What happens after death page 4

212 posts

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No, if I didn’t pray I probably wouldn’t have got those good grades. Because god helps those who helps themselves.

I don’t pray to god, so how do I get good grades?

The other questions are rhetorical, except for the last one. It looks like you just accidentally agreed that prayer is completely ineffective, and doesn’t matter. If it is effective, you should explain where I went wrong in the steps leading to my conclusion.

The big deal is that it is important to understand the religion one follows, instead of just following blindly.

 
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FACEPALM Its not only grades. Its job applications, sports, arts, girlfriends, bullies, safety, relatives, cars, business, taxes, financial status. Are all of these OTHER subjects oblivious to you? Because I know you have trouble in atleast one of these things.

-My big brother has a crappy car, but he wants to save up money for a better one or you want it to last longer. But the bills, the taxes, the gas, the groceries just won’t cut it.
Maybe if you prayed, and continued working for it motivated, you can get what you want or even better…. .What you deserve.

(Booh yah)

 
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Although I would be interseted tp know how it is possible for the universe to exist(or for there to even be a thing such as existence)

since

nothing can be created or destroyed
and nothing can simply just exist

 
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I fail to see how praying changes anything, if it is my own hard work that gets me these things. When I said:

If God has a plan, and has to follow it, why bother praying to him? You are either in the plan, or not, and praying would change nothing.

You just said I had a “good point” and appeared to agree. This would indicate prayer is pointless, yet you are still arguing in favor of prayer. Did you misread my statement?

to use the green quotes, simply put bq. and a space before the selection you wish to quote.

Originally posted by Galdos:

Although I would be interseted tp know how it is possible for the universe to exist(or for there to even be a thing such as existence)

since

nothing can be created or destroyed
and nothing can simply just exist

The universe has always existed, in some form of another, since the conception of time. Nothing was “created”, what was already there simply expanded from a singularity, to make the universe.

 
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Originally posted by Galdos:

Although I would be interseted tp know how it is possible for the universe to exist(or for there to even be a thing such as existence)

since

nothing can be created or destroyed
and nothing can simply just exist

I looked online, this better answer your fucking question, because if it doesn’t I don’t know.
God created the world, with the things he already had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HoqSas2uFKw

 
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technically, we don’t have freewill, so nothing matters

everything is calculated and there is an scientific explanation for everything, which means that our thoughts can be calculated if we knew everything in the universe.

we are only processes.

wish it were different

 
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“You just said I had a “good point” and appeared to agree. This would indicate prayer is pointless, yet you are still arguing in favor of prayer. Did you misread my statement?”

AHEM! You have a choice to be in Gods plan or Not, you already said that. You just want to know if praying is useful or if it does anything. It is a tool that helps you do better, keeps god close, and forgives your sins.

Prayer does make you do better. Even if you failed, you did better than you where going to originally. But when you pray for something like a get into varsity, he will decide if the plan interferes and will help you help yourself.

(Is that simple enough?)

 
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Originally posted by Galdos:

technically, we don’t have freewill, so nothing matters

everything is calculated and there is an scientific explanation for everything, which means that our thoughts can be calculated if we knew everything in the universe.

we are only processes.

wish it were different

That is YOUR problem and YOUR opinion. You can change it anytime.

 
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You have a choice to be in the plan, or not. A choice

This means I am able to interfere with God’s plan? Awesome!

Praying comforts you and is a tool that lets you remember that God is by your side.

This is sensible.

This is the same post, but with formatting removed. I hope this helps:

bq. You have a choice to be in the plan, or not. A choice
<empty>
This means I am able to interfere with God's plan? Awesome!
<empty>
bq. Praying comforts you and is a tool that lets you remember that God is by your side.
<empty>
This is sensible.

 
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“This means I am able to interfere with God’s plan? Awesome!"

Yep, God is king enough to give you that choice.

 
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Regarding free will: It doesn’t exists. Choice is illusion. Multiple studies show that choices are made at the subconscious level, before we are aware of them. Meaning, if I hook you up to the right machine, I can know what you are going to do before you do. So free will is incredibly unlikely, though not entirely so yet. More science needs to be done.

