What happens after death page 7

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Felt I should say I really enjoyed your post on how our identity is tied to our substrate (word of the week :)) and dependent upon our various electromagnetic/hormonal/ systems, that any soul which departs from a body is not the entirety of of the given individual.

 
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Did you mean Johnny or me? He seems to have extrapolated on the concept a bit.

 
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Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

B the soul retains memory separately. Problem with this is that the memories we have and that make us us are not the ones we always had. Quite actually we can´t be Us without our very ability to forget things or at less muddle them up(just at Jho, he could not continue to be who he his without being able to forget what SD discussed last month).

Option B is the much more likely of the two. You would retain whatever was active at the time. Ie producing an electromagnetic charge. So your short term memory, your current emotional state and whichever fragments of knowledge were currently in your head, intigrated into the matrix of your active thought process. That’s pretty much it.

Longer term memories whilst still stored with a charge, use a much, much weaker charge and are additionally separated because the I/O channels of the memory retrieval system (hello hippocampus, yes, I mean you) are inactive for this memory atm. Its not being read or written to, so its not as directly tied into the active computation process. The brain would need to increase activity to tie specific memories in. So likely it would be whatever you were actively thinking about in your dying moments and sod all else.

Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

Felt I should say I really enjoyed your post on how our identity is tied to our substrate (word of the week :)) and dependent upon our various electromagnetic/hormonal/ systems, that any soul which departs from a body is not the entirety of of the given individual.

It is even worse than that. It is not specifically tied to our substrate. Whilst no attempt to replicate the quantum-level processes active in the wetware of the brain on a non-organic substrate (usually silicon), have been successful, it is possible to recreate a simulation environment on which the brain runs which acts as a go-between for your thoughts and the fundamental quantum mechanics behind your thoughts.

In more simplistic terms this means that even if your mind was transferred to a silicon substrate, your thoughts and thought processes would still be identical to how they were on the organic wetware substrate you were using before, because from your brain activity’s point of view, the actual quantum effects would be hidden, dealt with by the intermediate layer beyond your control whose job is basically to simulate the required quantum level effects of the organic substrate on the inorganic one, for your brain to build upon.

As a result, your mind has substrate-independence. Regardless of the substrate it is running on, it can still run identically.

However, and this is where the ‘worse than that’ bit comes in. As humans we make use of something called embodied cognition as the basis for our neural architecture. This basically means that the way we think, and the way our brains have developed to think is directly related and derived from the embodiment we have.

Two arms, two legs, ten fingers, a pair of boobies, all influence the way data has been assiliated into our growing brain structure, and the fundamental architecture our brain has developed under.

Now, the brain is remarkably plastic: you change the embodiment of an individual, and within a relatively short span, the brain will adapt to incorporate the new body parts in addition to the old. You chop parts off, and the same thing happens. However, this does take time.

In the moments of death you don’t have very long at all to react. Your brain starts to rot literally as soon as blood flow stops, and within twelve minutes the process is irreversible. So if you do leave with a copy of your active processes, the vast majority of what you are at that time, is geared precisely to work your physical body. A body you suddenly no-longer have, at all.

So effectively, the vast majority of you, is now completely useless. As you’ll be an imprint, not an active mind – the active processes being wetware that’s in the process of rotting – you have also lost the ability to adapt to a new embodiment.

Not exactly a cheerful image, to say the least.

 
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Modern science notwithstanding, there is no known natural medium through which a dying brain evacuates its memory and dumps.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:

Modern science notwithstanding, there is no known natural medium through which a dying brain evacuates its memory and dumps.

Hence the imprint idea. It could well be that’s what ghosts are. An imprint of a highly complex electromagnetic field. No actual mind there to speak of.

Isn’t that a joyous thought?

 
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You go to Hell. Unless you think you have what it takes to join Me in Heaven. Which you don’t, because I can see a plethora of things in your OP which would warrant your safe journey to Hell.


Putting Hell aside, do you humans know anything about Hypercommunication? I pose this question only to maintain a standard conversation, for I already know what you know and do not know!

 
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Originally posted by SpearDudezor:

You go to Hell. Unless you think you have what it takes to join Me in Heaven. Which you don’t, because I can see a plethora of things in your OP which would warrant your safe journey to Hell.

Originally posted by TheBSG:

Nobody who believes in heaven thinks they’re going to hell.

