What happens after death page 3

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I got that it was a joke, but since I don’t read his posts anymore, I have no idea what you are agreeing with. I’d rather eat 7 pounds of broken glass than read his shitty posts. I’ll just have to assume this conversation is at a dead end.

 
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Getting back on track then, I would like to answer player03:

Originally posted by player_03:

I’m not a fan of the answer, “don’t worry; there might be an afterlife,” and I’m even less fond of, “don’t worry; I believe in an afterlife,” so beauval’s and vikaTae’s suggestions are the only ones so far I have any respect for. (Though I’m not sure vikaTae meant her comments as a suggestion.)

It wasn’t a suggestion no, at least not in the same way. Rather it was an expression of my way of thinking on these things. Rather than use the ‘hope and wait and see’ approach, or simple platitudes, I prefer to know, one way or the other.

The tools of my choice would be the ones I believe are best suited for the job – our understanding of neuroscience, and the interface technologies we have at our disposal for delving further into the brain. I would rather find out for certain whether or not something does survive, than rely on any amount of hope and faith.

So what I would recommend if you are really scared of death and you are not willing to work within the ‘god has a plan’ mindset, is you consider either funding or actively working with any effort that is trying to unlock the capabilities of the brain. After all that is where we reside. If anything of us survives after death, it will come from there.

Even if, in the worst case scanario, we find that nothing does survive, this very avenue of investigation gives us hope. In the process of unlocking the brain, we will have found out for certain which circuits are us, in the most literal sense. These could then be transplanted to another medium after brain death, giving you an artificial afterlife.

In other words even if one does not exist, the same tools will allow us to make one for ourselves.


Ironically, this approach tends to come into conflict with the ‘trust in God’ believer, who see any attempt to find out if an afterlife truly exists or not, as being an affront to their own belief system. So far there have not been violent clashes between neuroscientists and the hardcore religious mindsets but I suspect it is only a matter of time before we unlock ‘too much’ of the brain, and such incidents do begin to occur.

It is the fear of the unknown again. Their known beliefs make them feel safe. Threatening those beliefs would pit them full force into the maw of the maelstrom again, and many would do anything to prevent that from happening. A nice lie being better than a harsh reality.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Getting back on track then,…

LOL…thank ya, “girlfriend”.
It was gettin’ a little “weird” there.
I hope a few posts were able to, at least partially and for awhile, exorcize their angst-demons generated my lil’ ol’ me.

I would rather find out for certain whether or not something does survive, than rely on any amount of hope and faith.

Yeah…such is something I “ponder”. Where does this magical thing we call the spirit, life force, etc. “go”. What happens to it? Do the electrical firing of the synapes just cease? (Yeah, an overly symplistic assessment…but, I ain’t YOU…lol)

While not all that applicable to the more exteeeeeeeened issue of ones self living on after death. YOUR application of the brain’s ability to remain active, even for a BRIEF moment, after what one would consider to be death reminded me of an documentary on the guillotine Drop down to: Living Heads.

The documentary touched on how one individual instructed an associate to observe his eyes post decapitation because he would blink them as long as he could. Of course, this individual might have been merely swayed by the already occurring phenomenon.

So what I would recommend if you are really scared of death and you are not willing to work within the ‘god has a plan’ mindset, is you consider either funding or actively working with any effort that is trying to unlock the capabilities of the brain. After all that is where we reside. If anything of us survives after death, it will come from there.

Even if, in the worst case scanario, we find that nothing does survive, this very avenue of investigation gives us hope.

AND, any and all research into our brain can (hopefully?) only produce great benefits.

In the process of unlocking the brain, we will have found out for certain which circuits are us, in the most literal sense.

There ya go…AGAIN.
What have I told ‘bout this science fiction crap?
LOL
Yet, haven’t we all seen what was sci-fi just “yesterday” become de rigor today?

These could then be transplanted to another medium after brain death, giving you an artificial afterlife.

Please expand on what this “medium” might be….another human, a clone of ourself, a “computer”, what?

In other words even if one does not exist, the same tools will allow us to make one for ourselves.

Can ya use some kind of crystal ball and give me an idea of how this would be implimented (maybe addressing each of my “medium” suggestions above)? As per typcial in our current society, only the rich would probably be the first…after the “guinnea pigs” of course to have such “endowment”. But, would there be exceptions for particularly “special” ppl that weren’t “rich”? Who would pay for//assess the worthiness of these ppl….the govt., PAC’s, religious sects, Girl Scouts cookie sales?