There is also the fact that math supports free will being an illusion. Specifically, Godel’s incompleteness theorems. Consciousness is the aspect of ourselves that is self aware—meaning the part of ourselves that describes ourselves. Through Gödel’s second incompleteness theorem, our consciousness is complete yet fundamentally inconsistent. However, on a subconscious level, we do not have statements about ourselves. As a result, we conclude through Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem that subconscious self is not complete, but is consistent. Because it is not complete, it is incapable of learning new information on it’s own, instead relying on input from the conscious self. There are two major implications of this, the first being anything capable of true learning has to be conscious, to some degree. The second is that consciousness will always provide the illusion of free will, as it is inconsistent. If it were consistent, you would be able to know what you would “choose” beforehand. Conversely, we have to be deterministic on the subconscious level. Unless the methodology of the studies previously mentioned was incredibly flawed, this proves free will to be illusionary.

Not to mention that everything else in the usiverse is governed by deterministic laws and causality (aside from the occasional aspect of quantum mechanics). So why would our minds be different?

 
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The thing is that when humans see something simple as free will, they HAVE to find a really long explanation and make it very complicated.You said that free will doesn’t exist and you went on and on explaining why its not real and blah blah blah.

Its like me and you are making a project together on what horses it. Instead YOU want to explain what they don’t eat. That is what you are doing to free will.

Here are your reasons why free will doesn’t exist.

Originally posted by JohnRulz:

Regarding free will: It doesn’t exists. Choice is illusion. Multiple studies show that choices are made at the subconscious level, before we are aware of them. Meaning, if I hook you up to the right machine, I can know what you are going to do before you do. So free will is incredibly unlikely, though not entirely so yet. More science needs to be done.

There is also the fact that math supports free will being an illusion. Specifically, Godel’s incompleteness theorems. Consciousness is the aspect of ourselves that is self aware—meaning the part of ourselves that describes ourselves. Through Gödel’s second incompleteness theorem, our consciousness is complete yet fundamentally inconsistent. However, on a subconscious level, we do not have statements about ourselves. As a result, we conclude through Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem that subconscious self is not complete, but is consistent. Because it is not complete, it is incapable of learning new information on it’s own, instead relying on input from the conscious self. There are two major implications of this, the first being anything capable of true learning has to be conscious, to some degree. The second is that consciousness will always provide the illusion of free will, as it is inconsistent. If it were consistent, you would be able to know what you would “choose” beforehand. Conversely, we have to be deterministic on the subconscious level. Unless the methodology of the studies previously mentioned was incredibly flawed, this proves free will to be illusionary.

Not to mention that everything else in the usiverse is governed by deterministic laws and causality (aside from the occasional aspect of quantum mechanics). So why would our minds be different?

You based your reasons on theory and rules that people accept because it is almost right some times and things that can’t be proven.
_____________

Here are my reasons why free will exists.

Cuz’ God gave use Free will and the choice to do things. Subconscious choices like chewing your nails don’t count. The future is complicated, God already knew what you where going to do, but he gave us the choice to do that thing. Its confusing but at least its 3 sentences long.
 
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You based your reasons on theory and rules that people accept because it is almost right some times and things that can’t be proven.

I based it on
-Neuroscience, which showed decisions originate in the subconscious
-Math, which proves subconscious decisions are deterministic. Do not be thrown off by the word “theorem”, it is completely proven. See the link for the proofs.
-Physics, which has shown every macro-phenomenon as deterministic.

The math and physics are proven. The neuroscience is fairly conclusive. This is far more evidence than you provided.

All you did is say “God gave us free will” (it says nothing of the sort in the Bible), and then tried to explain how free will and God’s omniscience can exists simultaneously (they can’t). If God knows exactly what you are going to do, how can you call it a choice? It would have to, by definition, be predetermined. You may still feel like it was a choice, but that does not mean it was a choice.

 
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Well, am not a religious guy, so my answer is pretty much evident…
After death, there is nothing.

 
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“Neuroscience, which showed decisions originate in the subconscious”

No it didn’t, God gave us free will. Subconscious is doing something like chewing your nails. And you don’t notice it until you do it. Then you have the will too stop. Have you seen the Green Lantern? Will is the most powerful thing in the universe.

“Math, which proves subconscious decisions are deterministic. Do not be thrown off by the word.”

Ok give me an example using MATH.

“theorem”, it is completely proven. See the link for the proofs.”

I read the links and the FIRST paragraph said its actually not proven… And its not a universal fact. A universal fact would be that some plants are green.