 
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Originally posted by TheBSG:
Originally posted by SpearDudezor:

You go to Hell. Unless you think you have what it takes to join Me in Heaven. Which you don’t, because I can see a plethora of things in your OP which would warrant your safe journey to Hell.

Originally posted by TheBSG:

Nobody who believes in heaven thinks they’re going to hell.

As the Lord, I tell you that this is not the truth.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:

B the soul retains memory separately. Problem with this is that the memories we have and that make us us are not the ones we always had. Quite actually we can´t be Us without our very ability to forget things or at less muddle them up(just at Jho, he could not continue to be who he his without being able to forget what SD discussed last month).

Option B is the much more likely of the two. You would retain whatever was active at the time. Ie producing an electromagnetic charge. So your short term memory, your current emotional state and whichever fragments of knowledge were currently in your head, intigrated into the matrix of your active thought process. That’s pretty much it.

Longer term memories whilst still stored with a charge, use a much, much weaker charge and are additionally separated because the I/O channels of the memory retrieval system (hello hippocampus, yes, I mean you) are inactive for this memory atm. Its not being read or written to, so its not as directly tied into the active computation process. The brain would need to increase activity to tie specific memories in. So likely it would be whatever you were actively thinking about in your dying moments and sod all else.

Thats not option B but actually the opposite(instead of all memories you just get some of the currently running stuff) and very close to A. Just that unlike A the above arbitrarily chooses a time to save the consciousness somewhat before the process of dying leads to major damage to the running Conscious. Besides the Save still not leading to a decent copy of the person in question so that it could be considered continuation of existence, the major problem is the arbitrary timing on when the Save is supposed to be made.

A makes the save obviously at the time death(a obvious trigger) when there is nothing meaningful left to save.
B makes saves all time(so no arbitrary time needed), but getting too much memory in the bargain to be us.

 
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I don’t think getting all memory engrams would be possible, precisely because the I/O process is a complex thing involving multiple proteins. It’s fundamentally too slow to index all the memories in that time. You may get a random selection based on the associations of what you were thinking of at the time, press into active memory, but you certainly won’t get the entire bloc.

You definitely wouldn’t end up with a copy of the person. At best, you would end up with another engram. This one being the electromagnetic equivalent of a disk image file.

As I said above, most of it would be embodied cognition – autonomic functions and embodied sensory feedback – like proprioception, and of course an electromyogram-style snapshot of the skeletal muscle control signals going the other way. The actual higher brain functions would be a tiny part of the whole, and I see no reason they wouldn’t be in snapshot form too.

You’d get at best ten seconds of ‘cognition’ in a loop, a set recording of the thoughts and partial thoughts going through the cortex at the time. I say ten seconds, because we know the oldest ‘so called’ active thought processes are being processed by the brain about 9-10 seconds before they reach the conscious mind, and 1-2 seconds after (as demonstrated by the presence of ERPs related to cognition just gone by in the alpha brainwave pattern).

So you’d get maybe a short program sort of thing. Either an analogy to a film loop where the same sequence plays out as before, or analogous to a branching conditional statement program where some pseudo-cognition would be possible, but ONLY related to what thoughts and processes were active in the brain at the time the imprint was made.

No new cognition would likely be possible, as the circuitry’s gone, and you just have that after-image there. So if the possible pathways aren’t already laid out in the matrix of the snapshot image, that path cannot be taken. Even then, unless the snapshot is going somewhere, it’ll deteriorate over time until its lost in the background radiation – the same way as ghosts fade into nothingness over time, getting weaker and weaker until nothing remains.

 
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I worship The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I am a Pastafarian Believer and in the afterlife you go to Pastafarian heaven.

 
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As a result, your mind has substrate-independence. Regardless of the substrate it is running on, it can still run identically.
However, and this is where the ‘worse than that’ bit comes in. As humans we make use of something called embodied cognition as the basis for our neural architecture. This basically means that the way we think, and the way our brains have developed to think is directly related and derived from the embodiment we have.
Two arms, two legs, ten fingers, a pair of boobies, all influence the way data has been assiliated into our growing brain structure, and the fundamental architecture our brain has developed under.
Now, the brain is remarkably plastic: you change the embodiment of an individual, and within a relatively short span, the brain will adapt to incorporate the new body parts in addition to the old. You chop parts off, and the same thing happens. However, this does take time.

