SOCIALISM: the pros & cons page 3

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Originally posted by jhco50:

Beauval, improvement in Karma’s eyes is not improvement for everyone.

YOU are absolutely RIGHT on this.
What I want in the form of an America,, one that is much closer to the truths it SUPPOSEDLY stands for,, certainly WOULD NOT be an “improvement” for those who arrogantly & self-righteously usurp & deny the rights of their fellow Americans,, and/or those who greedily & selfishly take advantage of every aspect of any loophole, immoral & unethical opportunity available to them,, and/or those who abhor a “socialistic-LIKE” society because it would be strongly counter to their position of plutocracy.

He wants to make changes not everyone wants, just him and his ilk.

Yes…absolutely.
But, I think I well covered this above.

His improvements are not to make the US better, it is to make him feel good and to hell with everyone else.

This is merely YOUR opinion.
Of course, ya have the right to hold it.
AND, of course, just because ya do hold it…this DOES NOT mean it is the right one.
In fact, from the many opinions I’ve seen YOU express on this forum…I’m of the opinion that such “rightness” DOES NOT correlate w/ our Constitution. Ya know, the one that YOU so often & “loudly” tout that ya so deeply understand….to the point of showing just how obscenely skewed such perceptions can reach pathetic lows.

BTW,, while I see an America that is more in harmony w/ not only our Constitutional spirit of how a governing body should go about the business of manifesting the will of the ppl so that it is fair & just..I see one that is also as MORAL as is possible,,,considering that we are a very complex & diverse society—which obviously has a wide range of ethos which can AND DOES present areas of,,often great,,conflict.

I see Our country fought for independence because we didn’t like England’s type of government, so why would we accept it as wonderful now?

Johnny answered this below.

I, however, want to point out how YOUR holding on to various ideologies w/ a G.I. Joe Kung Fu grip is so blatantly & patently absurd…and has been shown to be just that by many SD posters many times over.

For a man that so regularly denigrates the “intellectual” abilities of others here on SD and claims to have a college degree,,,this position of yours that compares an English govt of a quarter of a CENTUARY ago to that of today demonstrates at least two concepts:

One: ya either have a serious deficieny for rational thinking.
Two: OR, ya’re so desparate to maintain a closed mind on particular issues that ya’ll resort to all manner,, even to the degree of guzzling the koolaid denial-of-the-obvious.

Now, on to YOUR next presentation of thinking that is horribly deficient of “logic”.

Originally posted by jhco50:

If, as you say, most Americans don’t share my beliefs/opinions, why is gun control being fought with such fervor by so many?

Apple & bowling balls.
This comparison of yours is just another example of “drinking the koolaid”.
Just because a lot of ppl,,evan a strong majority,,have concensus on ONE issue most certainly DOES NOT mean they will agree on all others.
Why in the world would YOU even try to think we might buy into that garbage?

Why have pro-gun organizations suddenly had large injections of new members?

Why have have ANIT-gun groups of ppl all across America had “injections” of protesting ppl or current “members” that now cease to be silent.?

Why is congress telling the president they won’t pass his suggestions?

Errrrrrr….could it be that all of this is POLITICAL?
A President would be a fool to not respond as Obama has.
Congress would be a fool to not listen to such a strong PAC as the NRA.
Don’t get ME wrong, I think Congress IS A FOOL for the degree to which they listen to some (most?) PAC’s.

Please, jake-o…don’t allow yourslef to be so easily fooled by your need to veiw the world through odd distortions of something YOU so strongly claim to know a lot about.

You dismiss the purpose of the 2nd Amendment….

Again…only YOUR opinion of what “they” are saying.

A challenge to particular interpretations of the 2nd MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT mean the “purpose” of the 2nd is being DISMISSED. It is becoming increasingly highly obvious why so many ppl find strong disagreement w/ YOUR POV on issues. And, the same is just as true when applied to why YOU obviously find disagreement w/ the views of others. That being: YOU are either very limited in yer ability to grasp what is being presented. OR, ya just don’t want to have an open mind and will not tolerate a new POV that might have an effect on yer current biggoted biases.

… and call the ability to take back our country from a dictator {a} fantasy, but you lack an understanding of the purpose of that right.

Again…merely YOUR opinion. While I don’t recall the exact word of “fantasy” being used, I have seen many opinons proffered that certainly do pretty much boil down to just that.

AND, all “they” are lacking an understanding of is nothing other than a lacking of AGREEMENT W/ YOU on the issue of interpretaion of the 2nd.

Without you having that understanding, you cannot intelligently debate the subject.

