What if Jesus was just a philosopher? page 2

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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
Originally posted by MyTie:

Maybe it’s just the shitty way you worded your first post. Look at it:

So, philosopher or not, he was a liar. Except of course to those who believe in him being the son of god.

Like I said, believe in what he said, or what anyone says, doesn’t affect whether the original statement is a lie or not.

Its not that shitty. You either did not take a good look at the English used here or did not understand it.
If you take a good look, there are to factual statements. 1. Jesus was liar and 2. except of course to those who believe in him being the son of god.
In this case 1. is prolaimed always true in an absolute sense. As in Jesus naturally lied even to the believers, because he was not the son of god and so. 2. Is true in the relative sense that some people don´t believe that Jesus is/was a liar, to them Jesus is/was not liar(even if objectively according to 1 he is/was).

To those who believe it, they don’t believe it to be a lie. To those who don’t believe it, they believe it to be a lie. Whether it actually is a lie or not, is not dependent on beliefs, but is objectively determined.

Only problem is that it can’t be objectively determined because of the nature of the question.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

Its not that shitty. You either did not take a good look at the English used here or did not understand it.
If you take a good look, there are to factual statements. 1. Jesus was liar and 2. except of course to those who believe in him being the son of god.
In this case 1. is prolaimed always true in an absolute sense. As in Jesus naturally lied even to the believers, because he was not the son of god and so. 2. Is true in the relative sense that some people don´t believe that Jesus is/was a liar, to them Jesus is/was not liar(even if objectively according to 1 he is/was).

To those who believe it, they don’t believe it to be a lie. To those who don’t believe it, they believe it to be a lie. Whether it actually is a lie or not, is not dependent on beliefs, but is objectively determined.

Sigh. Yes, now your a step closer. As soon as you understand that in English its not necessary to spell everything out perfectly, as in:

To those who believe it, he is not a liar.

Can be them same as:

To those who believe it, they believe him to be not a liar.

Even though they are technically not the same. This becomes especially apparent since the context already establishes/claims in the first that he is objectively a liar. (Even reinforced in a later Post by Dante_Dreiman)

You might find this illogical all you want. To that i would reply: Its English what do you expect?

 
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Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:Only problem is that it can’t be objectively determined because of the nature of the question.

We agree on that much. The point isn’t which is right or wrong, but that one is right and one is wrong, and that a modern opinion on which is right and which is wrong doesn’t influence whether the statement then was accurate or not.

Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:This becomes especially apparent since the context already establishes/claims in the first that he is objectively a liar.
I don’t remember him doing this. In fact, he just said that that can’t be objectively determined, right above your post.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:This becomes especially apparent since the context already establishes/claims in the first that he is objectively a liar.

I don’t remember him doing this. In fact, he just said that that can’t be objectively determined, right above your post.


here:
Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:

and this bit here:

Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:

I don’t know if you have been paying attention but a great number of people do the opposite of what i am doing, they actually take his words as fact and proclaim he was the Son of God, no questions about it. So, i am not the only one doing something “illogical” here. And seeing at how you choose to capitalize “he” when talking about him i am inclined to believe you belong to that category.

Just because Dante agrees that something can not be objectively determined(true or not) does not mean that it can not be claimed to be objectively so and so(doing so just makes it an opinion).
You were initially not criticizing him by claiming that his first too second sentences are not objective(and thus an opinion) but that his third sentence makes no sense or is illogical, which it is not. All three Sentences are written with the base view that Jesus is in fact a liar.
And if you want to criticize the base view you should do that directly and i also suggest that you start all your post with “I believe/think/in my opinion…” or something similar because what usually follows are pure opinion pieces. Its common trait that most people don´t start their sentences so even if they full well now that they are just expressing their opinion.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:
Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:Only problem is that it can’t be objectively determined because of the nature of the question.

We agree on that much. The point isn’t which is right or wrong, but that one is right and one is wrong, and that a modern opinion on which is right and which is wrong doesn’t influence whether the statement then was accurate or not.

I am still unsure what this introduction to basic propositional logic is doing in a “What if” thread but anyway.

 
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Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:

I am still unsure what this introduction to basic propositional logic is doing in a “What if” thread but anyway.

Ever since MyTie first arrived on SD, he’s been arguing that there is a basic, objective ‘truth’ to everything. He’s a preacher, so it’s his job to convince others of this. As such the existence of this basic objective ‘truth’ has permeated every argument he’s ever made here. This objectivity is always there, even when we have absolutely no evidence for it, and even when we have evidence against it.

