SOCIALISM: the pros & cons page 2

67 posts

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Originally posted by PatriotSaint:
Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

Socialism is the transition stage to communism. The complete phase change does not always happen. When it does, the country is now communist and all religion is abolished.

You’re not even trying to hide that you’re a troll anymore, are you?

Explain how I’m being a troll.

You disagree with those who would like to see America be just another Communist China….eventually.

 
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Let’s face it, some have imagination and invent and others don’t and demand the imaginative one give the awards to them. This is exactly what is being proposed by the socialists on this forum. Take from those who earn and give to those who are lazy. It’s simple black and white. My ancestors and my family have fought and shed blood for the freedoms of our country. Now I have to listen to those too afraid to protect our freedoms offer them up to a dictator. Obama is not socialist? LOL, someone is living in a dream world. Our unemployment has risen again and our economy is contracting because this is what you of limited thinking wanted…another four years of nothing but poverty.

This is the mindset of the people on this forum.

Since I be votin’ for Obama, my taxes have gone up, my employer stopped offering health insurance and and they want to take my guns away. Damn you George Bush.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Let’s face it, some have imagination and invent and others don’t and demand the imaginative one give the awards to them. This is exactly what is being proposed by the socialists on this forum. Take from those who earn and give to those who are lazy. It’s simple black and white. My ancestors and my family have fought and shed blood for the freedoms of our country. Now I have to listen to those too afraid to protect our freedoms offer them up to a dictator. Obama is not socialist? LOL, someone is living in a dream world. Our unemployment has risen again and our economy is contracting because this is what you of limited thinking wanted…another four years of nothing but poverty.

This is the mindset of the people on this forum.

Since I be votin’ for Obama, my taxes have gone up, my employer stopped offering health insurance and and they want to take my guns away. Damn you George Bush.

It’s not innovation v.s. Lazyness. The “Lazy” don’t have the capability of innovation because the people who have already prospered from the “imagination” have already patented everything possible to progress. The current inventors are the ones working for low pay for the cunning people who have devised a way into the government, using the money that the brats of the past innovators have gathered through inheritance. The people don’t own the government, businesses do. This is clearly evident.

Most current military men will agree with me that they are not over there “fighting for America’s freedom”. That is a stupid thing to say. Domestic America created these freedoms through societal progression, not bloodshed.

As for the economy, have you been informed of anything that is happening lately? The GOP is purposefully, and has admitted to, destroying the world economy in order to get their point across. People need to understand that the economy does not suddenly change for better or worse when we elect a new president. The economic state of our country is the product of years upon years of market interactions and policies, the extensive effects of which are never fully seen right away.

As for Obama being a socialist…

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Originally posted by PatriotSaint:

Explain how I’m being a troll.

You disagree with those who would like to see America be just another Communist China….eventually.

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Why ya need to make a second post to explain YOUR above opinion is beyond me.
Let’s face it, it certainly IS NOT “inventive”.
I was beginning to wonder where the most staunch anit-socialist for this site was hiding.
I’m most glad ya finally showed up so—as I stated in the OP—we can “use” ya & yer parroting (of conservative media shit-mouths) as a means to show how utterly loony-tunes the the “disinformation-minds” are buying into the garbage the upper 10% is shoving up their asses.
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Let’s face it, some have imagination and invent and others don’t and demand the imaginative one give the awards to them.

Whatever are YOU talking about?
“Imagination and invent?”
Is this the new bullet point of the rabid-right commentators whose main objective is to so cleverly distort the truth at to keep hate stirred up so as to hide just how hugely the disparity of economic station in America is?

jake-o, you have been told many, MANY times that, while there MOST CERTAINLY is abuse of “welfare”, a great amount of what is “given to others” via taxation of those who do have is for programs that support the TRULY NEEDY.

This is the kind of “reporting” that is the kind of “typically-limited tree” via which the extremely narrowed-minded seek out and respond to.

I seriously doubt that kind of fraud & abuse of the “welfare system” is what “liberals” have in mind when they endeavor to establish programs to help the TRULY NEEDY.
Rather, such waste of beneficial resources (tax dollars) is the result of huge oversight of the INVENTIVENESS of those who do seek to defraud these programs.

But, as YOU have been told many times by the “socialist liberals” on this forum, the true abuse of taxes and taxation exemption is squarely on the shoulders of corporate America big business_. Yet, YOU have consistently managed to keep your mind so tightly closed on this truth and YOU have, in lock-step agreement w/ the shit delivered by the puppets of this corporate America, steadfastly clung to the hugely distorted view that some nefarious group of “do-gooders” is ruining America…..simply because they have compassion for their fellow man/woman,,,even if said compassion is ill-fulfilled because of poorly conceived programs.