Although, in order to functionally operate an identical fake brain, would we not have to create an identical fake body? Not necessarily a literal form, but that the interrelated qualities of the two are virtually endless, fluid and omnipresent. Blood pressure, tactile levels, neurotransmitter thresholds, hormonal effects on development, foreign chemicals triggering receptors, ect. The loss of the body (Without, some form of analog) seems to me the loss of self.

Also the idea of plasticity and dynamism is a very interesting notion, especially for any physical substrate to hold an analog. We have a whole system of mind-creation, mind-destruction, altering the very structure of our mind. We could perhaps program such things identically as a virtual simulation, but I think we’d be quite hard pressed to recreate them tangibly.

Although, an interesting notion is how much of the brain we could remove as uneccessary, in removing the body. Hm.

Hence the imprint idea. It could well be that’s what ghosts are. An imprint of a highly complex electromagnetic field. No actual mind there to speak of.

To hold you to task, an imprint upon what exactly? Would it not dissipate readily with no physical tie reasserting those forces? Would it not be totally static?

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

Although, an interesting notion is how much of the brain we could remove as uneccessary, in removing the body. Hm.

THIS is exactly why embodied cognition is not as great a hindrance to a substrate transfer as it might at first seem, yes. If those aspects of the body are gone, we can strip those aspects of the central nervous system out right along with them.

Additionally, whilst the embodiment you have had up until that point has molded your thought processes at a fundamental level, that very same plasticity means you can still adapt to a new embodiment. You will keep the old architecture and slowly change what you need to in order to embrace the new.

To hold you to task, an imprint upon what exactly? Would it not dissipate readily with no physical tie reasserting those forces? Would it not be totally static?

An imprint upon exactly what, I’m really not sure. However I think the only way you can ‘save’ an electrogagnetic field when the generator goes is via imprint. Certainly in the form of an electromagnetic field in the atmosphere at that point, but I really haven’t fleshed out what it is imprinting on enough to say for certain.

Dissipation would be inevitable, basic nature of being electromagnetic in nature. The field is not a static object; no electromagnetic field is. Unless it is somehow imprinting on the 2D nature of the projected universe, it is going to keep flowing as it was at the moment the generator went offline.

That would mean it was capable of cognition of a sort – capable of following the conditional pathways that are present within it. That would give the field a limited decision-making capability, although it could only make decisions about those concepts that were active at the time of imprint. Very, VERY limited cognitive capability in other words, almost like being caught in a loop.

Even if it did imprint on something we don’t fully grasp yet (where my bets are hedged) it will ultimately succumb to entropy, yes. Even a physical imprint would ultimately be worn away by the looping ‘cognition’ pathways, or even the basic ever-moving loops of ‘static’ engrams (those not being actively thought about still move in loops).

 
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Additionally, whilst the embodiment you have had up until that point has molded your thought processes at a fundamental level, that very same plasticity means you can still adapt to a new embodiment. You will keep the old architecture and slowly change what you need to in order to embrace the new.

Which is an interesting proposition. We’ve talked before about what is “human” and how the relates to where our potential technologies and sentience intersect. It would be interesting to see the consequences of such a transition at large, how divergent freedom from the traditional mechanisms of the body could become. It also begs the question of where would we draw that line? So much of our bodily nature is one of limitations, one of external agencies, innate qualities. Hunger, adrenal anger, changes of form and appearance. Such things if carried over, would have to be carried over Intentionally. It may come to the time when we must choose to remain similar, or choose to throw off what has become unnecessary and artificial and perhaps simply punitive.

Dissipation would be inevitable, basic nature of being electromagnetic in nature. The field is not a static object; no electromagnetic field is. Unless it is somehow imprinting on the 2D nature of the projected universe, it is going to keep flowing as it was at the moment the generator went offline. That would mean it was capable of cognition of a sort – capable of following the conditional pathways that are present within it. That would give the field a limited decision-making capability, although it could only make decisions about those concepts that were active at the time of imprint. Very, VERY limited cognitive capability in other words, almost like being caught in a loop.

Wouldn’t that dissipation be quite rapid? As far as the field being static, I suppose I was being too literal. The patterns involved in it’s generation/maintenance would be gone, it would be a literal moment and from that it would flow? This may be a labored analogy. But I imagine a ball on a rope, being spun in circles, the rope snaps. The ball continues moving, but in the same conditions or manner as before. I don’t see how the electromagnetic field could actualize the potential pathways, where is the energy source? Also, although we do generate an electromagnetic field, is that to the same fidelity as our various neural channels? Wouldn’t those fields by fuzzy beyond function?