Note: MyTie, I have absolutely no interntion of arguing with you. I realise it would be a fruitless endeavor. I just wished to explain to those newer regulars to SD, dante included – who are arguing in this thread – the reason for it having taken the turn it has.

 
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I don’t have any desire to argue what the objective truth is. Everyone has their opinions as to what the truth is. I’m a preacher, but I’m not going to preach here, mostly because it would be negatively received. All I wanted to say was that the truth is independent of opinion.

 
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After Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, He appeared to His disciples several times and to Paul, who recorded that He was seen of over 500 men (plus women and children we assume) at once. The Book of Mormon serves as a second testament of Jesus Christ’s divinity. It claims that He also appeared after His resurrection to people who had been taught to believe in Him in the western hemisphere (long story ). There He was seen by over 2,500 who felt the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, who saw and heard, and witnessed that it was Jesus. In more modern times, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon also testified that the resurrected Christ appeared to them.

Someone commented that we can’t ask Jesus, since 3000+ eye-witnesses across multiple continents and thousands of years aren’t enough. Let me offer two experiments for your consideration.

One that Jesus proposed: “If any man will do his [God’s] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

Very similarly from the last chapter of the Book of Mormon:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

… 7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost….

I have tried these experiments: striving to do the things Jesus taught and after studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon prayed to ask God if they are true. I have found that living them makes my life happier and sweeter. I have found my own witness from the Holy Ghost that those books of scripture are true in their witness of Jesus’ divinity as the Son of God. My saying so won’t convince you, but I would invite you to try the same experiments and see if it doesn’t make your life better.

 
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Originally posted by DerrillWat:


Someone commented that we can’t ask Jesus, since 3000+ eye-witnesses across multiple continents and thousands of years aren’t enough. Let me offer two experiments for your consideration.

Eye witnesses who´s very existence is not verified in some of the cases you mention and who´s credibility can not be taken especially high. The supposed sighting(yes including mass-sightings) of religious figures of other religions(including non-Jewish religions) or even ghosts, aliens and mystical creatures (like Bigfoot), all put shame on such arguments.

My saying so won’t convince you, but I would invite you to try the same experiments and see if it doesn’t make your life better.

What do we get if it makes are life worse? The people i personally know that suffer because of religion are higher than those that are better off. While it is true that religion can be a motivational inspiration for many, it most commonly just replaces one vice with another.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:

I am still unsure what this introduction to basic propositional logic is doing in a “What if” thread but anyway.

Ever since MyTie first arrived on SD, he’s been arguing that there is a basic, objective ‘truth’ to everything. He’s a preacher, so it’s his job to convince others of this. As such the existence of this basic objective ‘truth’ has permeated every argument he’s ever made here. This objectivity is always there, even when we have absolutely no evidence for it, and even when we have evidence against it.

Note: MyTie, I have absolutely no interntion of arguing with you. I realise it would be a fruitless endeavor. I just wished to explain to those newer regulars to SD, dante included – who are arguing in this thread – the reason for it having taken the turn it has.

There is such a thing as an objective truth however one shouldn’t see only the forest but also the trees. Part of that objective truth is that sadly many groups of people like to create their own, personal types of truth. I am not certain that MyTie realises it but that exact point was what i was trying to stress in my first post. To the group known as “Christians” accepting that Jesus was a liar will never happen. In their world view Jesus is the Son of the one true God, regardless of any logical or provable fact.

Originally posted by DerrillWat:

After Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, He appeared to His disciples several times and to Paul, who recorded that He was seen of over 500 men (plus women and children we assume) at once. The Book of Mormon serves as a second testament of Jesus Christ’s divinity. It claims that He also appeared after His resurrection to people who had been taught to believe in Him in the western hemisphere (long story ). There He was seen by over 2,500 who felt the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, who saw and heard, and witnessed that it was Jesus. In more modern times, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon also testified that the resurrected Christ appeared to them.

Someone commented that we can’t ask Jesus, since 3000+ eye-witnesses across multiple continents and thousands of years aren’t enough. Let me offer two experiments for your consideration.

One that Jesus proposed: “If any man will do his [God’s] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

Very similarly from the last chapter of the Book of Mormon:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

… 7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost….


