Gun Issues page 48

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Well, I do have a bone to pick, as self proclaimed impartial moderator. So, Jhco, to quote you

This subject, along with the others you mention, have nothing to do with knowing what is best for complete strangers. It has to do with stability of the society as a whole. If the majority of the society (or sub-society in this case) don’t want an abortion center in their neighborhood the majority will rule.

That is a slippery slope. Which, I admit, is not much of an argument in it’s own right, and something of an over used one. But, I hear something ‘needs to be done for the stability of society’ and I get mighty skeptical. Have you read Goebbels on propaganda? They’re still using the same basic concepts. One must always present yourself as the wise, beneavolent good guy, your enemies are the freedom hating, uncivilized, alien bad guys who hate you irrationally because they are, well, irrational and therefor must be feared and reviled, and met with force rather then reason. Anywho, away from a tangent.

You make a moral appeal to majority Jhco. Which, is one of the things I’m quite tuned to at the moment. Yet, you also are something of a staunch Republic-Constitution’alist. You cannot have it both ways.

Is populism the basis of moral sanction? Are they correct because they are many in consensus? Or not? You seem to laud their activity. Should it not be condemned as immoral? If majority is the only sanction, then why the attachment to the constitution as immutable? Especially if the alteration should prove popular?

Either there are ideals, of whatever abstraction, that trump majority-mob-knows-best justifications, or there are not. I feel you are excusing responsibility for your views by transferring the responsibility onto the majority. If they are correct, why?

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As for the deletion issue, I remain as always in favor of keeping controversial, mean, posts. Anything that isn’t strictly mono syllabic, totally unrelated, or just visual garbage might as well be kept aboard. But, I imagine I and the Mods have different responsibilities to the board, hehe. I’m sure if acute censorship is something you’re worried about, try reposting it super polite and sincerely first. I imagine it will get a pass.

 
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Hmmmm….since, at the moment, this thread has gone the way of “politics—per-usual” and, so what? This thread is one of those “on-going” ones that very likely is prone to “wander” at times because of “lulls” in the world-of-guns.

However, I DID tie my post to the OP of the thread.
In fact, I tied it to the very point that most of us—on the PRO-gun-control faction—have come to a consensus on. That being the best course to take (although a few high tech ones were touched on) is to do as much as is humanly possible to keep guns out of the hands of those deemed “unable//incapable” of being responsible enough to posses such power.

I responded to a rant lengthy post by jhco that contained his typical hyperbole, ad hominem, & hypocrisy. I PLAYFULLY PLAYED on the word RANT because such is what HE has constantly called MY posts.

I made an assessment from his post that his ideology sounded much like that of a delusional person….something that other posters have also done—in one fashion or another. However, contrary to SOME ppl’s opinion, discussion of ones ideology presented ON this forum is well within the rules. As for “insulting” him on a “personal level” goes….THAT is merely a case of: If the shoes fits…wear it.

Where I tied my post to the OP of the thread is how I took that “shoe” and said that ppl (IN GENERAL) who espouse such rabidly paranoid viewpoints about their fellow Americans are probably the very ppl we “anti-gunners” (< a complete misnomer) are talking about when we state concerns about “misquided” ppl having a gun.

Originally posted by issendorf:
KKK: Well, I didn’t get around to picking apart his rant.
KKK: NOW, to tie MY rant to the OP issue.

Responding to a rant with&#8230; a rant. Brilliant.

Well, jhco….since this is a thread about guns,, and since ya DID NOT mention guns in either of yer last two RANTS nor show any of a tie in for them

Perhaps I didn’t make a tie-in w/ the first one because there really wasn’t a “hook to hang it on”. I responded to all of the ranting he did about me personally and the other “mushy minds” on this forum.
I guess issendorf, like jhco, is unable to understand the difference between calling the person a mushy mind and saying that the opinion they are presenting here is “mushy-minded”?

I did tie my second post (explained above) to the OP of the thread.
I guess issendorf “missed” that.
Let me point out what I said (at the bottom of the post): NOW, to tie MY rant to the OP issue.

Lets see, you:


1) Call Jhco delusional


2) Call Jhco a sheep


3) Imply Jhco is uneducated


4) Call Jhco egocentric


5) Talk about immigration for reasons God only knows


6) Call Jhco an extremest


NO…I guess issendorf is unable (OR…chooses not to) grasp the nuance of: If the shoe fits.

As far as mentioning of immigration goes, I guess issendorf failed to read beyond seeing the word. I pointed out how those mushy-minded “hippies” are the ones who care enough about human life that they set up watering stations so that those leaving Mexico might actually find some truth in the words at the feet of the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

BUT, there is a deeper message in my touching on immigration that DOES TIE IN to guns. I had hoped that rather than be childishly beset for mentioning it, we could have expanded our discussion to lead to this about how some rather zealous individuals are using their GUNS to, PERHAPS, be somewhat of a vanguard of this “revolution” jhco is constantly ranting talking about.

So, not only is your rambling post full of ad hominems (remember, you wrote an OP decrying ad hominems), it&#8217;s completely off topic, something you are equally annoyed with while at the same time go off on several tangents on a given post.