Boy-0-boy, is THAT ever the pot calling the “pot” (WHITE porcelain toilet) black. This PRESUMPTION that others don’t have this “understanding”,,thereby diminishing their intellect,,is nothing more than more of YOUR “koolaid binging”.

Please read our Constitution so you can better understand the debate.

What makes YOU think they haven’t? Oh yeah, that’s right…the arrogant driven need to ASSUME a lacking on the part of those who disagree w/ ya.
Yes, England has changed. It has become more socialistic in it’s governing of the people there. I don’t understand why you insist we entertain the thought of socialism when we have already denied it by forming our own country. It is obvious to me we didn’t want England’s type of government when we organized our country, then or now.

Good gawd, Maude.
There is so much wrong w/ that kind of “logic” that I almost don’t know where to begin.

I’ll start w/ YOUR: “…why you insist…” A strong SUGGESTION that there be given some thought into ways that might help address our social ills here in America certainly IS NOT the same as “insisting”. However, an arrogantly stubborn refusal to respond positively to such help, concern, etc. is just plain ignorantly obnoxious.

You are just trying to be insulting to me now.

WHAT?
Show me where he “insulted YOU personally.
He did noting more along that line than YOU did when YOU said: _”…Karam…and his ILK.."_
Johnny didn’t even bring YOU specifically into his admonishment of (ppl in general?) that they ""… could do worse than take a look at how they do things, pick those they do better at than oneself and see how those could be Applied to the USA.""

This is a common trait of liberals and those who cannot accept anothers views.

Wow…
All I can say about that is: jake-0, take a really, REALLY good look in the mirror…and stop that order for the keg-0-koolaid.

Because I feel our present government is incompetent doesn’t mean I dislike my country.

LOL. Yet, if I infer the same thing for ME…YOU tell me that I should love America or leave it
How arrogantly ignorant is THAT kind of hypocrisy?

In your opinion have governments become more efficient.

I guess what ya said there is: In your opinion, have govenment become more efficient?
A question.
A question that is waaaaay too vauge.
But one that, at least in the broadest sense, he likely would OBVIOUSLY answer w/ a (guarded?) YES.

what they have become is more controlling and more powerful.

SO,,,now YOU are a scholar on world governments…esp. those of modern nations?
Now, why haven’t I been able to see this?
Oh yeah, probably because YOU so zealously insist that NO ONE not America should so assess our govt.

Let me interpret your statement, “Often using modern and leading edge Management and Organization systems and skills that rival the best used by private Organizations.”. They have become more socialistic, giving you the perk,s you desire, while others pay for them.

Of course, YOU have the right to interpret and form an opinion at ya see fit.
BUT, as I said above…from that point on, ya really probably are on shaky ground.
I say this because, as I have also said above, YOU really fail to present much of anything in the way of an opinion that is of any merit.

You are suggesting…

Well…at least ya’ve toned down the “INSSISTING” crap…lol

…the most powerful countryin the world…

So. Like many other sophomoronic platitudes…we are now going to somehow make “MIGHT-is-right” sound official, moral, and rational?
Good luck w/ that.

…look at other lesser countries suffering the same recession we are because we don’t know what we are doing.

Well, even if Johnny is suggesting that, what can be the HARM in at least having a look.
Hell, we might even learn something.
I know I certainly have learned a lot over the years by comparing MY own situation to those who have similar problems and how they have dealt w/ them.
NOW, just how hard can such a thing be for YOU, jake-o, to grasp?
Hell, YOU are constatnly exposing us to how YOU are so vaunted by all of YOUR life experiences.
Interestng.
Does koolaid produce a hangover?

Think about how ignorant the statement you made is.

Oh shit…call an ambulance.
I’m convulsing in an alarming manner over THAT one.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Dear Lord, this has been a tough two or three years …you have taken my favorite actor Patrick Swayze, my favorite musician Michael Jackson, my favorite salesman Billy Mays, my favorite actress Elizabeth Taylor, my favorite singer Whitney Houston, and, now, my favorite announcer Dick Clark. I just wanted you to know that my favorite politician is Barack Obama.
Amen.—

Well, there we have it…
“koolaid” does induce a hangover.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Let’s face it, some have imagination and invent and others don’t and demand the imaginative one give the awards to them. This is exactly what is being proposed by the socialists on this forum. Take from those who earn and give to those who are lazy. It’s simple black and white. My ancestors and my family have fought and shed blood for the freedoms of our country. Now I have to listen to those too afraid to protect our freedoms offer them up to a dictator. Obama is not socialist? LOL, someone is living in a dream world. Our unemployment has risen again and our economy is contracting because this is what you of limited thinking wanted…another four years of nothing but poverty.