Ironically, this approach tends to come into conflict with the ‘trust in God’ believer, who see any attempt to find out if an afterlife truly exists or not, as being an affront to their own belief system.
OH…FERSHUR.
Just look at how evolution is hotly contested.

So far, there have not been violent clashes between neuroscientists and the hardcore religious mindsets but I suspect it is only a matter of time before we unlock ‘too much’ of the brain, and such incidents do begin to occur.

NOW…ya’re sounding like jake-o. LOL
But, can ya give me some idea of the scope of this “violence” ya infer?
There is already quite a contentious “divide” between the two fields.
Would the violence come from (mostly?) the"lesseres" of the hoi palloi?

It is the fear of the unknown again. Their known beliefs make them feel safe. Threatening those beliefs would pit them full force into the maw of the maelstrom again, and many would do anything to prevent that from happening.

Spanish Inqusition style?

A nice lie being better than a harsh reality.

Damn.
I really, REALLY like that.
Did YOU just coin a great “quotable quote” for Reader’s Digest? I’m serious?
It certainly can be “applied” to many areas of the “human condition”.
 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

There ya go…AGAIN.
What have I told ‘bout this science fiction crap?
LOL
Yet, haven’t we all seen what was sci-fi just “yesterday” become de rigor today?

Not to mention, that most of my ‘science fiction crap’ is either science fact today, or is something being seriously considered by our leading researchers across the globe. In other words, its not sci-fi but something that is extremely viable.

These could then be transplanted to another medium after brain death, giving you an artificial afterlife.

Please expand on what this “medium” might be….another human, a clone of ourself, a “computer”, what?

Quite literally anything. A clone with an enginered brain, a robotic body, a very different body indeed, such as a tram or a plane say. Or just as likely a computer system with your experiences piped through a virtual reality system.

something that did come up at the AGI conference last year was the plausability of using ex-human minds as the AGIs to drive our intelligent machinery. It would after all solve the training problem, and allow us to literally ‘home grow’ them.

Regardless, if we can isolate the specific ciruits that make a person a person (and there is no reason to believe we cannot – as we can already isolate many of the circuits that do NOT contribute to being that person), then we can truly separate the body and the mind. Which means we can plug that mind into any body, with the parts of the ‘brain;’ that control that body already in place. It just needs that spark, that essence to make it go.

Loading the person with their personality, world-view, memory, skills and experiences into it, would provide that spark.


Even if the hoped-for afterlife does exist, and we find evidence of something with structure lingering or leaving after brain-death, it still gives us options. You can choose that when you die, you go on to the intended afterlife, or you can choose to stay on Earth in a new form after you die.

Or enter an afterlife of your choosing (computer simulated reality) to live out your after-life days in the scenario of your choice. Quite a few would opt for that, I suspect. To be able to tailor-make an afterlife to their exacting specifications.

As per typcial in our current society, only the rich would probably be the first…after the “guinnea pigs” of course to have such “endowment”. But, would there be exceptions for particularly “special” ppl that weren’t “rich”? Who would pay for//assess the worthiness of these ppl….the govt., PAC’s, religious sects, Girl Scouts cookie sales?

If you subscribe to Ray’s rule of accelerating intelligence (I do), then computing power is going to continue to increase in power for most of this century, and continue to drop in cost. By 2030 a computer with the processing power of the human brain is projected to cost about $1,000. By 2040 a computer with the processing power of every human brain alive at that time (about 9-10 billion) is projected to cost around $1,000. Projections get a bit wild after that point, as the speed of increase is expected to accelerate.

At the same time, we’ll be sending microbots into the body increasingly routinely, and using robotic surgical systems to continually bring the cost of complex surgeries down, as well as diminish the facilities necessary. So yes, as we increasingly find we have room for trillions of minds on the global computer network, and the costs involved in putting a mind there start to creep into the realm of the ordinary consumer, I can see it becoming quite a commonplace procedure, the same as deciding between a burial plot and a cremation is considered now.

There is no ‘worthiness’ to consider in the sense you mean. Some of these minds will choose to stay in their own manifested realities (VR) inside the system. Others will no doubt not be satisfied with that, and continue to contribute to the R&D or culture of the species as a whole, helping to accelerate the development of new systems, which would allow still more minds to be stored.