Aha….issendorf, once again, displays HIS penchant for “missing-the-obvious”.
KKK: NOW, to tie MY rant to the OP issue.
As I’ve said before, it scares the shit out of me to know that there are delusional &amp; egocentric ppl “out there” who have guns.
Does this make me (and the others on this forum who want these ppl to NOT HAVE guns) an “anti-gunner nut”?
Maybe.
BUT, by comparison to those nuts….not so much.

Saying &#8220;I want gun control and I&#8217;m not crazy!&#8221; at the end of your incoherent, off-topic mess doesn&#8217;t automatically unite the two. They are in no way connected.

Once again, issendorf appears to fail to “understand”…..for whatever reason.

We have a serious “problem” in America involving guns….esp. when compared to other nations.
This has been pointed out quite well by several posters.
Also pointed out is: the problem DOES NOT arise from the vast numbers of gun owners.
It rests squarely upon the shoulders of our inability to keep guns out of the hands of ppl who choose to use them illegally (hold-ups, etc.) and for violence.

Coming up w/ truly WORKABLE plans is going to take one helluva effort….by serious ppl….who are able to FOCUS on relevant facts….and can leave “emotions” out of the equation.

For jhco & issnedorf to derail (via very petty vendettas?) a discussion on this issue is so counter-productive that one might well wonder just what their point actually is?

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

In fact, I tied it to the very point that most of us&#8212;on the PRO-gun-control faction&#8212;have come to a consensus on. That being the best course to take (although a few high tech ones were touched on) is to do as much as is humanly possible to keep guns out of the hands of those deemed &#8220;unable//incapable&#8221; of being responsible enough to posses such power.

Ultimately we will need to use both: Social/legislative controls and technological controls. The former to minimise the weapons being in irresponsible hands, and the latter to catch an irresponsible user if they slip through the net of the former, before they can use it to take lives. The latter measure also serves to keep gun free zones gun free. Such zones are a lot safer if you KNOW there is no way in hell a gun is getting in.

 
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PRECISELY!

This kind of two-pronged proposal is exactly what it is going to take to (pardon the pun) HIT THE TARGET.
vika well explains the target as well as the basic methods for accomplishing this.

To “re-coin” a phrase the gun-ppl like to use: If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.

If we make a net that catches ONLY the targeted irresponsible & totally undesirable ownership of guns, then ONLY that kind of person will be “hit/caught” by this net.

But, they hysteria of SOME OF the pro-gun groups & their unwillingness to participate in the process of coming up w/ R&D and tangible experimentation on this “net factor” certainly isn’t at all helping to solve the rampant gun violence/misuse in America.

 
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Let me point out what I said (at the bottom of the post): NOW, to tie MY rant to the OP issue.

Simply saying two completely different things are connected doesn’t by default connect them.

NO…I guess issendorf is unable (OR…chooses not to) grasp the nuance of: If the shoe fits.

I do – what I fail to grasp is why you’re obsessed with calling Jhco names rather than addressing his argument. I know you two frequently have this lovers spat back and forth, but its really obnoxious for anyone not named Karma or Jhco and it would be fantastic if the two of you could produce one post without calling the other 8 different insults.

Aha….issendorf, once again, displays HIS penchant for “missing-the-obvious”.

Perhaps if you could write a coherent sentence, I wouldn’t miss the obvious.

Coming up w/ truly WORKABLE plans is going to take one helluva effort….by serious ppl….who are able to FOCUS on relevant facts….and can leave “emotions” out of the equation.

I’m glad you’re calling out the Democratic Party for politicizing Newtown. I completely agree.


On a related gun note, I saw this the other day. I must say, for someone as conservative on gun regulations as I am, this is fairly terrifying.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
KKK: Let me point out what I said (at the bottom of the post): NOW, to tie MY rant to the OP issue.

Simply saying two completely different things are connected doesn&#8217;t by default connect them.

IN YOUR OPINION
Good on YOU….ya have an opinion on what I said.
However, since I’m the one saying it….is it “okay” w/ YOU if I maintain that MY point is still valid?
OR, shall I constantly do the same to YOU?
If YOU want to challenge the connectivity of MY two points….fucking do so.
But, this childish crap of your simply SAYING THAT YOU DISAGREE is really, REALLY lame.
KKK; NO…I guess issendorf is unable (OR…chooses not to) grasp the nuance of: If the shoe fits.

I do &#8211; what I fail to grasp is why you&#8217;re obsessed with calling Jhco names rather than addressing his argument.

N O
YOU don’t understand much at all on my “calling him names”.
Doing so would be ad hominem and my posts would be deleted and I would (likely) be “punished” for doing so.
What YOU are obviously failing (for whatever reason) to grasp is that I am ONLY adressing his ideology AS HE PRESENTS IT HERE on this forum. That is what this forum is all about: sericous discussion of serious ideas (as in ideologies).

This is from the Kong SD “rules”: “This is a safe place for people, but not for ideas. Expect what you say to be challenged, but do not go after the individual people.” If jhco (or anyone) doesn’t want to have their ideas impugned…perhaps this isn’t the place for them.

Sure, it is truly not possible to separate the person from their ideology.
However, when jhco (or others) take positions that are bigoted…I’ll say he IS BEING BIGOTED. Does that imply that he IS a bigot? Maybe….but ONLY if that “shoe fits”,,,,and ONLY that particular shoe. I am NOT talking about his whole “closet” when I address what he posts. If YOU are not able to see this…..then, WHATEVER.