This is the mindset of the people on this forum.

Since I be votin’ for Obama, my taxes have gone up, my employer stopped offering health insurance and and they want to take my guns away. Damn you George Bush.

Agreed.

When was the last time a communist country ever invented or built something new that wasn’t a weapon?

When was the last time communism made a good CAR?

When was the last time communism made ANYTHING that was good?

They never can, never have, and never will.

 
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Yeah, I necroed my own thread….
But, while this editorialist doesn’t address a particular form of govt. DIRCETLY….
his description of a faction of the American political scene certainly does show just how fucking faaaaaarrrrrrrrrr to the right (away from socialism?) we are not only headed….BUT GOING at a pretty damn fast pace. Obvioiusly NOT the socialistic hell jhco is so worried about.

The piece isn’t long and so I am going to paste it up so ya don’t even have to “click of it”.

The power in the Republican Party today is all negative. This is especially true in Republican-dominated Kansas, where we are racing ahead to bring small government and libertarianism to the nation.

From abortion opponents to gun-rights activists, from income-tax eliminators to enemies of Obamacare, all we hear is “no, no, no, no.”

There is little talk these days of the Republican Party’s history as the private sector’s partner in building a strong middle class. We hear little lately of the party’s leadership in protecting national security.

Many Republican governors, including Sam Brownback, would curtail public-employee unions rather than let them compete in the political arena. Some of those governors and their allies would undermine public schools by reducing state aid and then telling teachers, by law, what they can and cannot teach.

These policies have gained traction primarily because single-issue groups have defeated good-government Republicans in primary elections. This sends a signal to incumbents – and to moderate challengers – that they dare not oppose the groups’ policies, no matter how outlandish they may be.

In the Kansas primaries last August, these groups joined together and swept most of their opponents away. After well-funded operatives finished whipping up sentiment against Obamacare, abortion, gun regulation and the income tax, only the strongest Democrats survived in the November general election.

The result was a government in Topeka that is trying to overturn everything from a woman’s right to choose to local government’s power to make its own decisions. No doubt the governor and his gurus are planning future legislative traps with phony issues to use in the next primary elections.

There is an alternative to this kind of trouble.

First we in the public have to call it what it is. This is not conservatism. This is an attempt to tear down what the Republican Party has stood for over a century and a half.

This is extremism.

Unfortunately, there is a sense today that nothing can be done to stop this extremism. Perhaps that is because the governor has moved so fast to have his way, trampling teachers, community arts activists, the disabled, the working poor, county government, Flint Hills ranchers and small hog farmers.

In the process, the governor and his backers – with their deep pockets, closed conferences and arbitrary executive actions – have alienated so many groups that his approval rating is down to a dangerously low 37 percent.

The end of the 2013 legislative session is in sight, and the concern of many Kansans is that much of the goofy, overly intrusive and economically unsound legislation being considered in the Capitol will, in fact, become law.

There has to be an alternative to this extremism.

With the lock that single-issue groups have on Republican primaries, and the trove of corporate contributions they benefit from, the only alternative lies with the people.

Neither the Senate nor the courts are any longer a bulwark against extremism in Topeka. The Senate has become a palace guard for the governor, and the courts are fighting for their independence.

We, the people in the middle – moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats and unaffiliated voters – are the only force that remains to turn our state back to a commonsense direction.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Here in Kansas, with the voters being heavily Republican, the real contest of public office is in the primaries….NOT the general election.

Too many Kansas voters are simply too “unaware” (actually POLITICALLY IGNORANT) to understand this. They simply believe that “as long as s/he is one of ours”, then just any Republican will do.

The voters show up in the general election merely to ensure some Democrat doesn’t somehow "beat their guy/gal.

The “people-in-the-middle” have really got to pull their heads outta their collective asses and take a really good HARD look at what is happeing around them….in ALL aspects of their lives.
They really, REALLY need to buy a book called: Politics for Dummies.
They had damn soon best put some “humph” in that “We the people…” shit or it is going to end up being: “We who lost our rights because we didn’t know they came with RESPONSIBILITIES.”