Worthiness thus disappears and it becomes a matter of personal choice to upload or go on to the original afterlife.

NOW…ya’re sounding like jake-o. LOL
But, can ya give me some idea of the scope of this “violence” ya infer?

There are already cases of death threats being sent via the post to researchers developing vaccines, because of the fear some people have with vaccinations and what their side effects are (in their minds). There are cases of abortion doctors being shot or stabbed because of how their practices interfere with the religious views of the person doing the shooting or stabbing.

I can see that kind of violence starting to hit neuroscientists as well, because we’re continually using science to threaten the core of their belief system. Peeling away the layers of mystery and exposing the human brain for what it is – an organic computer system.

There will likely be a few incidents as the zealots decide what we are doing is too ungodly to be allowed to continue.

A nice lie being better than a harsh reality.

Damn.
I really, REALLY like that.
Did YOU just coin a great “quotable quote” for Reader’s Digest? I’m serious?
It certainly can be “applied” to many areas of the “human condition”.

I don’t believe I’ve invented it. I have heard similar statements made by others, if not quite those exact words. Still true however. Humans in general find more comfort in the lies they tell themselves than in the cold reality of the situation.

If you wish to take that quote and use it, please be my guest.

 
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Being religious is having faith on a God.
I trust that a celestial being would show me the afterlife.
What kept my faith going is my trust.
I never had any signs from God
Praying grants assurance of something. I prayed to restore my relationship with my friend and it hit me while I was praying. we used to go together on churches.
Perhaps it was given to me what I had to do.
I never remembered it but it is said that my body was failing when I was young.
Apparently my body can’t handle it and I happened to die.
The doctors couldn’t do anything and told my parents I was dead and there was no signs of life on me.
My body seemed rotting as I die. but after some hours. They said I suddenly woke up and everything on me was working better than before.

 
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Originally posted by FrancisFire:
The doctors couldn’t do anything and told my parents I was dead and there was no signs of life on me.
My body seemed rotting as I die. but after some hours. They said I suddenly woke up and everything on me was working better than before.

Hmmmm….veeeerrrrry “interesting”.
Some hours….eh?
 
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Twelve minutes is about the limit. After that, well there’s not much left of your brain, never mind the rest. It’ll start decaying within minutes, and by this point the process is nigh irreversible.

The brain’s actually the first to start to decay. As it is a complex network of extremely tiny intersecting circuitry channels, such decay has devastating consequences upon this network – and the losses in function mount up geometrically for again, very obvious reasons.

So unless they put a new brain in your body (which we currently cannot do), I am going to call bullshit on your story.

 
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LOL…vika, always the optimistic visionary: ..(which we CURRENTLY cannot do)..

But, I have some questions regarding your post responding to mine.

I agree, most anything capable of being envisioned these days (w/in the realm of reason) shouldn’t at all be so easily dismissed as “sci-fi”..

I would luved to have sat in on that AGI conference as they presented various thoughts….esp. that of using EX-minds of humans to drive intelligent machinery. Of course, they don’t mean using the actual physical brain of a dead person (Frankie?), but rather that essence which ya’re talking about being (soon?) able to be “harvested”….post mortem I hope…lol.

But, it certainly did answer my question about a brilliant, yet impoverished, mind being valued well beyond those of the “gentry”. The ramifications of having brilliant minds being—at the very least—a kind of “living library” that can still function well beyond that station. This then begs the question: would this “functioning brain” still be able to “grow”? Would it be able to assimilate NEW data and continue its great work well beyond that thus achieved at the death of its former “host”?

Yeah, I totally forgot that such technology would be so advanced that the cost of it should be quite low. BUT, we mustn’t forget the CAPALTISTIC nature of humans to suck blood from a stone. I cite the pharmaceutical industry as an example. Hopefully, common sense in regards to the welfare of society at large would prevail…..OH GAWD, I’m a fucking socialist.

I don’t know “Ray”, but I agree w/ his “rule”. We have just recently opened the door to the Information Age….not even sure if all we’ve yet really done is just peeked in rather than having even crossed the threshold. I see a huge explosion of innovation because of the aggregation of ALL KNOWN EXISTING DATA.

AND, just as the microchip replaced the tubes, transistors, etc…..our current “computers” very likely WILL BE evolved into something resembling them in only that they access, process, and express data….PROBABLY even w/ EMOTION factored in.