YOU are no “shiney kettle” yourself when it comes to casting aspersions when someone disagrees w/ YOU. So, why don’t YOU drop the “hypocrisy”. Ooopppps, I “called” ya a hypocrite.

How hard can it be for YOU to understand that a small part IS NOT THE WHOLE?

I know you two frequently have this lovers spat back and forth, but its really obnoxious for anyone not named Karma or Jhco and it would be fantastic if the two of you could produce one post without calling the other 8 different insults.

Hey,,,
here is a grand idea…
anyone who is soooo “offended” really doesn’t have to be so,,,
they simply don’t have to read any of it…eh?
No one is holding a gun to their heads….that I know of.
YOU are now fast begining to utilize the “jhco tactics” of discussion….LOL

KKK: Aha….issendorf, once again, displays HIS penchant for “missing-the-obvious”.

Perhaps if you could write a coherent sentence, I wouldn&#8217;t miss the obvious.

Again….
HINT: don’t read it if ya don’t like the “package it comes in”.
How hard can that be?
KKK: Coming up w/ truly WORKABLE plans is going to take one helluva effort….by serious ppl….who are able to FOCUS on relevant facts….and can leave “emotions” out of the equation.

I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re calling out the Democratic Party for politicizing Newtown. I completely agree.

Stop putting words in my mouth.
That is childishly twisting the truth.
If YOU want to show that my state applies to Democrates (in any form)…
then fucking do so.
What is it w/ YOU and this trollish crap?

On a related gun note, I saw this the other day. I must say, for someone as conservative on gun regulations as I am, this is fairly terrifying.

Would ya care to tell us WHY?
OR, is bitching at/about me your forte?

 
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Would ya care to tell us WHY?

Are you seriously saying you don’t see how the possibility of easily printing guns in your house is scary to him? Or did you not read the article? Because if you did read it, it should be pretty obvious why that scares him.

 
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Originally posted by Pokarnor:

Would ya care to tell us WHY?

Are you seriously saying you don&#8217;t see how the possibility of easily printing guns in your house is scary to him? Or did you not read the article? Because if you did read it, it should be pretty obvious why that scares him.

Well, I guess I should “thank you” for yer input.
After all, it is an open forum.
However, I addressed MY question to HIM.
Ergo, I SPECIFICALLY wanted to hear from him.
And, I had no idea that YOU were now speaking for him,,
and able to assess his emotions on issues.

AND, if YOU have been paying attention on this issue,,,,
YOU would have seen jhco & I talk about how it really isn’t all that hard to “make” a gun.
One really doesn’t need a (very?) expensive 3-D printer to do so.
Printers don’t kill….ppl do.

AND, just in case ya haven’t also noticed.
Such is pretty much, at this point, where the focus is on how best to deal w/ “gun violence” in America.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

On a related gun note, I saw this the other day. I must say, for someone as conservative on gun regulations as I am, this is fairly terrifying.

Yeah, that has been on the cards for a while. It’s why I’m increasingly focussed on tracking guns rather than trying to ban them – it will become over time, increasingly easy for anyone to 3D print whatever firearm and ammo they like from home, with less and less actual skill or knowledge required on their part.

So, we may have to give up on the firearm lisencing thing, and instead focus on gun-free zones, where nobody may carry, enforced by means of detecting firearms trying to enter.

After all, in theory at least, you could home-print RPGs and a launcher, fully automatic weapons, or even a 30mm cannon, with the only real expense being the basic materials and electricity used. At the most extreme end, download a set of plans someone else made from the internet, and let your printer churn it out with no expertise needed by you.

It would then be up to us to secure our schools and college campuses from the full range of firearms, both normal and ecletic, by detecting the propellants by chemical signature, or the mass of metal via machine vision and general outline. A diseased mind having access to essentially military-grade hardware is most definitely on the cards, providing they have the blueprints.

But then its not much different to being able to make anthrax in a home lab. The technology already exists, it just takes someone with a will. Of course, combine the two, and you would have something really nasty, that no old-school firearms lisence would ever sanction. It is just part and parcel of new technologies opening up possibilities for the average person that have never before existed.

 
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This is from the Kong SD “rules”: “This is a safe place for people, but not for ideas. Expect what you say to be challenged, but do not go after the individual people.” If jhco (or anyone) doesn’t want to have their ideas impugned…perhaps this isn’t the place for them.

Sure, it is truly not possible to separate the person from their ideology.
However, when jhco (or others) take positions that are bigoted…I’ll say he IS BEING BIGOTED. Does that imply that he IS a bigot? Maybe….but ONLY if that “shoe fits”,,,,and ONLY that particular shoe. I am NOT talking about his whole “closet” when I address what he posts. If YOU are not able to see this…..then, WHATEVER.

I’m just telling you how your posts come off to me and you come off as completely thin skinned. You can make of my feedback however you will, and I guess you are choosing to attack the messenger head on without even considering there may be merit to what I’m saying. Rather than actually addressing my points, you vaguely mention that I don’t understand followed by a cliche saying.

YOU are no “shiney kettle” yourself when it comes to casting aspersions when someone disagrees w/ YOU. So, why don’t YOU drop the “hypocrisy”. Ooopppps, I “called” ya a hypocrite.

