured that out from all of the hate directed at the country and the people who live here.

Will Obama get gun-control handed to him? Very doubtful unless he pulls more of his by-passing congress. This has nothing to do with crime. It is politics just like it has been every time we have had to fight these same battles. I have been there for most of them in the last 60 years and this is just another attempt at disarming the citizen. Our modern government hates the second amendment, it is the biggest thing standing in their way of taking total control of our country.

I watched a video the other night concerning a bill to allow the citizens of California to vote whether or not they wanted to divide California into smaller states. All the bill covered was letting the people have a voice in the matter and the assembly of California didn’t think the people were smart enough to make that decision. The bill failed. This is exactly how our politicians in Washington view the people of the US. Sure we argue left and right, but if we are honest, neither party wants to hear from the people except at election time.

So I ask you Jan, why do you want gun control? Do you feel as others that our country is unworthy of being a superpower? Do you think the people of this country should give up their rights to please a power hungry government? Do you really think any kind of gun-control will stop the crime? And I find it odd that you have judged all of the American people as idiots incapable of owning guns, while your country is much more civilized.

You be careful what you wish for. China won’t put up with the crap on this forum. You and others are grasping for any straw that will help you make your points. Again I will say, what we do in our country is really none of your business, nor is it anyone else’s if they don’t live here. So get off your high horse and ease up a bit.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Vika’s Cylon God knows we don’t want the Chinese or any other shits coming to power.

You might have to put that comment in context if you would like me to understand it, Janton. I get the reference that Cylons come from Battlestar Galactica, but I have not seen anything of the remake of that show save a few episodes at the beginning. Your comment does not apply to anything from the original series, so it must have come from the remake.

Could you explain it in context, please?

On the matter of Chinese dominance, I will admit that it does not matter which country does the research so long as it gets done, but no I cannot see their current political situation accepting much of the work I do, or the goals of transhumanism in general, as being something they would tolerate if they were not trying to equal the west in all economic areas.

 
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So, to that extent, any gun control is a step in the right direction.

Sometimes maintaining the status quo is more prudent than creating more laws. Sometimes the secondary effects of a law produce more issues than the issues the law intended to fix.

Ban assault weapons? Seems logical.

There are logical arguments on both sides of the assault weapon ban.

Hence you need a sort of gun control that works.

Everyone (more or less) agrees on that. We just don’t know what that gun control actually entails.

Your dumbass gun policy has led to greater amounts of dumbasses gaining the ability of ‘murderous spree’ than anytime in human history.

And yet the only gun control policy you mention is banning assault weapons. Newsflash: we did it and very little happened. If you could shed some of your Canadian wisdom with some new gun control policies, we could further the discussion. As it is, you’ve contributed nothing new to what the US needs to do vis-a-vis gun control except we need to do something. To which I would say, no shit, Sherlock.

 
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If you ban the guns, it will be just one more step for our government toward the line of socialism. Anyway, if you ban guns from American citizens the killing will not decrease, the people that kill others are usually the people that ignore the laws. BANNING GUNS WILL NOT STOP THE KILLING.

 
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Originally posted by gunshooter4570:

If you ban the guns,

Just a heads up beforehand, no rational person here or in most places in the U.S are actually trying to ban all forms of guns.

it will be just one more step for our government toward the line of socialism.

Oh great, more people who don’t know what socialism is.

Anyway, if you ban guns from American citizens the killing will not decrease, the people that kill others are usually the people that ignore the laws. BANNING GUNS WILL NOT STOP THE KILLING.

Well obviously, people are going to find other ways to kill each other. Just not with guns.

 
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That’s right, and guns are for our defence, and when the government bans small things, soon they will start banning muxh larger things.