While on the other hand, “programs” that so insanely benefit the wealthy in America are extremely crafted. At this time, budget cuts are focusing ONLY on “social” programs and totally ignoring where the true fraud and abusing of the American ideal is going on.
This is well addressed by the following: “As the U.S. Congress debated welfare policy, the media spotlight focused on the need to cut spending to the poorest people in the nation. At the same time, there was no or minimal coverage of policies that send billions of government dollars to corporate interests from oil companies to agribusiness to firms producing arms.”

“Looking across the breadth of the U.S. budget and policies, a key question arises: Whose welfare is the government serving — the people’s or corporations’?”

jake-o, THAT is the kind of key questions YOU should be asking.
BUT, for some very odd reason, it would appear that ya are either incapable of doing so,,,
or, just haven’t the interest in doing so.
Lord knows, we have shoved many similar challenges right up your ass.

 
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Guys, I’m sorry about a double post.
I had to break it into two posts so it wouldn’t be compressed (no paragraphs) and the links wouldn’t work.

America is no longer a nation of We the People. It is now We the Corporations,, who run America via a governing body that responds to their Plutocracy
“The word plutocracy is almost always used as a pejorative to describe or warn against an undesirable condition,23 and throughout history political thinkers such as Winston Churchill, 19th-century French sociologist and historian Alexis de Tocqueville and 19th-century Spanish monarchist Juan Donoso Cortés have condemned those they characterize as plutocrats for ignoring their social responsibilities to the poor, using their power to serve their own purposes and thereby increasing poverty and nurturing class conflict, and corrupting their societies with greed and hedonism.”

This is exactly what is being proposed by the socialists on this forum. Take from those who earn and give to those who are lazy.

N O
That is what YOU ignorantly (as in IGNORE) garner from the many things being presented by these “socialist”.
THAT is what YOU do.
Ya take a word (one which YOU have been shown to have many, MANY meanings) and hammer it endlessly as if saying it long-&-loudly enough somehow will make it true.

What YOU are unable to see is that the economic wealth produced by the working class—which includes the working poor being hugely gobbled up by the wealthy via corporate welfare: financial assistance, as tax breaks or subsidies, given by the government to profit-making companies, especially large corporations.

We have this going on right now in Kansas via Gov Brownback’s insane proposals. Keep an ear to the ground, we’ll be seeing more & more of this GOP-lead shit over the next few years.

It is the latest tactic to squeeze money from the working class so the wealthy can continue to get even richer.

It’s simple black and white.

N O
NOTHING is simple black and white.
Ignorant ppl NEED to believe this so their mind-set is able to make “sense” of the very complex world around them. And then, to make this naturally complexity even more difficult to understand….they are bombarded w/ bullshit (smoke-&-mirrors) from the mouth-puppets of the rich.

My ancestors and my family have fought and shed blood for the freedoms of our country.

Yeah….yeah…yeah.
And, many of the “poor” did so, too.
Poor that now need “assistance” because of the shifting of their earnings towards the top 10%.

Now I have to listen to those too afraid to protect our freedoms offer them up to a dictator.

Oh, fucking bullshit.
What is the really problem is that YOU listen to the idiots that WANT ya to believe such blather….and NOT SEE the other shit going on right in front of YOUR eyes.

Obama is not socialist? LOL, someone is living in a dream world.

Ya mean a “dream world” where one sees ONLY that which agrees w/ their particular biases and totally ignores that which is directly in front of them?

Our unemployment has risen again and our economy is contracting because this is what you of limited thinking wanted…another four years of nothing but poverty.

jake-o, we can’t “employ” ppl w/ jobs that have been sent overseas AND TO CANADA. I made a phone call to complain about bad service received. I asked where the person I was talking to lived…CANADA.

This obsession YOU have w/ a flacid economic market being the result of Pres. Obama rather than the machinations of the wealthy is just astounding. This kind of thinking is what I hoped would be brought to this thread as the “counter-point”.

This is the mindset of the people on this forum.

Since I be votin’ for Obama, my taxes have gone up, my employer stopped offering health insurance and and they want to take my guns away. Damn you George Bush.

Yup.
Let’s NOT know the truth…
let’s, instead, listen to the distortion of the rabid-right mouth-puppets who promote the agenda of the wealthy.
 
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jhco, I doubt if you have ever read George Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier, but you really, really ought to. Because it’s about you. In it, he sets out very clearly why people like you, who would benefit greatly from a little socialism, actually reject it out of hand for a whole bunch of illogical reasons.