Also, kind of divergent, but our imprint substrate the old ‘aether’, brings to mind another intangible I was speaking with a few people about. Some of the theories about further dimensions posit some frightening conclusions. Namely, that processes over there result in consequences here. (Say, atomic generation). Which is kind of unassuming, except that we cannot perceive the foreign processes, only the local consequences. Given that, total empiricism becomes impossible, cause and effect as observable, ordered, logical processes collapse. Things occur that remain, unto our ken, perfectly spontaneous and forever beyond our grasp. We would forever be at the mercy of an alien power, perhaps of no important magnitude, but nevertheless.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

Such things if carried over, would have to be carried over Intentionally. It may come to the time when we must choose to remain similar, or choose to throw off what has become unnecessary and artificial and perhaps simply punitive.

Precisely.

It’s an interesting thing to think about, especially when you remember we are making real measurable progress in reverse engineering and disassembling the brain. Once we have mapped out what everything does, and precisely where in the brain each section is, along with which sections each communicates with and what data is shared, then we can literally pick and choose which sections we would wish to map over, and which we don’t.

Even in something like a radically different embodiment, we have other options as well, just to make this more interesting. With your body right now, all the interfacing between your higher thought functions and your body control circuitry travels through the pons.

Both the medula and the cerebellum are in effect a separate brain, communicating with the rest through that one structure. Between the three, they deal with all of your autonomous and manual bodily functions. If we were to cut those off, provided we replaced them with something that could interpret what the signals sent into the pons were asking for, and which signals to send back, we could then in theory give you practically any body we felt like.

Your embodiment is the same as far as your brain processes are aware, but the controls have been mapped externally to a different form.

Wouldn’t that dissipation be quite rapid?

In theory, yes. It certainly is the case with brainwaves normally.

As far as the field being static, I suppose I was being too literal. The patterns involved in it’s generation/maintenance would be gone, it would be a literal moment and from that it would flow? This may be a labored analogy. But I imagine a ball on a rope, being spun in circles, the rope snaps. The ball continues moving, but in the same conditions or manner as before. I don’t see how the electromagnetic field could actualize the potential pathways, where is the energy source?

Energy source would theoretically be itself. As with your ball on a rope concept, after the rope snaps, the part that is distant from the snap, continues to process as before, until the snap keeps up with it. Energy flows down the easiest channel, and if that channel is part of a highly complex conditional system, it would make sense that energy would continue to flow down those channels for as long as the channel integrity held and there was more energy behind.

Also, although we do generate an electromagnetic field, is that to the same fidelity as our various neural channels?

Yeeees, and no.

It is of the same fidelity inside the brain itself, with every electrical discharge creating its own unique field. When we try to detect these fields outside of the brain, or by travelling through them en-masse, that’s when we lose fidelity, as opposing signals effectively cancel out, and with billions of tiny signals layered right on top of each other in a densely packed 3D structure, you would be extremely hard-pressed to come at it from an angle where you weren’t effectively losing tens or hundreds of thousands of unique signals due to this cancellation problem, even with a naked brain in a background noise shielded room.

However, if you were able to discard the brain itself, but leave the patterns in place, then yes they would be of the same fidelity as the original signals. You simply would not be able to detect those deeper inside the structure, without passing through those on the outer layers and having their waveforms add or subtract from your result.

The organic brain does not utilise a wide range of frequencies, which doesn’t help. Anywhere from 0.9hz in parts of the optic nerve to 100 hz in the center of the somatosensory system. That’s the entire range.

Also, kind of divergent, but our imprint substrate the old ‘aether’, brings to mind another intangible I was speaking with a few people about. Some of the theories about further dimensions posit some frightening conclusions. Namely, that processes over there result in consequences here. (Say, atomic generation). Which is kind of unassuming, except that we cannot perceive the foreign processes, only the local consequences. Given that, total empiricism becomes impossible, cause and effect as observable, ordered, logical processes collapse. Things occur that remain, unto our ken, perfectly spontaneous and forever beyond our grasp. We would forever be at the mercy of an alien power, perhaps of no important magnitude, but nevertheless.

Yea, that’s close to the heart of the matter with my struggle to comprehend what could be going on in terms of something surviving. I’m approaching things from an odd angle. My family on my mother’s side has an odd ‘awareness’ you might say. My grandmother had it, my mum has it, and apparently I have it. Though I could not tell you what it is, or where it comes from.