“All you did is say “God gave us free will” (it says nothing of the sort in the Bible), and then tried to explain how free will and God’s omniscience can exists simultaneously (they can’t). If God knows exactly what you are going to do, how can you call it a choice? It would have to, by definition, be predetermined. You may still feel like it was a choice, but that does not mean it was a choice.”

(DID YOU JUST SAY IT DOESN’T SAY THAT IN THE BIBLE? Whaaaa????)

  • YES it does SAY that.
  • God doesn’t have omniscience, God IS the omniscience. God IS GOD! What does God mean? The one supreme being who created the universe. God isn’t a god, God IS THE GOD.
  • Yes, God knows your next move, but you already made that move in the future. He was already in the future. So he knew what you did and therefore knows what you do now.
 
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Originally posted by Dacister:

Well, am not a religious guy, so my answer is pretty much evident…
After death, there is nothing.

………………….That sucks. Life is so short.

 
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Yup’, and the “death-time” is very long.
But, this is life (troll ?).

We all know that one day or another, we’re going to know what’s after death.
Maybe nothing, as science tried to prove it, or maybe something ?
Reincarni ?

Just said that I don’t believe in these reincarnations things.

 
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You are gravely misreading what I say. The math example was Godel’s incompleteness theorems. The link I was referencing as proof was the second one.

No it didn’t, God gave us free will. Subconscious is doing something like chewing your nails. And you don’t notice it until you do it. Then you have the will too stop. Have you seen the Green Lantern? Will is the most powerful thing in the universe.

I know you feel like you have free will. I am not arguing that you don’t. I am going to say this as clearly as I can: Free will is an illusion. Simply saying that you feel like you make choices does not mean free will exists. If the bible says that humans have free will, show me exactly where it says so. Cite a specific passage. Here are some passages concerning predestination: Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Both expressly mention predestination.

Ok give me an example using MATH.

The math was Godel’s incompleteness theorem.

I read the links and the FIRST paragraph said its actually not proven… And its not a universal fact. A universal fact would be that some plants are green.

I have said multiple times the neuroscience was not proven. I was clearly mentioning incompleteness theorem as proven in that sentence.

Yes, God knows your next move, but you already made that move in the future. He was already in the future. So he knew what you did and therefore knows what you do now.

If there is only one possible future as forseen by God, then there is nothing you can do to interfere with it. You have no control over it, then there is no free will.

 
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“I know you feel like you have free will. I am not arguing that you don’t. I am going to say this as clearly as I can: Free will is an illusion. Simply saying that you feel like you make choices does not mean free will exists. If the bible says that humans have free will, show me exactly where it says so. Cite a specific passage. Here are some passages concerning predestination: Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Both expressly mention predestination.”

  • Actually what you are saying is that I feel I don’t have free will which is like a mock, which I am not gonna let slide. I KNOW I have free will, Free will to type the number three between parenthesis……(3) Perfect example. You subdue yourself to thinking you don’t have free will. Its like being raped by your own logic saying that you don’t have free will to stop it.

“The math was Godel’s incompleteness theorem.”

1. I wanted YOU to do the math, to see if you can do it in every situations when you argue with people in real life.

“I have said multiple times the neuroscience was not proven. I was clearly mentioning incompleteness theorem as proven in that sentence.”

AND I said multiple times that it is not a universal fact, and that it is not proven, again. But now I will say that the incompleteness theorem is just a postulate that works half the time. Barely… Its not a UNIVERSAL fact.

“If there is only one possible future as forseen by God, then there is nothing you can do to interfere with it. You have no control over it, then there is no free will.”

Nooo, there are many possible futures foreseen by God, but you already chose one, and he knew which one you chose, that is how he knows.

 
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since we are not people by our definition and dont have freewill, it wont matter that there is an eternity of nothingness.

 
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Originally posted by Galdos:

since we are not people by our definition and dont have freewill, it wont matter that there is an eternity of nothingness.

That, is your opinion.

(How did you get a blue “D” next to your profile name?)

 
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I KNOW I have free will, Free will to type the number three between parenthesis……(3) Perfect example.

As I said, you only think that the number 3 was chosen. I am saying the number three was picked by your subconscious beforehand, and 3 was the only number you could have possibly chosen under those conditions. If I were to travel back in time and waited for you to post again, the number you used would still be 3.

You subdue yourself to thinking you don’t have free will. Its like being raped by your own logic saying that you don’t have free will to stop it

I don’t subdue myself into anything. My behavior has not changed. My actions are still my own. I still do not know what “decision” I will make before I actually make a “decision”. I not am using the fact that free will doesn’t exist to succumb to my every impulse—that would be some sort of strange, cyclical logic.