Set aside a few hours to widen your horizons and give it a go. He lays out his arguments far better than any of us could. You will find it to be a real eye opener.

 
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Why do I dismiss socialism. It is not out of hand, it is from watching it work. We were not set up as a socialist country because we didn’t want an all powerful government. We wanted to be free and we are the freest country in the world, still. We are free to speak our minds, speak against our government if that is what we want. We have freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. We still have some privacy. But we are losing them to a section of society who feel we are too free and should be reigned in.

Take Karma for instance. I have read many of his posts and he believes in a socialist country, even though he denies it when he feels he is cornered. So many of our people are becoming slaves to the progressives (another name for socialists), believing they are here to show compassion to those have-nots who have basically shortened their education through their own actions. These were the class clowns, the ones who skipped school and sneaked out back to smoke. The ones who trashed people’s property with graffiti or stole what they wanted when they felt the need. They were offered education and denied it. Now they have nothing to fall back on so they whine and moan that the rich have all the wealth. Well some might, but there is opportunity if you look for it. Even for those who wasted their chances.

I don’t believe in supporting those who have wasted their lives, period. I do believe in helping those who have fallen to get back up, but this isn’t what Karma and his ilk are demanding. They believe in supporting those who waste their lives sitting in front of the TV smoking their dope and drinking their beer. I don’t get my ideals from talking heads on TV. I have lived a long life and seen the dredges of society take advantage of those that would help them. But these are the people some wish to supply all of the luxuries of life, yet won’t contribute their own wealth. Instead they want to pass laws to demand everyone else support these people.

Socialism promises equal status among all, but doesn’t truthfully provide it. It takes from the earners and gives to the slackers. I get sick of hearing the progressives moan that conservatives won’t bend over for a rape of society to make these progressives feel good. America wasn’t founded on socialism and I’m guessing the majority don’t want it since Karma and his socialist friends aren’t getting what they demand.

I have seen every petty issue, on everything from abortion to socialism, argued (I would hardly call it discussion) on this forum. Two factions bubble to the top, socialists and American patriots. They clash on every subject because one side wants to neuter America and the other wants America to stay a free country. This is why Obama got a second term. After four years of hell and the promise he made for more of the same, progressives danced to the polls. Well guess what, unemployment has gone up and the economy is contracting. America is deteriorating before our eyes, just like the progressives hoped for. Can America survive this onslaught of socialism (dictatorship?)? I don’t know, but I will go down fighting, which ever road becomes apparent.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Why do I dismiss socialism.

YOU dismiss it because:
FIRST: ya really don’t even know what it is.
YOU think ya do….but, in truth, ya’re using faaaaar too small of a sampling applied to an extremely biased framework. Such is blatantly obvious in that very “simplistic” RANT of yours.
I’m surprised ya didn’t toss in the Pledge of Allegiance.

SECOND: ya dismiss it because ya have to do so for the simple reason that ya really have nothing with which to make a REALISTIC case against it. That rambling montage of a “nuevo-right” manifesto of yours so aptly demonstrates just how pathetically limited a person’s understanding of the enormity & complexity of a social order as that of the U.S can be.

But, this segment of the society is those I call “mushrooms”. Keep ’em in the dark and feed them bullshit. Tell them what they like/want/need to hear….regardless if it is good for them or seriously harmful to them.

THIRD: and this is the really sadist and oddest and really downright CREEPY part is how far too many Americans so totally are unable to acknowledge the existence of (let alone the extent of) how America has loooooong been a plutocracy rather than a viable democracy.

Even when given substantiated $$$$$$ amounts on how economic power is distributed in America, even w/ all of the commentaries available for discovery of FACTS on this issue, even when we’ve long known that “the-rich-just-get-richer-&-the-poor-just-get-poorer”…..even w/ all of this information on how we have such huge economic disparity in America and how such a socio-economic situation is at the root of most all of the social ills….the “odd-ppl” choose to just shove their heads even further up their asses and recite their PERSONAL mantra that stokes the fires of their bigoted biases.

OH, btw…one more thing that is extreeeeeemly obvious about how little YOU know about….well, (PROBABLY?) most things of a “societal nature”, is that I DO NOT “deny being a socialist when cornered”.

I have loooooong and proudly proffered that I am a “socialist”.
YOUR “problem” is that YOU just don’t want to know what socialism truly is.
AND, the really funny part about all of it is that YOU are actually involved (as WILLINGLY participate) in a very large amount & degree of socialistic practices. LOL

YOU really, REALLY ought to read that book beauval suggested…..seroiusly.
A small amount of NEW perspective can do wonders.

