Gun Issues page 44

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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by tenco1:you two are in a timeless ideological deadlock that will go on for every reincarnation of you two. It will never stop, it will always be of opposites, it will always happen in every reality, it is, the Ultimate Debate.

Yeah, you are right. At least I am trying to hold a conversation with others.

First: I’m understanding what tenco means about the “Ultimate Debate” being a “timeless ideological deadlock” to be: the polarization represented by conservatism vs. liberalism
Of course, that “definition” is obviously biased in favor of conservatism.

This one is obviously more unbiased and makes the comparisons via the more moderate considerations. All one need do to “see” the comparisons of the more “extreme” ideologies is, basically, listen to jake-o’s whining about “liberals this, liberals that”,,,and to his often typically distanced-from-center “conservative” views…esp. on Gay Rights & abortion.

And, we shouldn’t leave out the Nolan Chart

This person offers only his own personal viewpoint as he understands the two ideologies—the more mainstream ones and the more extremist ones.

This person offers a very comprehensive comparison and I found it to be a very interesting read. I say this because he specifically states (see below) that his comparative definitions of the two ideologies are of the “ends, NOT the middle”. And, do I really need remind ya of my “bell-curve” application that the “middle” (shades-of-gray) contains the HUGE MAJORITY of ppl,,,,while the “White & Black” ends represent very, VERY small numbers of ppl?

His assessment is meant to show the acmes of the two ideologies.
He shows this when he says:
“There are two major ideologies in American politics. Understanding these helps us understand each other politically and enables us to make sense of what at times seems senseless. These ideologies are labeled conservative and liberal. Although these terms have changed definitions over the years, I will use them as they are currently defined.”

“If you took a strip of paper that was blue on one end and gradually changed colors until it was red at the other end, you would end up with a spectrum of colors. At some point toward the center of the strip you could get into a few arguments as to whether the color was red, purple, or blue. It is that way with the liberal and conservative ideologies, so I will be concentrating on the ends of the strip, so to speak, and not the middle.”

Now, to address jhco’s assessment of what I present on this forum…esp. in how it focuses on this “ultimate debate” between “conservatism & liberalism”,,as discussed above.

When jhco says: “Karma, it is interesting that all you did was critique my post and try to assassinate my character with out any input into the conversation. Why did you make a post again?”
And, says: “At least I am trying to hold a conversation with others.”
All he is doing nothing more than his (usual?) typical diversionary trick in an effort to avoid having to actually address challenges to his personal ideologies he presents on this forum.

While he, quite oddly, singles me out as his (only?) protagonist…he obviously is demonstrating another of his quirky penchants of ignoring that which he is loathe to accept as a reality. By this, I mean that quite a few others—in various areas//degrees—also make challenges to what he presents as being “ideological correct”.

The “many of us” have often pointed out his hyperbolism, his failure (aversion to//deliberate avoidance of?) to respond to criticisms of his stances, his penchant for absurd sources, and his believe that his extremely limited anecdotal experiences somehow equate to the quintessential “American way”.

As I have stated before (several times), the ONLY knowledge I have of anyone on this forum is derived from what they present here. So, obviously I can ONLY address jhco’s viewpoints he makes…both his personal ones and the ones he believes to be held by particular groups of Americans AND ppl on this forum from other nations.

He specifically “goes off the deep end” when he asserts opinions on the viewpoints of ppl on this forum who aren’t American. Of specific and sadly pathetic note, he vilifies their critical-of-America viewpoints as being “invalid”.

So, yeah…he & I are in a “timeless debate”.
But, much like the “fun-pun” that speaks of a battle of wits: one of the parties refuses to engage because he prefers to not fight an “unarmed” person.
Well, he so much of the time… greatly fails to either even show up for the “battle”. Or he, in some odd fashion…“brings a knife to a gunfight”. And, even that “knife” often isn’t very “sharp”.

Again, I point out that this isn’t solely I who demonstrates this opinion of his viewpoints & how his presents them & defends them. Yet, he (for some very odd reason?) can focus ONLY on me. He even goes so far as to STATE that I am stalking him on this forum….all because he can only see that it is he that I “take issue with”. Of course, I do make comment on the viewpoints of others.

And yes, he certainly does have “conversations”.
Frankly, I fail to see the merit of his many anecdotal offerings…such as the one w/ constant updates on how his “rental house project” is coming along. He offers these tidbits on his personal life in no way relating to anything being discussed.