I wanted YOU to do the math, to see if you can do it in every situations when you argue with people in real life.

What? You expect me to reinvent Godel’s incompleteness theorem every time I argue using it? I know the theorem, and it’s proofs off the top of my head, and fully understand it. I can use it effectively in an argument.

But now I will say that the incompleteness theorem is just a postulate that works half the time.

It is universal, and it is proven. If you think it isn’t, then give an example where it doesn’t work. Start providing evidence for your opinions, as just stating what you believe is not enough in a debate.

Nooo, there are many possible futures foreseen by God, but you already chose one, and he knew which one you chose, that is how he knows.

The same problem still exists. If God knows what you chose beforehand, then it is still the only thing that you could have chosen, and there would only be one future. Let’s ignore that though, to focus on the other part.
Lets assume that for every possible “choice” there is another universe, à la many worlds theory. In any given universe, the decision was still predestined. For example, say I were to choose to move my left or right hand right now, so there is now a universe where I moved my left hand (Universe A), and one where I moved my right hand (Universe B). In each universe, that was still the only possible outcome. The me in universe A could never have chosen to move his right hand, as then the me in universe A would not exists. Likewise for universe B. Predestination still holds true in each universe.
If your multiple futures theory is true, then it wouldn’t even matter if choices were made subconsciously. Free will could not exist with multiple futures, as each universe would have to be defined by what happened in it, thus making it predetermined.
I have a feeling you will completely misinterpret this somehow.

 
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“As I said, you only think that the number 3 was chosen. I am saying the number three was picked by your subconscious beforehand, and 3 was the only number you could have possibly chosen under those conditions. If I were to travel back in time and waited for you to post again, the number you used would still be 3."

I CHOSE what my subconscious before it could choose. Then it chose what I chose and it starts all over again.

“I don’t subdue myself into anything. My behavior has not changed. My actions are still my own. I still do not know what “decision” I will make before I actually make a “decision”. I not am using the fact that free will doesn’t exist to succumb to my every impulse—that would be some sort of strange, cyclical logic.”

  • We are not talking about every impulse like chewing your nails.
  • I never said your behavior has changed, you where ALREADY subdued yourself to logic again by saying your behavior didn’t change.
  • It doesn’t matter if you don’t know what you are going to do until you do it, that is still free will.

“What? You expect me to reinvent Godel’s incompleteness theorem every time I argue using it? I know the theorem, and it’s proofs off the top of my head, and fully understand it. I can use it effectively in an argument.”

(……Bullshit.)

  • Yes I expect you to reinvent his model every time you argue with it or else it won’t be effective.
  • I am also just stating these things of the bottom of my ass the top of my head just like you.

“It is universal, and it is proven. If you think it isn’t, then give an example where it doesn’t work. Start providing evidence for your opinions, as just stating what you believe is not enough in a debate.”

  • It is not universal because the first PARAGRAPH of your link says so and it says it is not proven.

“The same problem still exists. If God knows what you chose beforehand, then it is still the only thing that you could have chosen, and there would only be one future. Let’s ignore that though, to focus on the other part.”

No I won’t ignore it. You chose what you did for your subconscious ,and God knows every action you might pick and how to react to it, he is just waiting for you to pick one.

“Lets assume that for every possible “choice” there is another universe, à la many worlds theory. In any given universe, the decision was still predestined. For example, say I were to choose to move my left or right hand right now, so there is now a universe where I moved my left hand (Universe A), and one where I moved my right hand (Universe B). In each universe, that was still the only possible outcome. The me in universe A could never have chosen to move his right hand, as then the me in universe A would not exists. Likewise for universe B. Predestination still holds true in each universe.”

  • Talking avout multiple universes makes a simple statement too complicated.
  • No, there are many (universes)futures but one will take place, the one you chose. The other futures would have never happened. They might have happened but then got canceled by the chosen future.
  • Have you seen Men in Black 3? It disproves your statement. Will Smith went back in time to change his decision, again and again until finally he got it right and saved his partner. It was his free will to fix his old decisions. Because those other universes where “defects” and he was just changing what was SUPPOSED to happen, so he acted as the subconscious for his past self to fix the future which God already foresaw.