 
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All I can say to you Karma is you must be a sad person living in a state with American Patriots who look down on you and your out of place beliefs. You must suffer terribly. You are not going to take America and destroy everything it stands for so why don’t you find a country that is governed as you would like and migrate? Seriously, I’m not trying to be nasty or trying to denigrate you, but you seem to be unhappy with the way America is and there are countries that might accept your philosophies with open arms. You would probably be much happier in a place that accepted your ideas more readily and at our age, we should be where we are happiest. I might suggest Panama. I have actually looked at Panama and their way of life. It doesn’t look all that bad with national healthcare and all. You might really enjoy the lifestyle they offer. You could enjoy a life of ease on retirement funds. It is very cheap to live there. I understand it is one of the top areas for retired couples.

http://www.retireinpanama.info/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-peddicord/retire-overseas-panama-six-top-retirement-havens-in-one_b_2277036.html

 
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We wanted to be free and we are the freest country in the world, still. We are free to speak our minds, speak against our government if that is what we want. We have freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. We still have some privacy. But we are losing them to a section of society who feel we are too free and should be reigned in.

Easy now. Stuff like the NDAA (National Defense AUthorization Act), or AUMF (Authorization For Use of Military Force Against Terrorists) make that a little hard to swallow. American citizens are were subject to indefinite, immediate, detention by military personnel based upon snap, phantom charges. Now just foreigners. That’s on paper, and is far less evocative of socialism as it is nationalist fascism. AUMF has already been used to justify warrantless surveillance multiple times, and that’s only when they’ve been caught.

If you are concerned about government expansion/interference you have to look beyond left based social policy. Taxes suck, sure, and represent to some degree a loss of choice and an imposition of force. But if you are truly worried about the systematic stripping of personal rights to defiance and safety then it is the rightest hawks who are working upon setting up the legal architecture and tangible means to do that.

Consider we got the first drone runs on us citizens, on us soil, yesterday. Spooky.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

Consider we got the first drone runs on us citizens, on us soil, yesterday. Spooky.

Any sources on that, please Ung? It piqued my interest as I didn’t think we were ready for that yet, but I can find no news coverage of such a flight.

 
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Any sources on that, please Ung? It piqued my interest as I didn’t think we were ready for that yet, but I can find no news coverage of such a flight.

Certainly :) Although, I was a little misinformed. Initially Salon was told they were, now their source is denying it. It caused a lot of flak initially, so they may have pulled it back. Won’t be known until it is proven I suppose. Regardless a Predator drone was recently used in North Dakota previously. So “first” may be out of the question.

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/11/dorner_a_drone_target_on_u_s_soil/
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-drones-border-patrol-489/ (more general)

There was also a shocking White Letter document leaked a little while back on using drones to assassinate domestic targets.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/all-the-kings-drones-15063268 (pretty pithey but sets it up)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/obama-kill-list-doj-memo (little more terse and respected)
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/566483-020413-doj-white-paper.html (the document in question)

Spooky stuff. Especially in the wake of their last big press ‘oopsie’. I can’t track down the original video transcript. But it’s audio/video log of a drone operator accidentally blowing a kid up. Reassuring.

http://www.businessinsider.com/did-we-just-kill-a-kid-nicola-abe-der-spiegel-brandon-bryant-2012-12

 
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socialism is the perfect system but it is oppressed by the white rightist elitist racist sexist power

with socialism their reign of oppression will be over

 
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Originally posted by kevinmitnick:

socialism is the perfect system but it is oppressed by the white rightist elitist racist sexist power

with socialism their reign of oppression will be over

You young man are in great need of a practical knowledge of life as it really is. I can tell by your sentence structure you are young and lack any real experience to compare this country with socialist countries. I would try to explain the differences, but I don’t believe you would understand.

 
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If you’re going to troll about spewing nonsense, I’m pretty forgiving. But could you at least keep it tiny? This large garbage cluttering things up is kinda tiresome.

 
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Originally posted by ColtArmy:
Originally posted by kevinmitnick:

socialism is the perfect system but it is oppressed by the white rightist elitist racist sexist power

with socialism their reign of oppression will be over

You young man are in great need of a practical knowledge of life as it really is. I can tell by your sentence structure you are young and lack any real experience to compare this country with socialist countries. I would try to explain the differences, but I don’t believe you would understand.