BUT, this brings me to a couple of areas I want a comparison on from ya. How much of the movie Matrix could be a possibility? How likely could this battle between science & “religion” eventually DEvolve to something akin to a modern “dark ages”. I say this reversal of progress being absolutely possible because of that ya said about: There will likely be a few incidents as the zealots decide what we are doing is too ungodly to be allowed to continue.

These zealots can run the gamut from the lunatic assassin (Dr. Tiller’s death) right on up to politicos (our own Gov. Sam Brownback) so filled w/ running a society by the Word of God that they lose sight of the utter destruction they are doing.

 
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Originally posted by FrancisFire:


The doctors couldn’t do anything and told my parents I was dead and there was no signs of life on me.
My body seemed rotting as I die. but after some hours. They said I suddenly woke up and everything on me was working better than before.

…few hours dead? did you wake up in the morgue? because I’m pretty sure doctors don’t let dead patients stay in the room after death that long.
and the way you put it.. just doesn’t sound right.

were you hooked up to machines? like a cbp pump, a respirator, so on.
because then it might make it a bit.. more plausible, otherwise
nah, yeah nah.

 
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Marcus Aurelius, Emperor of Rome:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

This is exactly how I feel, and what I’ve gathered from it, is this: Live your life, no matter who you are or what you will be. If you are unsure of God, it will all be okay. Don’t worry about it. In the end, nobody living can know what happens after death, and in death, is only when we will know. Don’t spend your entire life stressed out over what may or may not be, instead, enjoy your time here. If there is a God, you will be forgiven, if there isn’t? Well, it won’t matter because you made your time last. No matter what you believe in, what’s done is done. We will all die, it’s inevitable. We should spend our time here coming to terms with this, and making the best of it.

 
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  • Why are you religious?
    I was raised by the church, and God found me.
  • What keeps your faith going?
    I have felt his experiences before and still do.
  • Have you had any signs from god?
    I did have a dream about God once, I can’t really remember what happened he was just floating there. I could see his nose?
  • Has anything you’ve prayed for ever come true?
    I prayed for good grades in high school, and I started getting good grades because I helped myself get better. (God Helps those who help themselves.)
  • Have you had any near-death experiences, or out of body experiences?
    I was walking off the bus and that was when the Game boy was the SHIT. Everyone had one, so I was just playing Yu-gi-oh and I wanted to switch to Poke’mon. When I did that the game fell out of my hands and I stopped to pick it up…. I got HIT IN THE FACE by a side view mirror from a speeding car, I flipped in mid-air twice and landed on the street. If it wasn’t for that Yu-Gi-Oh game I would have been crushed between the wheels of the car. But the thing is I remember having a strong grip on it, it just “slipped out”.
 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:
I was walking off the bus and that was when the Game boy was the SHIT. Everyone had one, so I was just playing Yu-gi-oh and I wanted to switch to Poke’mon. When I did that the game fell out of my hands and I stopped to pick it up…. I got HIT IN THE FACE by a rear view mirror from a speeding car, I flipped in mid-air twice and landed on the street. If it wasn’t for that Yu-Gi-Oh game I would have been crushed between the wheels of the car. But the thing is I remember having a strong grip on it, it just “slipped out”.

Okay, if I’m understanding you correctly, you were standing in the middle of a street where there were cars going fast enough to not notice you and hit you hard enough for the side-view mirror (not rear-view, that’s the one that’s inside the car) to send you airborn.

Yeah, you deserved to get hit.

 
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(If you are understanding me correctly?)

No, I walked of the bus, when there was a car that came out of the blue and almost killed me, cars are supposed to obey the stop sign that retracts from the bus and then I got hit…. With the side view mirror-yes.

 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

(If you are understanding me correctly?)

No, I walked of the bus,

And somehow I completely forgot about the bus.

 
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I was avoiding debating religion in this thread, but no on else did, and this is too good to pass up.

I prayed for good grades in high school, and I started getting good grades because I helped myself get better. (God Helps those who help themselves.)

…so tho same result would have happened regardless of whether or not you prayed to God?
In fact let’s look at prayer, in general. How often is it that you have a prayer that goes unanswered? Why does it go unanswered? Because God has some sort of plan, and that is not part of it? If God has a plan, and has to follow it, why bother praying to him? You are either in the plan, or not, and praying would change nothing.

 
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Originally posted by JohnRulz:

I was avoiding debating religion in this thread, but no on else did, and this is too good to pass up.