I have tried these experiments: striving to do the things Jesus taught and after studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon prayed to ask God if they are true. I have found that living them makes my life happier and sweeter. I have found my own witness from the Holy Ghost that those books of scripture are true in their witness of Jesus’ divinity as the Son of God. My saying so won’t convince you, but I would invite you to try the same experiments and see if it doesn’t make your life better.

I have been Christian for the first 17 years of my life and now at age 20 i look at it and don’t feel that anything changed ever since i said “it’s just fairy tales”. So, how about that for an experiment?

 
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Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:

There is such a thing as an objective truth however one shouldn’t see only the forest but also the trees. Part of that objective truth is that sadly many groups of people like to create their own, personal types of truth. I am not certain that MyTie realises it but that exact point was what i was trying to stress in my first post. To the group known as “Christians” accepting that Jesus was a liar will never happen. In their world view Jesus is the Son of the one true God, regardless of any logical or provable fact.

Perception is (most often?) reality.
Simply ask anyone to decribe “A” (as in singular) tree. You most likely will get various answers describing the particular, SPECIFIC tree that person most associates, sees, & percieves as being A tree. Yes, they “know” a forest has many trees of different kinds, but they have their own particular “favorite” that so greatly stands out that acknowledgement of the others can easily become obscured.

This is could be seen as a modification of the adage: Can’t see the forest for THE tree(s).
It becomes: Can’t (doesn’t care to) see the forest because of A (hugely preferred) tree….whether or not that tree even exists,,,other than in their mind.

“Reality”:
And “Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you.” Douglas Adams.

OR, Julian Beever I well imagine that quite a few ppl, upon seeing one of his “3-D” drawings on a sidewalk would swear it was “real”…a “reality”.
I, just the same, well imagine that those who have a “spiritual feeling//sensation of BELIEF” that Jesus//God//whatever will just the same swear that such is also “real”, and therefore a//the “truth”. I think Dante is citing his own personal experience as HIS explanation of this “phenomenom”.

I have been Christian for the first 17 years of my life and now at age 20 i look at it and don’t feel that anything changed ever since i said “it’s just fairy tales”. So, how about that for an experiment?

Perceptions change. Those 3-D drawings of Beever’s have to be viewed from a specific spot for them to seen as intended. When one hits that spot…the “magic” occurs. The same might be said of MyTie’s “truth”…that it has to be “seen” from a particular frame of mind,,,a particular perception of what is true,,,a PERSONAL perception of what is true. This personal perception can come from many differing sources…likely most often, having been raised “in the church”. Sometimes, I wonder if it is merely that the “adult” just doesn’t want to “grow up” and accept the harsh “true reality” that their life is just that—THEIRS and nothing more to it. There is no real divinity to “help” them. Sure, a BELIEF can be of help…can offer solace…can provide a “carrot” (key to Heaven) to follow. BUT, such is a reality ONLY FOR THEM.

A child BELIEVES in the perception that the white-bearded guy in the red suit ACTUALLY IS SANTA CLAUS….the guy who deems him/er to be “naughty or nice” and will bring toys (rewards) based on that assessment.

An adult (can?) believe that the white-bearded guy in the flowing white robe ACTUALLY IS GOD….the guy who deems him/er to be “saved or not” and will bestow entrance into the Pearly Gates based on that assessment.

How can we realistically assess whether or not Jesus was a “liar” just because HE “believed” there to be this “God” and that he was the “Son” of It? We aren’t even able to—IN REALITY—assess the “evidence” that he even made this claim….because it doesn’t exist. Well, is DOES “exist” IN THE MINDS of the “believers”. Those being the ones who whole-heartedly “believe” in the Word (the Bible). Their “WORD-of-GOD” is the only tree they really (reality wise) care to “see”….the rest of the “forest” belongs to the “unclean”…the “not saved”.

Just as a child “grows up” and learns the “truth” about Santa,,, so did Dante “grow” and reassess his “belief” in what is “true//real (reality)” concerning his religious beliefs. His feet took the path of “enlightenment”. Those adults who continue the “fairy tales” (as he describes them) to the point, often extreme or zealous, of building elaborate supporting “evidence//truths” have simply choosen a different path to follow….one that is based entirely upon FAITH…a faith that is held to be the actual TRUTH.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
I think Dante is citing his own personal experience as HIS explanation of this “phenomenom”.

Not really, it is a general realisation. People who accept something dogmatically won’t easily change their world view on the matter especially when what they believe makes them feel good about something. And the older they get the harder for them to accept their world view as being false. “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks”, right?

so did Dante “grow” and reassess his “belief” in what is “true//real (reality)” concerning his religious beliefs.