Also, there was this alien who is from the fourth dimension who sees the future, he sees multiple futures(universes) and tells Will Smith about it. But then it was wrong, and he sees different futures and only one future will take place and the Alien and Will Smith will act appropriately to it.

“I have a feeling you will completely misinterpret this somehow.”

I interpreted right, I just put an answer you don’t like that will get you confused….

 
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I CHOSE what my subconscious before it could choose. Then it chose what I chose and it starts all over again.

I’ll ignore the obvious paradox in your answer. By definition, your conscience self cannot control your subconscious. You could make an argument that your conscience can veto your unconscious, but such a claim would have no evidence. Still, it would be an improvement.

We are not talking about every impulse like chewing your nails.

I know that we aren’t, but there are times where it looked like you didn’t.

I never said your behavior has changed, you where ALREADY subdued yourself to logic again by saying your behavior didn’t change.

But there was a point when i believed in free will. Once I stopped believing in free will, nothing changed. Nothing is being subdued.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t know what you are going to do until you do it, that is still free will.

Are you suggesting that if I did know what choice I would make before the choices were presented, and could do nothing to change it, it would still be free will?

Yes I expect you to reinvent his model every time you argue with it or else it won’t be effective.

That is like saying I need to reinvent addition before I can say 2+2=4. This makes me think that you mean something else. Please clarify.

I am also just stating these things of the bottom of my ass the top of my head just like you.

I am only able to say this off the top of my head because I researched it beforehand. There exists strong arguments for free will, and I invite you go and research them. Once you fully understand them, use them against me.

It is not universal because the first PARAGRAPH of your link says so and it says it is not proven.

Are we reading the same thing? I am still talking about Godel. Let me see where you might be reading it wrong.

“Gödel’s incompleteness theorems are two theorems of mathematical logic that establish inherent limitations of all but the most trivial axiomatic systems capable of doing arithmetic.”

By “most trivial”, the mean the systems that aren’t really capable of doing anything at all. While it was intended for arithmetic, the theorems hold true for any system. Reading his two theorems should make that evident. Next part is really important:

“The theorems, proven by Kurt Gödel in 1931”

The page also contains the proofs. If you think you can argue against them, be my guest.

“Hilbert’s second problem”

Perhaps this is the point that through you off. His second problem doesn’t really apply here, as it is self evident that the conscious and subconscious have problems of consistence and completeness. Argue against it if you can. Be sure to point toward specific flaws.

Talking about [sic] multiple universes makes a simple statement too complicated.

I am sorry, I wasn’t trying to over complicate things. I was just trying to use an actual scientific theory to substantiate what you said.

No, there are many (universes)futures but one will take place, the one you chose. The other futures would have never happened. They might have happened but then got canceled by the chosen future.

So there is only one real possible future again, with the others being simply imaginary. This future still suffers from the same problem of being the defined by your choice, thus making it so there was no choice to begin with. In this future, your choice still was the only possibility, else it wouldn’t be that future.

Have you seen Men in Black 3? It disproves your statement. Will Smith went back in time to change his decision, again and again until finally he got it right and saved his partner.

This complicates things. In reality, Will Smith would have to traveled to a copy of the same past. Otherwise, the will smith who traveled to the past would not exist.
When Will Smith goes back in time, he replaces the WS of the past. This causes a paradox, as the WS of the past was also the WS who did the replacing. This would mean the past WS never had the chance to progress to the future and then travel back in time to replace himself. If past WS is never replaced, then the future WS is now able to go back in time and replace himself again. This is a basic sort of time travel paradox, with the only solution being he didn’t travel back to the same past. Instead, he kept switching to wholly different timelines until he found one where his partner survives. In this new timeline, his survival is still the only possibility. I hope I explained that well enough, paradoxes are confusing by nature.

Also, there was this alien who is from the fourth dimension who sees the future, he sees multiple futures(universes) and tells Will Smith about it. But then it was wrong, and he sees different futures and only one future will take place and the Alien and Will Smith will act appropriately to it

So this alien is saying WS will always act the same way and his partner will survive. This would, again, imply there was no choice, if that is the only possible future.

I interpreted right, I just put an answer you don’t like that will get you confused….

I liked your answers much better, actually. You started providing evidence.

 
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Truth is, scientifically speaking, nobody knows what it’s like after death. Sure, there will be plenty of people that say they know based on their beliefs, but from a completely scientific standpoint we don’t know what happens. You are going to die someday so we will all find out eventually, for now I would focus on life more.