If ya really wanna see a good example of just how crazy the far-neo-right is becoming, have a look at what jhco just posted on the “gun issues” thread. Ya can almost see the gleam in his eye for that “revolution” he is always ranting on about….and the frothing at the mouth—about how ANYONE who has ANY KIND of issue w/ the current state of gun-abundance in America—as he chastises them for exercising their right to do so.

jhco is 3-for-3 on the editorialist’s list of agendas the neo-conservatives are so strongly (and successfully?) pushing for. Those being: abortion, Gay rights, & gun-control issues. Of course, those aren’t the ONLY ones…..just he ones that the politi-lazy will even give a passing glance.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m NOT saying that our state is filled w/ jhco’s_.
Sure, we have our fair share of zealots….and their knuckle-dragging second cousins.
But, for the most part, all of the Republicans in Kansas are basically “moderates”.
However, the far-right conservatives are very comfortable with calling them Rino’s…_Republican In Name Only.

They are able to do this because, for the most part, the moderates ARE NOT EVEN LISTENING.
They haven’t a clue.
The ONLY sources of information they tune into (largely because reliable, FACTUAL sources just aren’t something they opt for) are the ones that feed them the “drug-of-ignorance” they so crave in order for them to feel that those they vote for are doing “the right thing” for them.

 
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But, while this editorialist doesn’t address a particular form of govt. DIRCETLY….
his description of a faction of the American political scene certainly does show just how fucking faaaaaarrrrrrrrrr to the right (away from socialism?) we are not only headed….BUT GOING at a pretty damn fast pace. Obvioiusly NOT the socialistic hell jhco is so worried about.

Riddle me this: what does this have to do with the pros and cons of socialism?

The power in the Republican Party today is all negative.

All I needed to read to know that the piece is the musings of a liberal zealot.

 
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If YOU have to ask what extremist conservative politics have to do w/ socialism,,,
NO AMOUNT of “riddling” would bring light to mind for ya.

It would appear that it is YOU who is very out of touch w/ modern politics.
It has been well known since the loss in 2008 that there was a “centrist” issue that the GOP just wasn’t addressing.

And, by “well known”, I mean even by a huge majority of the GOP….
ya know, the MODERATES.

That man a “liberal zealot”?….ha ha ha ha ha ha h hah hah ahaha ha hah ah ah ah ahahh aha ha

All THAT does is show just how far to the right YOU are.
Perspective is paramount.

 
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I’m against socialism, period.

 
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Originally posted by AllStarDominatio:

I’m against socialism, period.

Well, I guess retirement isn’t for everyone.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by AllStarDominatio:

I’m against socialism, period.

Well, I guess retirement isn’t for everyone.

…Okay.

 
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Originally posted by AllStarDominatio:
Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by AllStarDominatio:

I’m against socialism, period.

Well, I guess retirement isn’t for everyone.

…Okay.

Maybe you should explain why you are so against it? After all like all political systems it has it’s advantages and disadvantages. The way I see it we should pick the parts of any political/economical system that are better then the rest and try to combine them.

 
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This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
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If YOU have to ask what extremist conservative politics have to do w/ socialism,,,
NO AMOUNT of “riddling” would bring light to mind for ya.

Seeing as far right politics and socialism (far left poliltics) are 180 degrees different, then yes, I fail to see what they have to do with each other. I would love for you to enlighten me oh wise one.

It would appear that it is YOU who is very out of touch w/ modern politics.
It has been well known since the loss in 2008 that there was a “centrist” issue that the GOP just wasn’t addressing.

The party nominated two moderates as candidates for the presidency the past two elections…

That man a “liberal zealot”?….ha ha ha ha ha ha h hah hah ahaha ha hah ah ah ah ahahh aha ha

The first sentence of his piece isn’t true. He knows it isn’t true (or he doesn’t know, in which case I question how the hell he got a job with kansas.com) yet chose to publish it anyway. Normally I would call him an ideologue, but I decided to spice up the vocabulary of SD and labeled him a zealot, which he is. I imagine he’s proud doing the work of the Democratic Party any way he can.

All THAT does is show just how far to the right YOU are.
Perspective is paramount.

You do realize you’re talking to virtually the only conservative on the forums who cuts the left any sort of slack, right?

 
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Ya know, issendork…
I stopped reading (seriously, truly) when ya said: “Seeing as far right politics and socialism (far left politics) are 180 degrees different, then yes, I fail to see what they have to do with each other.”

I had always wondered just what was YOUR “problem”.
Now, it’s pretty damn obvious.
If ya’re not actually trying to troll me here,
yer “natural talents” for it are just below the surface.

It is NOT UNCOMMON to demonstrate particular aspects of Z by comparing them to those of A….in an antithetical manner. THAT is why we fucking have the word: Antithetical….DUH, on wise-ass one.

AND, by the way….I guess YOU are much like jhco when it comes to the word socialism.
There are quite a few degrees of definitions.
The reality of “far-left socialism” is faaaaar less than the fact-of-life socialism we employ the world over. YES, even in the U.S.