Here’s the difference: I don’t flag posts when people mock me as you do. I don’t claim to be this noble person who rises above the fray as you do (I’m a proud asshole). And finally, I didn’t make an OP (and no, I’ll never that tasty inconvenient truth rest) decrying the civility of the forums. You can call me whatever the hell you want and I’ll never flag your post. I can mention in passing in agreement with another poster (albeit, a trollish alt) that you have rambling posts and you flag it.

Hey,,,
here is a grand idea…
anyone who is soooo “offended” really doesn’t have to be so,,,
they simply don’t have to read any of it…eh?
No one is holding a gun to their heads….that I know of.
YOU are now fast begining to utilize the “jhco tactics” of discussion….LOL

As you like to tell people, if they’re going to have a back and forth on the forums, they should take it to shouts and whispers. Perhaps you and Jhco should do the same and leave the forums uncluttered. I’m done discussing your post tatics on this thread. If you want to respond to my criticism of your post style, fine, although I would prefer you took it to shouts with me so as the other readers of SD don’t have to be bothered by it anymore.

If YOU want to show that my state applies to Democrates (in any form)…
then fucking do so.

You want emotions to be taken out of the gun control debate. I agree. The Democratic Party has consistently used Newtown over the past couple of months to try to further gun control. Using grieving parents as political footballs is tasteless, just as the Republicans using four dead Americans in Libya is equally tasteless. Politicians on both sides are guilty.

Would ya care to tell us WHY?
OR, is bitching at/about me your forte?

Well, yes, bitching is my forte. And it seemed rather obvious why one should be concerned with my link, but I can expand. While we disagree on the amount of gun regulations that should be implemented, we both agree there should be some regulations. By having firearms, especially assault weapons, becoming far easier to make at home via a 3D printer, guns become almost unregulateable. And that frightens me.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

On a related gun note, I saw this the other day. I must say, for someone as conservative on gun regulations as I am, this is fairly terrifying.

Hmm. There are some strange times ahead.

That is a bit worrysome. What would stop an underground organization (like Bloods/Crips) and other associated criminals from acquiring one of these and printing guns at will?

I’m familiar with those printers. They have them in the engineering department of my husband’s school and I’ve seen quite a few interesting figurines they’ve printed out.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by issendorf:

On a related gun note, I saw this the other day. I must say, for someone as conservative on gun regulations as I am, this is fairly terrifying.

Yeah, that has been on the cards for a while. It&#8217;s why I&#8217;m increasingly focussed on tracking guns rather than trying to ban them &#8211; it will become over time, increasingly easy for anyone to 3D print whatever firearm and ammo they like from home, with less and less actual skill or knowledge required on their part.

After all, in theory at least, you could home-print RPGs and a launcher, fully automatic weapons, or even a 30mm cannon, with the only real expense being the basic materials and electricity used. At the most extreme end, download a set of plans someone else made from the internet, and let your printer churn it out with no expertise needed by you.

Personally I still wonder how people are supposed to add propellants and primers to their printed ammunition. I have to admit that so far I’ve only seen 3D printer being used to make replicas of stuff built in minecraft so as far as my knowledge goes they aren’t equipped to actually put together all those small pieces they printed.

And on another note, wouldn’t it be better to simply ban 3D printers? After all once technology adavanced to the point where it is actually possible to print guns someone would probably find a way how to print a railgun too which wouldn’t be affected by sniffers searching for chemical propellants.

 
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And on another note, wouldn’t it be better to simply ban 3D printers? After all once technology adavanced to the point where it is actually possible to print guns someone would probably find a way how to print a railgun too which wouldn’t be affected by sniffers searching for chemical propellants.

You can make a railgun right now anyway, no printing required. It is pretty easy honestly.
They have successfully 3D printed parts of guns already, and they worked. Banning 3D printing is a dumb thing to do though. The only thing that could mitigate the 3D printing problem is to regulate ammunition, which you cannot print.

 
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Originally posted by JohnRulz:

And on another note, wouldn’t it be better to simply ban 3D printers? After all once technology adavanced to the point where it is actually possible to print guns someone would probably find a way how to print a railgun too which wouldn’t be affected by sniffers searching for chemical propellants.

You can make a railgun right now anyway, no printing required. It is pretty easy honestly.
They have successfully 3D printed parts of guns already, and they worked. Banning 3D printing is a dumb thing to do though. The only thing that could mitigate the 3D printing problem is to regulate ammunition, which you cannot print.

Technically you can also already build conventional firearms yourself. Although that’s more complex than having a machine print the parts for you. And though I only glanced over some instructions on how to build rail guns on the internet I guess you also need some sort of technical expertise to build one, or at least to avoid getting electrocuted. The required amount of said expertise would however be lessened extremely if anybody could just go out and buy a machine that prints the parts for you. (I still assume that they have to be put together manually.)

Concerning a 3D printing ban, as far as I found out the company that is working on printable guns so far only produced lower receivers made of plastic. Which according to one youtube demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLlJshR6nvg) broke after 6 shots. (Not sure how accurate that portrayal is since the video is pretty short. Though it makes sense that plastic is less stable than metal.) So since it’s apparently still some time until those printers can print metal such as steel there would still be enough time to put either bans or measures that make it difficult to do further research into 3d printing (such as buying patents, cutting funding to university projects focused on 3d printing) into place.