Don’t get me wrong on this.
I don’t think all of the SERIOUS DISCUSSION on this forum can’t, at times, have some “lighter moments”.
I just think they should be more focused on the OP,,,
rather than oddly obtuse renderings of personal life that have the distinct “flavor” of those silly Christmas Letters

 
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The problem with gun control laws is that they only solve the problem in the moment. The point I see made by pro-gun advocates is that you can take away a gun, but you still have a murderer; and that is exactly right. The point that pro-gun control advocates make is that implementing laws to reduces the chance of a potential-murderer arming themselves; which is debatable. But even if it was true, it fails to administer the real problem; that there are people who want to take a weapon and massacre innocent people.

I feel that both sides have some valid claims to their opinions. But none of those reasons ever administer the real problem. A problem exists in our society which causes people to consider going on killing sprees, and nothing is being done about it.

 
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Originally posted by SinisterSnake:

The problem with gun control laws is that they only solve the problem in the moment. The point I see made by pro-gun advocates is that you can take away a gun, but you still have a murderer; and that is exactly right. The point that pro-gun control advocates make is that implementing laws to reduces the chance of a potential-murderer arming themselves; which is debatable. But even if it was true, it fails to administer the real problem; that there are people who want to take a weapon and massacre innocent people.

I feel that both sides have some valid claims to their opinions. But none of those reasons ever administer the real problem. A problem exists in our society which causes people to consider going on killing sprees, and nothing is being done about it.

thats why i suggested that they take competency tests before being allowed to own a firearm. to see if they are mentally fit to. though not a perfect system, but a psych evaluation should be had with specific, trusted psychologists.

 
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Originally posted by SinisterSnake:

A problem exists in our society which causes people to consider going on killing sprees, and nothing is being done about it.

How do you know?

 
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Originally posted by thijser:

Because for some reason tracking guns is wrong but tracking mobile phones is fine….

they should start tracking people.
help get kidnapped people and help catch criminals on run.
make implant almost impossible to get out without certain expertise

 
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Originally posted by SinisterSnake:

The problem with gun control laws is that they only solve the problem in the moment. The point I see made by pro-gun advocates is that you can take away a gun, but you still have a murderer; and that is exactly right.

No, its wrong. There is quite a difference between someone who has a will and desire to do something, but lacks the means and someone who has both the will and means.

..the real problem; that there are people who want to take a weapon and massacre innocent people.

I disagree, the real Problem is that there are people who want and can take a weapon and use it to kill innocent people. Addressing either the want and can or even better both are viable solutions to the Problem. I can basically care less about someone wanting to kill me, if he can´t and never will can.

A problem exists in our society which causes people to consider going on killing sprees, and nothing is being done about it.

This is simply not true. A lot is already being and has already been done about addressing the want side of the issue. That you don´t know that certainly does show that more could be done. But it also shows something else. It shows together with you not even presenting a suggestion of how the want side could be addressed, that there is little real interest from many of those who are trying to focus the issue away from gun-control.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

First of all, when you fire a 12 gauge shotgun, which that is, there is recoil and the muzzle of the gun comes up. His isn’t. Your shoulder is forced back and his isn’t. But the big thing is the smoke coming out of the barrel.

You know, though, shutter speed (cameras) is a hell of a thing. I have a professional camera, and without exaggerating I can take probably seven shots in one second under optimum lighting.

I remember seeing a picture of stunning photography in one of my Dad’s Life magazines once that captured a gun firing, with the smoke, and the bullet still at the end of the frame. Kind of like this or this.

 
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Anyone notice how many responsible gun owners have been shooting folks lately?
Or allowing their kids to get a hold of a gun and take it to school, and threaten another kids life, or worse, shoot another kid?

Man, it’s a good thing we don’t restrict the “rights” of responsible gun owners. That would be tragic.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by softest_voice:

Anyone notice how many responsible gun owners have been shooting folks lately?
Or allowing their kids to get a hold of a gun and take it to school, and threaten another kids life, or worse, shoot another kid?

Man, it’s a good thing we don’t restrict the “rights” of responsible gun owners. That would be tragic.

Exaggerate much?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by jhco50:

First of all, when you fire a 12 gauge shotgun, which that is, there is recoil and the muzzle of the gun comes up. His isn’t. Your shoulder is forced back and his isn’t. But the big thing is the smoke coming out of the barrel.