I wouldn’t call them “my” believes. They were never mine, even before i chose to ignore them.

 
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Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
I think Dante is citing his own personal experience as HIS explanation of this “phenomenom”.

Not really, it is a general realisation. People who accept something dogmatically won’t easily change their world view on the matter especially when what they believe makes them feel good about something. And the older they get the harder for them to accept their world view as being false. “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks”, right?

Yup.
Right.
That’s exactly what I said….just in different words.
so did Dante “grow” and reassess his “belief” in what is “true//real (reality)” concerning his religious beliefs.

I wouldn’t call them “my” beliefs. They were never mine, even before i chose to ignore them.

I assumed as much. Such is the reason I put belief in quotes to indicate that your “belief” likely wasn’t your own TRUE one, therefore it didn’t “feel” right and as such, promting an “urge” to reassess the path ya’d been on for those first 17 years….be them by your “chosing” or merely from “expectations” placed on ya by family and/or society.

As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined.
And, while this is so often the case as to induce this proverb, there are those “exceptions to the rules” that defy such “confromity”. This usually happens because these ppl have the courage to think for themselves and face the realities of life w/o a need for various crutches…religion, drugs, etc. They are known by many names: bohemian, counterculturist, deviant, free spirit, heretic, iconoclast, individualist, loner, lone wolf, maverick, nonconformer, etc.

 
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And, while this is so often the case as to induce this proverb, there are those “exceptions to the rules” that defy such “confromity”. This usually happens because these ppl have the courage to think for themselves and face the realities of life w/o a need for various crutches…religion, drugs, etc. They are known by many names: bohemian, counterculturist, deviant, free spirit, heretic, iconoclast, individualist, loner, lone wolf, maverick, nonconformer, etc.

Don’t forget hipster, that is, the term for the vast majority of people who ever used one of those labels on themselves.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

And, while this is so often the case as to induce this proverb, there are those “exceptions to the rules” that defy such “confromity”. This usually happens because these ppl have the courage to think for themselves and face the realities of life w/o a need for various crutches…religion, drugs, etc. They are known by many names: bohemian, counterculturist, deviant, free spirit, heretic, iconoclast, individualist, loner, lone wolf, maverick, nonconformer, etc.

Don’t forget hipster, that is, the term for the vast majority of people who ever used one of those labels on themselves.

Source?
Or, are ya just envious that ya wasn’t a HIPpie, involved in “make-love-not-war”, being at the “dawning of the age of Aquarius”?
 
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No, not a hippie, a hipster …skip down to #4.

Why the fuck would i be envious of hippies? They were like the bad-smelling precursors to hipsters. I’m sure you were one, though.

 
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Religion is all about money and power.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

No, not a hippie, a hipster …skip down to #4.

Why the fuck would i be envious of hippies? They were like the bad-smelling precursors to hipsters. I’m sure you were one, though.

Nah, I was a cross between a hayseed and a nerd.
And, ya know, the only “hippies” I was ever around smelled pretty damn good.
Sure, there were—as in all demographics—some that certainly didn’t well represent the group (if such a thing even existed?)….but, opinions & “classifications” vary.

But, perhaps “we” should skip on down to #5.
It appears to have quite the “popularity of opinion”. 0¿~
Of course, I was referring to realm of #1.

So, what was it that we are supposed to be talkin’bout?
Oh yeah, PERCEPTION.
Yup….opinions & classifications of the beliefs of others.
How droll….LOL
Believe me….life is just toooooo fucking SHORT for all of that drama shit.
Of course, I’m talkin’bout the really petty crap,,,,
things that are about as low as “gossip” and envy and egoism.
Bigotry, intolerance, hate, prejudice, etc. are negative energy that kills the soul.
Getting too negatively deep into someones beliefs is just crass.
Have some class.
No one really knows shit when it comes to matters of FAITH.

It’s very likely a good thing, tho, that one does have faith in ethereal matters.
It’s even okay that one would endeavor to SHARE their feelings about their faith.
However, it usually ends up being a huge bore OR WORSE when they try to shove it up yer ass in order to collide w/ that which some other zealot is shoving down yer throat.

It’s all nice & FUN to speculate on the deity of Jesus.
But, isn’t what is more important is the MESSAGE rather than the “credentials” of the messenger?
And even how much impact his claim to be both the messenger & the author had//has?