 
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Which according to one youtube demonstration broke after 6 shots

The people who made the lower receiver that broke in 6 shots later made an improved version which fired 1,000 rounds (though they only recorded it firing a few hundred rounds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=tAW72Y_XPF4

 
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Technically you can also already build conventional firearms yourself. Although that’s more complex than having a machine print the parts for you. And though I only glanced over some instructions on how to build rail guns on the internet I guess you also need some sort of technical expertise to build one, or at least to avoid getting electrocuted.

Railguns require a bit of expertise, but a coilgun is dead simple to make. It is a simplified version of a railgun that uses only one coil. Neither are particularly portable though.

Concerning a 3D printing ban, as far as I found out the company that is working on printable guns so far only produced lower receivers made of plastic. Which according to one youtube demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLlJshR6nvg) broke after 6 shots. (Not sure how accurate that portrayal is since the video is pretty short. Though it makes sense that plastic is less stable than metal.)

The article I linked is an updated version of that same project. They made it fire over 600 rounds before running out of ammo. They claim it could easily fire over 1000.

So since it’s apparently still some time until those printers can print metal such as steel there would still be enough time to put either bans or measures that make it difficult to do further research into 3d printing (such as buying patents, cutting funding to university projects focused on 3d printing) into place.

3D printing is far to useful to ban. The idea is absurd.
Banning reasearch into 3D printed guns would delay the inevitable at best, and banning their production would be like banning piracy. It simply wouldn’t work.

 
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Originally posted by JohnRulz:

Technically you can also already build conventional firearms yourself. Although that’s more complex than having a machine print the parts for you. And though I only glanced over some instructions on how to build rail guns on the internet I guess you also need some sort of technical expertise to build one, or at least to avoid getting electrocuted.

Railguns require a bit of expertise, but a coilgun is dead simple to make. It is a simplified version of a railgun that uses only one coil. Neither are particularly portable though.

Concerning a 3D printing ban, as far as I found out the company that is working on printable guns so far only produced lower receivers made of plastic. Which according to one youtube demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLlJshR6nvg) broke after 6 shots. (Not sure how accurate that portrayal is since the video is pretty short. Though it makes sense that plastic is less stable than metal.)

The article I linked is an updated version of that same project. They made it fire over 600 rounds before running out of ammo. They claim it could easily fire over 1000.

So since it’s apparently still some time until those printers can print metal such as steel there would still be enough time to put either bans or measures that make it difficult to do further research into 3d printing (such as buying patents, cutting funding to university projects focused on 3d printing) into place.

3D printing is far to useful to ban. The idea is absurd.
Banning reasearch into 3D printed guns would delay the inevitable at best, and banning their production would be like banning piracy. It simply wouldn&#8217;t work.

I took a look at some of those coilguns on the internet and apparently the handgun-shaped ones can give their projectiles an energy of 5 joule. Looking at a wikipedia muzzle energy chart, a .22 LR bullet (weakest caliber i knew) has about 160 joules. While the lethal amount is probably lower than that it is a good starting value. So for the more technically inclined people on here: Would it be possible to print a rail/coilgun that reaches that joule-threshold while still being about as big as a rilfe? (As far as I know it has something to do with barrel length and amount/strength of electricity applied as well as cooling of the barrel but I’m not really a tech-guy.)

On the improved lower receiver: Well, that doesn’t exactly make people feel more confident in their future safety, does it?

Further on the viability of 3D printing bans: As far as I see it piracy is difficult to ban because most people already have a PC in their home. Which is a consequence of the miniaturisation of computers. (Seeing as they were once big enough to fill whole rooms.) Since 3D printers so far are still quite expensive to make (as far as I read the Defense distributed guys had to lease one) a broad ban on the technology would leave little incentive to miniaturize the techonology for home use/make it cheaper to produce them due to a small market of organisations which could legally posess them. Which in turn, would make it more difficult to manufacture a 3D printer illegally (due to funds, personal with the needed know-how, difficulty of making profit due to high price and low number of customers willing to pay that price etc.) which, as far as I see it would severly limit the availability to the populace. It makes sense in my head, but if you find any fallacies in that train of thought feel free to point them out.

Edit: Addendum: I’d also expect that quite a few companies would start lobbying for some new kind of digital rights management / fabrication rights management once 3D printer would become widely available at low prices due to them seeing their markets being endangered. So a potential ban doesn’t need to be weapons-based.

 
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Would it be possible to print a rail/coilgun that reaches that joule-threshold while still being about as big as a rilfe? (As far as I know it has something to do with barrel length and amount/strength of electricity applied as well as cooling of the barrel but I’m not really a tech-guy.)

Certainly not for a coilgun. The rail gun is far more efficient, so you might be able to pull it off. Railguns function much better with long barrels though, and the need for magnetism usually means they are much heavier than an ordinary rifle. It would be more feasible as a sniper rifle. That’s why I pointed out that they were not very portable.

On the improved lower receiver: Well, that doesn’t exactly make people feel more confident in their future safety, does it?

I’m not trying to instill confidence, I’m trying tho point out that this will be a problem sooner rather than later.

It makes sense in my head, but if you find any fallacies in that train of thought feel free to point them out.