You know, though, shutter speed (cameras) is a hell of a thing. I have a professional camera, and without exaggerating I can take probably seven shots in one second under optimum lighting.

I remember seeing a picture of stunning photography in one of my Dad’s Life magazines once that captured a gun firing, with the smoke, and the bullet still at the end of the frame. Kind of like this or this.

That’s not smoke but it is beautiful photography. I think that is so neat when they catch the bullet in flight like that.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by softest_voice:

Anyone notice how many responsible gun owners have been shooting folks lately?
Or allowing their kids to get a hold of a gun and take it to school, and threaten another kids life, or worse, shoot another kid?

Man, it’s a good thing we don’t restrict the “rights” of responsible gun owners. That would be tragic.

Exaggerate much?

What’s he exaggerating exactly? He didn’t say how many do that, just that it does happen.

 
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Tenco, think about this

1 The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.

2 Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.

3 Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.

Now think about this:

1 The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that’s 80 million)

2 The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

3 The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188

Statistics courtesy of the FBI.

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, “Guns don’t kill people, doctors do.”

FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but almost everyone has at least one doctor. This means you are over 9,000 times more likely to be killed by a doctor as by a gun owner.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand! Out of concern for the public at large, I am withholding the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention!

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Jhco, there’s a little flaw in your (Well, technically the FBI’s) post, it only include accidental deaths.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:

Jhco, there’s a little flaw in your (Well, technically the FBI’s) post, it only include accidental deaths.

The real flaw is the number of people saved. Guns save far fewer people then physicians do.

 
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Web pol results:What Sould you do about this issue?

They sould be only used by police or milatary-37%
They sould still be used only for emergency-30%
They sould never be used again-63%

 
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jakob, sould should be should, pol should be poll (could’ve just been a typo)

Anyway, I haven’t been following this thread but here’s my two cents.

I’m presuming your talking about the USA (the first post doesn’t help much).

Here’s what I think though…

Compared to us Australians, Americans are gun obsessed, (I don’t know too many native Americans, however one of them has 12 guns at his house and he lives in NYC… another says he can just order a gun online [auction] and they’ll mail it to him). In my eyes, thats insane. I know that you’d get background checks but even so… The fact that you can get one that easily unsettles me a bit.

Imo, guns should be reserved primarily for police and other defence/security orientated people (theres always exceptions) but this of course would enrage most of America due to the 2nd amendment.

All in all I don’t want people to die from some nutcase who was allowed to bring a gun into a school (or other well populated area) and be able to shoot up 20 or more people, sure the current system isn’t perfect but which are? Especially with as many people with guns in the US as there is.

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
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Originally posted by basicbasic:

jakob, sould should be should, pol should be poll (could’ve just been a typo)

Anyway, I haven’t been following this thread but here’s my two cents.

I’m presuming your talking about the USA (the first post doesn’t help much).

Here’s what I think though…

Compared to us Australians, Americans are gun obsessed, (I don’t know too many native Americans, however one of them has 12 guns at his house and he lives in NYC… another says he can just order a gun online [auction] and they’ll mail it to him). In my eyes, thats insane. I know that you’d get background checks but even so… The fact that you can get one that easily unsettles me a bit.

Imo, guns should be reserved primarily for police and other defence/security orientated people (theres always exceptions) but this of course would enrage most of America due to the 2nd amendment.

All in all I don’t want people to die from some nutcase who was allowed to bring a gun into a school (or other well populated area) and be able to shoot up 20 or more people, sure the current system isn’t perfect but which are? Especially with as many people with guns in the US as there is.

The only thing I can say basic is don’t come to America. Stay in your country where your leaders tell you what you can do and how you should live your life, because that is what you have allowed to happen in your country. You have as many gun people in your country as we do, but you have beat them down, stole their property, and act like they are rabid skunks for having a different ideal than your liberal leaders. Yes, I have been on gun forums from your country and they are not happy with those who are afraid and need a nanny state to protect them. But in reality, they aren’t protecting you. Yes you can tell me how the police are there and all you have to do is call them and they will help you out of a bad situation….when they finally get there. In the meantime you are a potential stiff in the morgue. I don’t know why you who are so against firearms can’t understand that the police will not be there when you need them. When your victimization is seconds away, they are only minutes away, if they even respond.