I’ve partaken in sayances where events I cannot explain have transpired, and I’m enough of a geek to have to hand equipment to check if the sudden ice-cold sensations in my entire arm are just my brain playing tricks. Apparently if my brain was playing tricks, it was also fooling the digital thermometer. The events have been repeatable, and I have no explanation. upturned glasses on home made boards (torn pieces of notepaper with writing on) manage to move intelligently without as near as I can determine, anything other than downward force. It has freaked me out to no small extent over the years.

It has (obviously) gotten to the point where I suspect there’s something else going on, but am at a loss to explain what. As such I’m trying to quasi-scientifically reverse engineer the process of what might be going on. So I’m coming at things from a radically different angle to usual.

Only quasi-scientifically because our oh-so-unhelpful level of scientific knowledge hasn’t trod where I wish to go, so I have no laws whatsoever to base my guesswork on. Same as with your dimensional speculation. We don’t know, but can only reasonably infer, and hope for the encroachment of science in the area. I’m really not happy with the whole concept that there might be laws we are completely unable to measure from our observation point, regardless of what method we might use.

 
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According to holly books go will go with a place of rest depending on how you live if you do good krma then you get a place called Paradise otherwise you get Spirit Prison..

 
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I am personally a Christian, and have faith in God that the best will happen. If God were not to exist, and no religion did, then nothing that I do will matter so I am not concerned.

 
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Originally posted by randomperson2864:

I am personally a Christian, and have faith in God that the best will happen. If God were not to exist, and no religion did, then nothing that I do will matter so I am not concerned.

kinda presumptuous to think that anything you do matters, don’tcha think?

 
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Perhaps. On the flip side, if you are correct and nothing I do matters, then what do I have to worry about anyway? Religion gives meaning and purpose to life if you ask me.

 
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Originally posted by urine420:

kinda presumptuous to think that anything you do matters, don’tcha think?

Not really. It matters to other people, other sentients living on the rock at the same time you are, and with whom your path intersects.

 
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When we die, our atoms are recycled in the cycle of life, and all that remains is in how we affected the world around us.
(which means that, if you wish to bestow meaning upon a word like “soul” the world around us carries our souls after we die)

 
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not quite sure whether you want a religion-based answer or a factual answer, but I think that it’s just like you’re sleeping for eternity; you won’t really notice anything.

 
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When you die it will be quite similar to how it was before you were born. You didn’t have a functioning brain then, and you wont when you’re dead. All that consciousness is, your ability to see, feel, think, ect., all it is is your brain interpreting the world around you. It feels so “real”, but it’s nothing more than just your brain working. That would explain why we dream right? Because our brain continues to function while we’re asleep.
It seems really hard to accept that as a logical reason for why we think and feel, but to me, that is the ONLY logical explanation. Any deity, god, afterlife, It’s all completely illogical in my mind. Common sense would point against it. I also think that common sense points to there being nothing after life. Our brain is not working, so there is literally nothing.
It’s an extremely uncomfortable topic to think about, and for that reason I truly truly wish that I could be religious, however I know that even if I tried to make myself believe, it would all be a lie. I can’t say that I KNOW there’s no god because that pisses people off and I have no proof, but the chances of there being a god or afterlife seem infinitesimally low.
Most people who share this belief with me believe that one must create his/her own meaning in life since from this standpoint, there seems to be none. I don’t necessarily agree with this, but I also don’t think death is worth stressing over.

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

― Mark Twain
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-Tom

 
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If you don’t believe in god, then I guess this is what happens: We still are thinking, but we can’t move or anything because our conciseness left our bodies, disabling any control of it. So you don’t have eyes or anything, all you can do is think about your life, what you did, forever. I think our conciseness is a element, even another matter, that thinks for it’s own. We are tied to these bodies, which are made of earthly elements, and we are in control. The sad thing is, we all die, we all live forever, but only temporally in these kick ass bodies. After death, you are stuck to your thoughts.

 
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Originally posted by Bobneson:

If you don’t believe in god, then I guess this is what happens: We still are thinking, but we can’t move or anything because our conciseness left our bodies, disabling any control of it. So you don’t have eyes or anything, all you can do is think about your life, what you did, forever.

Why would we continue to think if our brain isn’t functioning?