I am not worried about the viability of the ban, it’s just that 3D printers have far to many uses to ban them. It is the first step toward the replicators from star trek, which is the consumer product to end all consumer products—literally. The utility is limitless.

Edit: Addendum: I’d also expect that quite a few companies would start lobbying for some new kind of digital rights management / fabrication rights management once 3D printer would become widely available at low prices due to them seeing their markets being endangered. So a potential ban doesn’t need to be weapons-based.

Music has copyrights. That doesn’t stop people from downloading illicit copies. Likewise, people would still download gun plans if they were illegal, and it would be completely untraceable. Furthermore, people are already making open-source guns.

 
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Good, evenhanded writeup about the back-and-forth between gun control and gun rights over the course of US history, courtesy of The Atlantic

 
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So I am gone for a few days and you liberals take advantage of that to use me in every post. Cowards. Karma, You have been on the wrong side of every thread on this forum. I haven’t got a bit of respect for someone so against the American society.

Guns, those horrible devices of death and mayhem. Those inanimate objects that take on a live of their own and go hunting children. They hunt down innocent victims and then return to their safes at night,, before their owners, who are despicable people in their own right for fighting for their freedoms against the Marxist assault on the country. I don’t suppose you have seen how Sandy Hook has been forgotten in the assault on gun-owners? Of course not, as you leftists are salivating another assault on freedom, in you’re eyes, another nail in the coffin of freedom.

I often wonder what happened to common sense. It is not so common anymore. Look at Karma. What is it he wants for America? Sure he will deny it but in reality (from his own posts) he wants America to become anything but the country that made the world better with it’s people and their creativeness. He wants a country that is broke, a country that takes from the producers to spread to the drags on society. He wants the illegals to flow over the boarder, taking the jobs and the American dream from the real citizens. He is treasonous to the country that gave him the life and riches he enjoys.

Today, my state debated the gun control laws they want. None of them will affect the criminal, none of them. Yet because we have democratic representatives and a democratic governor, they feel free to move legislation against the wishes of the people who elected them. However, the pressure has risen in the cesspool we call a government. Our governor is crawfishing one signing these attacks on citizens rights. What these representatives are missing is our state has a constitution too, and it will come back to bite them.

Our federal government is truly a mess. We have an administration that despises the constitution because it gets in their way. Then they have temper tantrums when they don’t get everything they want. To hell with the constituents, they did their job by re-electing that boob of a president. Liberals call him a leader, but he is not. He worries about things that are not important and ignores the things that are important.

The sequester he has been raving against is such a baldfaced lie. Oh no, $82 billion dollars will be cut from a trillion dollar budget. OMG! The truth? Nothing will be cut except the increase in spending. Just like tax cuts, they are cutting the increase. You won’t hear this from the likes of Karma, it messes up their arguments for their savior in the white house.

Common sense. Yet it isn’t used by the liberals. They ignore the reality and chase their liberal dreams of a utopia of socialism, one step at a time. Right now it is firearms. Doesn’t it make you wonder why Sandy Hook was forgotten? It’s simple, they never gave a damn about those children. It was just an excuse to go after our firearms, something they have been trying to take away for decades. It has even leaked out that Obama can’t complete his transformation of America as long as the citizenry are armed. Yet the liberals keep repeating the mantra for feel good laws, never realizing they are being duped by a treasonous president reaching for total power. Close your eyes until it is too late. Our founding fatheres would be proud to know the liberals sold our country down the creek with their greed and lust for power.

 
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So I am gone for a few days and you liberals take advantage of that to use me in every post. Cowards. Karma, You have been on the wrong side of every thread on this forum. I haven’t got a bit of respect for someone so against the American society.

So, opening with “you liberals” and “cowards”. Nice.
And for the guy that refuses to cite any sort of valid source for his opinions to call someone else out for being on “the wrong side”…Cute.
Disagreeing with your outdated, closed-minded opinions doesn’t mean someone is anti-American. They’re just anti-you.

Guns, those horrible devices of death and mayhem. Those inanimate objects that take on a live of their own and go hunting children. They hunt down innocent victims and then return to their safes at night,, before their owners, who are despicable people in their own right for fighting for their freedoms against the Marxist assault on the country. I don’t suppose you have seen how Sandy Hook has been forgotten in the assault on gun-owners? Of course not, as you leftists are salivating another assault on freedom, in you’re eyes, another nail in the coffin of freedom.

This paragraph is so riddled with hyperbole, I almost don’t know where to start.
I might start, though, by pointing out that no one I’ve seen in this forum considers guns as self-aware death machines. No one here thinks that there’s not an issue with the people wielding them.
I might point out that the root causes of gun violence have been discussed by those on both sides of the issue.
But it wouldn’t matter, because freedom. That’s your short-sighted, trite answer for everything, isn’t it? Freedom.
Read a book.

I often wonder what happened to common sense. It is not so common anymore. Look at Karma. What is it he wants for America? Sure he will deny it but in reality (from his own posts) he wants America to become anything but the country that made the world better with it’s people and their creativeness. He wants a country that is broke, a country that takes from the producers to spread to the drags on society. He wants the illegals to flow over the boarder, taking the jobs and the American dream from the real citizens. He is treasonous to the country that gave him the life and riches he enjoys.