I prayed for good grades in high school, and I started getting good grades because I helped myself get better. (God Helps those who help themselves.)

…so tho same result would have happened regardless of whether or not you prayed to God?
In fact let’s look at prayer, in general. How often is it that you have a prayer that goes unanswered? Why does it go unanswered? Because God has some sort of plan, and that is not part of it? If God has a plan, and has to follow it, why bother praying to him? You are either in the plan, or not, and praying would change nothing.

JhonRulz (9/18/2013)

(You failed in avoiding a debate with religion. But I won’t!)


Well I didn’t really post in this thread so I can debate my religion. with any

terrorist

I just simply answered Harry_mess with my honest opinion. (The guy who posted this topic.)

(TAKE THAT MOTHA’ FLOWA’!!!!!!!!!)

 
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Oh, silly me. I had forgotten anyone who dares question God is a terrorist. Nevermind the fact that all the terrorists you know about committed terrorism because that is what they thought their God wanted.
It may indicate that your beliefs are not well thought about if you cannot answer simple (and common) questions concerning the effectiveness of prayer. If your not interested in critical thinking, that’s your thing. No need to close your mind and start calling names as soon as someone questions something you say.

 
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Originally posted by JohnRulz:

Oh, silly me. I had forgotten anyone who dares question God is a terrorist.

That’s just his (to me really stupid) way of calling someone a troll – though, by saying that, it makes him sound more like a troll. I should stop thinking too much about this… Or maybe just anyone who disagrees with him, I forget which.

 
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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

1.How about you make a thread that debates religion again that I won’t attend ?

It was just one post.

So we don’t misuse kongregate, which you are doing now.

To be fair, you are also posting here and therefore “missusing” this forum too.

You can also stop any time you want.

2. NONONONONO! That is not the definition of terrorist.

What isn’t? Did he even say what it was, or just what it wasn’t?

Yes one day, that slang will pick up.

What slang? You’re being very vague.

Terrorista’ -A person who terrorizes others.

Well if you really want to get that anal about the definition of terrorist you’re also going to have to define terrorize, and what he said could hardly be called terrorizing, because I doubt that it actually filled you with terror; a better usage would be harrasment, but even that isn’t very accurate.

Like troll and brony and all those other slangs.

Technically, neither of those are “slangs” themselves, just words that are part of Internet slang.

EDIT: Well that got removed quickly.

 
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Obsessed? Not at all. I like to debate philosophy. God is a fun aspect of philosophy. You and I both know that, even if I were to start a new thread on prayer, you wouldn’t reply anyway. There is nothing I can do about that, other than try to trick you into actually considering the question as a legitimate one, through various psychological tricks. It doesn’t look like it will be worth it though, as it is pretty clear you are just some kid who who has never seriously thought about religion. You won’t answer me because you don’t know the answer, and are neither mature enough to admit it nor clever enough to google it.

 
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“God is a fun aspect of philosophy. You and I both know that”


You sure do like to talk alot -about philosophy.

God is not a philosophy, its a reality , I certainly don’t agree with you on that.^

Buddhism however is a philosophy.

Don’t try using logic like that.

 
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Philosophy can be reality. And how long do you intend to dodge the question, while responding to other parts of my post? Either answer me, or ignore me. Don’t try to do both at the same time, it makes you look bad.

The “You and I both know that” was followed by a comma and unrelated to the previous sentence.
And stop editing your posts so much

 
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All of this

for a couple louzy questions…ohh jeez.

“…so tho same result would have happened regardless of whether or not you prayed to God?”

No, if I didn’t pray I probably wouldn’t have got those good grades. Because god helps those who helps themselves.

“In fact let’s look at prayer, in general. How often is it that you have a prayer that goes unanswered?”

I don’t know I don’t keep count…..That was a dumb question.

“Why does it go unanswered?”

Because its his plan I guess, DIDN’T you JUST answer that yourself?

“Because God has some sort of plan, and that is not part of it?”

What is your point, you just answered your own question except you put a question mark at the end of the sentence.

“If God has a plan, and has to follow it, why bother praying to him? You are either in the plan, or not, and praying would change nothing.”

(Oh, good point)

Yep you basically explained it yourself.


Answer these two questios for me…And respond to the statement after.

Yeah so? What is the big deal? Shut UP! (And I say this while I’m whispering loudly.)