In business, I give a shit how lavish is the fete given. I tend to go w/ the theory that the more they put into it…the more I begin to look for how weak the business proposition is. Any church that has a lot of “show” of rituals & extremely ornate & expensive “houses of worship” tend to come off as trying to “buy” its devotees via glitz.

After all, the story of Jesus was about a simple carpenter…NOT a wealthy, powerful “CEO” of a new religion as would be the “King of Kings”. His message was for ALL ppl to live a righteous life, not just the wealthy & powerful rule with.

 
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I have tried these experiments: striving to do the things Jesus taught and after studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon prayed to ask God if they are true. I have found that living them makes my life happier and sweeter. I have found my own witness from the Holy Ghost that those books of scripture are true in their witness of Jesus’ divinity as the Son of God. My saying so won’t convince you, but I would invite you to try the same experiments and see if it doesn’t make your life better.

Really? I found being trampled upon by the weak and foolish too exhausting myself. My life has only been better once I gave up pretensions of martyrdom and continual flagellation.

I wouldn’t call them “my” beliefs. They were never mine, even before i chose to ignore them.

So very apropos. Quite well said.

Don’t forget hipster, that is, the term for the vast majority of people who ever used one of those labels on themselves.

Well…guilty as charged? C’mon! Some counter culture movements were self aware. Others, maybe cripplingly so.

After all, the story of Jesus was about a simple carpenter…NOT a wealthy, powerful “CEO” of a new religion as would be the “King of Kings”. His message was for ALL ppl to live a righteous life, not just the wealthy & powerful rule with.

It’s a dangerous, volatile message. It’s something I don’t identify with, but respect the conviction of. What sickens me is the rank hypocrisy of all the soap box problem makers who lack both the honesty and fortitude to go beyond pedagouges and actually emulate their idols.

 
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Originally posted by Dante_Dreiman:
Originally posted by MyTie:

I tell you what. It doesn’t matter what you believe. That’s not what makes a lie a lie. If I told you I was a man, I would be telling the truth. However, if I was actually a woman, I would be lying to you. It wouldn’t matter if you believed the lie, or not. So, if Jesus was the son of God, then He wasn’t lying when He said he was. If He was not the son of God, then He was lying when He said He was. It wasn’t just a lie for those that don’t believe it.

I can’t tell if you don’t understand the concept of lying, or if you are just trolling.

I don’t know if you have been paying attention but a great number of people do the opposite of what i am doing, they actually take his words as fact and proclaim he was the Son of God, no questions about it. So, i am not the only one doing something “illogical” here. And seeing at how you choose to capitalize “he” when talking about him i am inclined to believe you belong to that category. Now, as far as Jesus goes we have only opinions. We can’t ask Jesus now, can we? So you are wrong, what i believe does matter. The truth won’t change according to my believes, how could it? But in the end of the day that truth is lost to us so all we have is seperate opinions.

Originally posted by TheBSG:

… What? MyTie is quite right about belief in God having nothing to do with whether Jesus is lying or not. I don’t even understand what you guys are arguing about. If you don’t believe in God, then yeah, you think Jesus was inherently lying. But if God is real, it wouldn’t mean Jesus isn’t still lying? Your belief in God is only conjugate to your belief in Jesus’ divinity. They aren’t dependent, or mutually exclusive. Logicked….?

MyTie isn’t arguing that though, lol.

Hmmmmm…May i suggest that this"philospher"should end..
 
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Hey, I’ll throw another ball at ya, What if he was a great philosopher AND an illusionist?!?
That might explain his many miracles. Btw, I’m glad that no one on the first page argued that “jesus is the son of god, cuz it sez so in muy bible!” It makes me feel happy.

 
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MyTie, logic is not a verb. Learn to be more logical.

 
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Originally posted by GentleGyroGinger:

He may have been smart enough to have made up a being of a higher plane of existence to judge us. Humans would feel underpowered and do what the preachings told them to do.

This is just a theory.

discuss

If that was true then everything I believe in would be a lie.

 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:
Originally posted by GentleGyroGinger:

He may have been smart enough to have made up a being of a higher plane of existence to judge us. Humans would feel underpowered and do what the preachings told them to do.

This is just a theory.

discuss

If that was true then everything I believe in would be a lie.

simple belief means nothing; knowledge is what truly matters.

 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

If that was true then everything I believe in would be a lie.

Huh.

Did not know that your knowledge of the English language hinged on your religious beliefs.