You’re making some pretty bold statements here. I’ll just reiterate that someone with an opinion that differs from yours isn’t “the enemy” or “a traitor”; they’re someone with a different opinion.
It’s called representative democracy. You should look into it.
Oh, and I like that you’re about one step from that old Chestnut, “America: Love it or Leave it!”
Keep up the critical thought.

Today, my state debated the gun control laws they want. None of them will affect the criminal, none of them. Yet because we have democratic representatives and a democratic governor, they feel free to move legislation against the wishes of the people who elected them. However, the pressure has risen in the cesspool we call a government. Our governor is crawfishing one signing these attacks on citizens rights. What these representatives are missing is our state has a constitution too, and it will come back to bite them.

Look, kids! An abject misunderstanding and/or denial of democracy! You elected these representatives, you don’t like what they’re doing…then don’t re-elect them.
It’s pretty straightforward.
Oh, and we wrapped this paragraph up with another thinly-veiled impotent threat! Nice!

Our federal government is truly a mess. We have an administration that despises the constitution because it gets in their way. Then they have temper tantrums when they don’t get everything they want. To hell with the constituents, they did their job by re-electing that boob of a president. Liberals call him a leader, but he is not. He worries about things that are not important and ignores the things that are important.

Hey, no argument that the Federal gov is a train wreck right now. Deadlocked Congress, a “liberal” President who has continued some of the WORST of the Bush administration’s policies. Not pretty. And not looking to get any prettier, either. We definitely need a house cleaning across the board up top.
That’s what elections are for.
But what on earth could you be worried the President is overly-concerned with? What unimportant issue is he so preoccupied with?

The sequester he has been raving against is such a baldfaced lie. Oh no, $82 billion dollars will be cut from a trillion dollar budget. OMG! The truth? Nothing will be cut except the increase in spending. Just like tax cuts, they are cutting the increase. You won’t hear this from the likes of Karma, it messes up their arguments for their savior in the white house.

Oh.
Yeah, the slowing of an already down economy, and potential loss of 3/4 of a million jobs. Meh, what a waste of time.

Common sense. Yet it isn’t used by the liberals. They ignore the reality and chase their liberal dreams of a utopia of socialism, one step at a time. Right now it is firearms. Doesn’t it make you wonder why Sandy Hook was forgotten? It’s simple, they never gave a damn about those children. It was just an excuse to go after our firearms, something they have been trying to take away for decades. It has even leaked out that Obama can’t complete his transformation of America as long as the citizenry are armed. Yet the liberals keep repeating the mantra for feel good laws, never realizing they are being duped by a treasonous president reaching for total power. Close your eyes until it is too late. Our founding fatheres would be proud to know the liberals sold our country down the creek with their greed and lust for power.

Of course; it’s all the fault of “the liberals”. The ephemeral pinko commies.

  • You don’t know what Socialism is.
  • If you’d read the article, you’d see that both parties have had a hand in writing gun control policy over the decades…including that model of contemporary Republican wet dreams, Ronald Reagan.
  • Our founding fathers actually enacted a lot of controls that your ilk would consider overreaching, if you weren’t so hypocritical and blind to history.
 
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A page or so back, I was able to draw out (or, “poke-the-bear”?) jhco and get him to, in one large rant, “spill the beans” on a lot of his very right-wing extremist politics.

I had hoped to address his zealot-manifesto line by line…
however, I once again allowed myself to be sucked into a “debate” w/ a childish troll.

I now have time, and in an effort to avenge twilight-ninja’s contrating cancer, I just have to address this frothing-at-the-mouth rant below.

Originally posted by jhco50:

So I am gone for a few days and you liberals take advantage of that to use me in every post. Cowards.

First: it was a lovely few days for us….lol

Second: Hyperbolize much? Ya do know that there is NO such thing as “you liberals”….just as there is no thing called “you conservatives”. This is why I put “conservatives” in quotes. It obviously denotes that the word really isn’t an accurate discription….yet, it is what would strongly be likely to be used in the context of what I’m saying.

Third: To be sooooo egocentrist as to think we can’t include him in our discussions is ludicrous. But, to call us cowards for doing so demonstrates, in MY opinion, what several of us on this forum have come to realize, jhco has very little to support his ideologies presented here….so he resorts to ad homenim. Something he so loudly rants on-&-on that is done to him.

Karma, You have been on the wrong side of every thread on this forum.

Hyperbolize much?
Haven’t YOU noticed that on this very thread, my postion is more aligned w/ YOURS?
It’s just a lot more….shall I say: RATIONAL?
At the very least, I a(unlike YOU) am able to see that the talking points of this thread have pretty much MOVED AWAY from discussing—NOT BANNING GUNS—mere REGULATIONS that wouldn’t affect rational gun ownership at all. We have now been talking about the future of various forms of gun issues will be.

I haven&#8217;t got a bit of respect for someone so against the American society.

Again, hyperbolize much?
No “respect” for my support of RATIONAL, REASONABLE gun rights….eh?
And, my being FOR the AMERICAN RIGHTS to marry a loved one,,,
and, my being FOR the right of a woman to have control of what her body & life will be subject to by an UNWANTED pregnancy,,,
and my being for the right of a person to LEGALLY use substances on a par that alcohol is used,,,
and my (superior to YOURS) understanding of our Constituton….
all of these things SOMEHOW make me against American society?
Yeah….right.