The fact that Americans are a freedom loving people (not all, some are weak pacifists), and fiercely independent, bothers those who have spent their lives believing they never have anything to fear from the criminal element…and don’t tell me you don’t have your share of crime. That is fine if that is how you like your country. I don’t care. But don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. I won’t accept your pacifism. I find it disturbing that we have so many sheep in this country anymore. Sheep manipulated by a power hungry government bent on controlling out people and being promoted by the sheep who don’t have the jewels to take responsibility for their own well being. Kind of like your people have become. You can either stand on you hind legs a be a man, or you can cower in a corner and hope your nanny government will protect you.

This is what we can expect in America:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/02/04/chicago-police-changing-response-plan-for-some-911-calls/

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by basicbasic:

jakob, sould should be should, pol should be poll (could’ve just been a typo)

Anyway, I haven’t been following this thread but here’s my two cents.

I’m presuming your talking about the USA (the first post doesn’t help much).

Here’s what I think though…

Compared to us Australians, Americans are gun obsessed, (I don’t know too many native Americans, however one of them has 12 guns at his house and he lives in NYC… another says he can just order a gun online [auction] and they’ll mail it to him). In my eyes, thats insane. I know that you’d get background checks but even so… The fact that you can get one that easily unsettles me a bit.

Imo, guns should be reserved primarily for police and other defence/security orientated people (theres always exceptions) but this of course would enrage most of America due to the 2nd amendment.

All in all I don’t want people to die from some nutcase who was allowed to bring a gun into a school (or other well populated area) and be able to shoot up 20 or more people, sure the current system isn’t perfect but which are? Especially with as many people with guns in the US as there is.

The only thing I can say basic is don’t come to America. Stay in your country where your leaders tell you what you can do and how you should live your life, because that is what you have allowed to happen in your country. You have as many gun people in your country as we do, but you have beat them down, stole their property, and act like they are rabid skunks for having a different ideal than your liberal leaders. Yes, I have been on gun forums from your country and they are not happy with those who are afraid and need a nanny state to protect them. But in reality, they aren’t protecting you. Yes you can tell me how the police are there and all you have to do is call them and they will help you out of a bad situation….when they finally get there. In the meantime you are a potential stiff in the morgue. I don’t know why you who are so against firearms can’t understand that the police will not be there when you need them. When your victimization is seconds away, they are only minutes away, if they even respond.

The fact that Americans are a freedom loving people (not all, some are weak pacifists), and fiercely independent, bothers those who have spent their lives believing they never have anything to fear from the criminal element…and don’t tell me you don’t have your share of crime. That is fine if that is how you like your country. I don’t care. But don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. I won’t accept your pacifism. I find it disturbing that we have so many sheep in this country anymore. Sheep manipulated by a power hungry government bent on controlling out people and being promoted by the sheep who don’t have the jewels to take responsibility for their own well being. Kind of like your people have become. You can either stand on you hind legs a be a man, or you can cower in a corner and hope your nanny government will protect you.

This is what we can expect in America:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/02/04/chicago-police-changing-response-plan-for-some-911-calls/

I guess none of these people know how to respond to this.

Kudos. :)

 
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Here’s something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd2XHegWYlg

 
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Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

I guess none of these people know how to respond to this.

Kudos. :)

Or because, y’know, jhco.

Or “they” haven’t gotten around to do it. (Seriously, you’re really impatient.)

Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

Here’s something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd2XHegWYlg

What is with people lately and not saying what they’re linking to?

 
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Answer these questions. Why does homeland defense and fema need military equipment and millions of rounds of ammunition? Are they planning to attack the American people?

http://rumcrook.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/amm-being-distributed-around-nation-by-shipping-container-load-for-homeland-security/

And why is the Commander in Chief afraid of his own military?

http://www.examiner.com/article/disabled-marine-rifles-at-inauguration-signal-shift-administration-policy

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Answer these questions. Why does homeland defense and fema need military equipment and millions of rounds of ammunition? Are they planning to attack the American people?

Nah, they’re just trying to find common ground.

 
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Originally posted by HappyAlCROWholic:

I think we should ban knives.

Here are some facts about how deadly knives are:
1. every year, millions of people get hurt by knives.
2. sometimes people go on stabbing sprees.
3. There is NO reason to own a knife other than to HARM OTHER PEOPLE!!!

Discuss these flawless reasons of why guns should be banned. Oops, I meant “knives”, not “guns” :>

 
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wow look at the spike during the “assault” weapons ban