Why not go ahead and give it a shot, Colt?
YOUR reply there is pretty “lacking”.
I"d be very interested to see just how much YOU “understand” of the “differences”.
Ya do know that “opinions” vary?
 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

If you’re going to troll about spewing nonsense, I’m pretty forgiving. But could you at least keep it tiny? This large garbage cluttering things up is kinda tiresome.

noones trolling.
all my posts are informative and on topic.
(except the pic i posted)

 
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We were not set up as a socialist country because we didn’t want an all powerful government. We wanted to be free…

We weren’t set up as a socialist country either, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t take socialism’s best ideas and apply them to ourselves. Whichever of socialism’s many definitions you adopt, I don’t think there is any country on earth which can be called truly socialist. A few aspire to it, but none actually achieve it. The British experience seems to be that outgoing Labour governments tend to leave a legacy of several good ideas badly implemented. More pragmatic governments then tweak them to make them affordable, often diluting them in the process, and then they become part of British culture. I imagine the same could be said of much of western Europe. None of us have all-powerful governments, and there’s nothing to stop socialism and freedom going hand in hand.

Take Karma for instance. I have read many of his posts and he believes in a socialist country

I see nothing in Karma’s posts to suggest that he wants the USA to be a socialist country. He just wants to cherry pick the best bits to improve the USA.

Seriously, I’m not trying to be nasty or trying to denigrate you, but you seem to be unhappy with the way America is and there are countries that might accept your philosophies with open arms.

Talking of freedom, it’s beginning to sound as if you advocate a one-party state.

The rest of your reply just reinforces my feeling that The Road to Wigan Pier is just the book for you. 1984 has sold countless millions of copies, so Orwell is clearly a very approachable writer.

 
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Beauval, improvement in Karma’s eyes is not improvement for everyone. He wants to make changes not everyone wants, just him and his ilk. His improvements are not to make the US better, it is to make him feel good and to hell with everyone else. Our country fought for independence because we didn’t like England’s type of government, so why would we accept it as wonderful now?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Beauval, improvement in Karma’s eyes is not improvement for everyone. He wants to make changes not everyone wants, just him and his ilk. His improvements are not to make the US better, it is to make him feel good and to hell with everyone else. Our country fought for independence because we didn’t like England’s type of government, so why would we accept it as wonderful now?

1. Because most of America does not share your beliefs/opinions. You suggest Karma should leave even though your the guy with the fantasy of overthrowing/rebelling against the democratically elected Government/President.
Karma and “his ilk” make up a Large part of the USA. Large enough at times (for example now) to be the political majority.

2. Because the England from than is a different England from now. It has undergone many reforms and has progressed over the years to adapted to political and economical changes as well as technological and scientific advances. One could do worse than take a look at how they do things, pick those they do better at than oneself and see how those could be Applied to the USA.

Especially apparent when i hear from people of your ilk, how incompetent the US government and Government as such is. Northern and western European Governments have become much more efficient over the last 3 decades. Often using modern and leading edge Management and Organization systems and skills that rival the best used by private Organizations. In average they have become no better or worse than the private sector when it comes to efficiency. The USA seems to be way behind in this development and could really do with taking a look at how its done elsewhere.

 
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It’s late and I am sleepy, but I feel some sort of reply is in order. If, as you say, most Americans don’t share my beliefs/opinions, why is gun control being fought with such fervor by so many? Why have pro-gun organizations suddenly had large injections of new members? Why is congress telling the president they won’t pass his suggestions? You dismiss the purpose of the 2nd Amendment and call the ability to take back our country from a dictator fantasy, but you lack an understanding of the purpose of that right. Without you having that understanding, you cannot intelligently debate the subject. Please read our Constitution so you can better understand the debate.

Yes, England has changed. It has become more socialistic in it’s governing of the people there. I don’t understand why you insist we entertain the thought of socialism when we have already denied it by forming our own country. It is obvious to me we didn’t want England’s type of government when we organized our country, then or now.

You are just trying to be insulting to me now. This is a common trait of liberals and those who cannot accept anothers views. Because I feel our present government is incompetent doesn’t mean I dislike my country. In your opinion have governments become more efficient. what they have become is more controlling and more powerful. Let me interpret your statement, “Often using modern and leading edge Management and Organization systems and skills that rival the best used by private Organizations.”. They have become more socialistic, giving you the perk,s you desire, while others pay for them. You are suggesting the most powerful country in the world look at other lesser countries suffering the same recession we are because we don’t know what we are doing. Think about how ignorant the statement you made is.

 
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Dear Lord, this has been a tough two or three years …you have taken my favorite actor Patrick Swayze, my favorite musician Michael Jackson, my favorite salesman Billy Mays, my favorite actress Elizabeth Taylor, my favorite singer Whitney Houston, and, now, my favorite announcer Dick Clark. I just wanted you to know that my favorite politician is Barack Obama.
Amen.—