Read on….just read on and I’’ talk on what is “against American society”.

Guns, those horrible devices of death and mayhem. Those inanimate objects that take on a live of their own and go hunting children. They hunt down innocent victims and then return to their safes at night,, before their owners, who are despicable people in their own right for fighting for their freedoms against the Marxist assault on the country.

Oh, fucking shit…do YOU not understand just how insane this kind of talk is?
How this shit is what is truly out of touch w/ where American society actually is on the gun issue? At least this childish shit about guns having a life of their own is NOT something they HAVE EVER espoused. It is only something that was conjured up in the wacked-out minds of ppl who had little else to contribute to the discussion.

I don&#8217;t suppose you have seen how Sandy Hook has been forgotten in the assault on gun-owners?

Good grief, just as guns don’t have a life of their own…it’s not the RESULT that should be seen as the real problem. It is "water-under-the-bridge. What needs to be focused on is how to PREVENT ALL OF the results of inappropriate gun use.

Of course not, as you leftists are salivating another assault on freedom, in you&#8217;re eyes, another nail in the coffin of freedom.

Good gawd, do YOU actually read what YOU write?
Do YOU not understand just how “far out there” such attitudes are?
How such broad-sweeping statements are blatantly incorrect?

I often wonder what happened to common sense.

No shit, Sherlock.

It is not so common anymore.

Well, was it truly ever?
Esp. since something like that is soooooo very SUBJECTIVE.

Look at Karma. What is it he wants for America? Sure he will deny it but in reality (from his own posts) he wants America to become anything but the country that made the world better with it&#8217;s people and their creativeness.

Wow, this I didn’t know.
I didn’t get the memo.
Thanks for the briefing.
I’ll remember that the next time I’m showing support for gun rights, for abortion rights, for marriage rights, for education rights, for ALL OF the rights our Constitution defends.

He wants a country that is broke, a country that takes from the producers to spread to the drags on society. He wants the illegals to flow over the boarder, taking the jobs and the American dream from the real citizens. He is treasonous to the country that gave him the life and riches he enjoys.

And YOU wonder why so many of YOUR posts are delted?

Today, my state debated the gun control laws they want. None of them will affect the criminal, none of them. Yet because we have democratic representatives and a democratic governor, they feel free to move legislation against the wishes of the people who elected them.

First: ya probably shout capitalize Democratic.
Second: Are YOU trying to tell me that YOUR state govt. is going agains the wishes OF ALL OF THE PPL?
Again: hyperbolize much in order to support YOU (usually?) weak point?

However, the pressure has risen in the cesspool we call a government.

Is this how one gears themself up as a prelude to some shit-talk, reactionary “REVOLUTION” that YOU constantly refer to?

Our governor is crawfishing one signing these attacks on citizens rights.

Whatever THAT means?

What these representatives are missing is our state has a constitution too, and it will come back to bite them.

Yeah…THAT is exactly what happens when ya “poke-T-bear”….ya know, the 3rd cousin to Smokey T. Bear?

Our federal government is truly a mess.

I can’t//won’t argue THAT much.
However, the rub comes in when we begin to assess RESPONSIBILITY for the mess.

We have an administration that despises the constitution because it gets in their way. Then they have temper tantrums when they don&#8217;t get everything they want.

Errrrrr….this sounds more like what the GOP has been doing lately.

To hell with the constituents, they did their job by re-electing that boob of a president. Liberals call him a leader, but he is not. He worries about things that are not important and ignores the things that are important.

Well, thanks for YOUR input on this.
As usual, it will be earnestly considered, judged on its merit, and given appropriate assessment.

The sequester he has been raving against is such a baldfaced lie. Oh no, $82 billion dollars will be cut from a trillion dollar budget. OMG! The truth? Nothing will be cut except the increase in spending. Just like tax cuts, they are cutting the increase. You won&#8217;t hear this from the likes of Karma, it messes up their arguments for their savior in the white house.

Well, damn….I missed that memo,,,AGAIN.
It is a damn good thing I have jhco to do my thinking for me.
How else would I know what my stance on this sequester is?

Common sense. Yet it isn&#8217;t used by the liberals. They ignore the reality and chase their liberal dreams of a utopia of socialism, one step at a time. Right now it is firearms. Doesn&#8217;t it make you wonder why Sandy Hook was forgotten? It&#8217;s simple, they never gave a damn about those children. It was just an excuse to go after our firearms, something they have been trying to take away for decades.

“They” say that repeating oneself is the first sign of senility.

It has even leaked out that Obama can&#8217;t complete his transformation of America as long as the citizenry are armed. Yet the liberals keep repeating the mantra for feel good laws, never realizing they are being duped by a treasonous president reaching for total power.

LOL
Egocentrist time again.

Close your eyes until it is too late. Our founding fatheres would be proud to know the liberals sold our country down the creek with their greed and lust for power.

Actually, at that time…the FF’s were considered to be the “liberals” AND radicals.
Originally posted by softest_voice:
Disagreeing with your outdated, closed-minded opinions does not mean someone is anti-American. They are just anti-you.

Oh crap, THAT is downright funny.
Thanks, softest….it is really getting my day off to a nice start.