BUT, the reality of the ever-growing strength of extremist “conservatism” is patently obvious to those who have the courage & mental skill sets to face the facts.

BTW, I didn’t know that YOU were such an expert on the political scene of Kansas.

 
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Ya know, issendork…

You’re so clever. I imagine you giggling for like 2 minutes when you thought of that.

If ya’re not actually trying to troll me here,
yer “natural talents” for it are just below the surface.

My natural sarcastic and often assholic nature can easily be confused as being a troll (as Vika thought when she accused me of trying to metaphorically rape her, or something). I’ve surrendered to the fact that my personality will come off as being trollish at times, but my intention is always to be serious, if not biting at times.

It is NOT UNCOMMON to demonstrate particular aspects of Z by comparing them to those of A….in an antithetical manner. THAT is why we fucking have the word: Antithetical….DUH, on wise-ass one.

I’m fairly certain that isn’t why we have the word.

I guess YOU are much like jhco when it comes to the word socialism.
There are quite a few degrees of definitions.
The reality of “far-left socialism” is faaaaar less than the fact-of-life socialism we employ the world over. YES, even in the U.S.

When did I say otherwise? Please don’t be like Vika who likes to argue I say things that I didn’t, and when I ask for a quote just lashes out and goes on a tangent. Provide me a quote please and thank you.

BUT, the reality of the ever-growing strength of extremist “conservatism” is patently obvious to those who have the courage & mental skill sets to face the facts.

That’s a popular opinion in the media, but it’s one I don’t necessarily agree with. The face of ‘extreme conservatives’ (I really don’t think by and large they are extreme, but that’s just me) is the Tea Party and I don’t think there is much question they are losing influence. I also saw extreme candidates (Murdoch, Aiken, O’Donnel) lose in 2010 and 2012, costing the GOP pretty winnable seats. I think this point of the fringe gaining more power in American parties could be an interesting discussion in another thread.

BTW, I didn’t know that YOU were such an expert on the political scene of Kansas.

You learn something new every day : )

 
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To give some insight to the very ppl who scream bloody hell about _socialism", this is an example of how low and far, FAR away from common sense they can go….(in their quest to tear down the “wall-of-separation”?).

As the article points out, the “war on Easter” is companion to the “war on Christianity”. The zealot Christians say this because many businesses—being aware that MANY of its customers aren’t Christian—now opt to have their employees great w/ the more inclusive “Happy holidays” rather than Merry Christmas.

Socialism, by its own name, promotes social behavior that is tolerant of diversity and inclusive of even limited-numbered minorities. After all, we are all in this together. I just wish more ppl would behave like it.

 
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I’m sorry I have to say this, but it seems that practically no one in this thread has any idea what socialism, communism and so on actually ARE.

So, I’m not from the US, but from Europe, Germany to be exact (so please excuse any grammatical errors). To be even more precise, I’m from the East Germany, and while I’m not old enough to have actually experienced the socialist dictatorship that was established there by the Soviet Union after WWII, I still think I have a bit of expertise about it.

So, let’s take a look into history. As you may know, the theory of socialism is based on the writings by Karl Marx, a philosopher from Germany who lived in the 19th century.
He established the theory that the earliest civilizations had no private property, so everyone had access to it, they shared. Later civilizations had a concept of private property, so certain people had the control over certain resources needed for production. Other people had not and only possessed their own working power, which they had to sell to the guys with the resources. Marx called the people who controlled the resources “bourgeoisie” and the people who only had their work force the working class/proletariat.
Marx said that there could only be a movement downwards in such a hierarchy, because the working class never acquires the private property they would need to get into the bourgeoisie, while more and more people from the bourgeoisie fell down into the working class due to the pressure of competition. (There was also a middle class, but I’ll ignore these here. Marx even said they would be assimilated by the other two classes over time.)
According to Marx, there would be a overthrow at some point – the bourgeoisie would lose it’s power and be controlled by the working class. The bourgeoisie would be dispossessed and the concept of private property abolished. Everyone there would be paid according to performance. He called it a “dictatorship of the proletariat”. He called this phase “Socialism”. Over time, all classes would disappear and there would be a society without any classes, without control of humans over other humans. Everyone would be paid according to his needs. He called this final phase “Communism”. (my explanation is a bit simplified, but it should be enough to make a few things clear)

In other words, socialism and communism are not identical, but one will follow the other. Also, socialism has nothing to do with social care – while social care may be present in a socialistic/communistic society, it is not necessary.
Fun Facts concerning this: First, as you may also know, Germany has the oldest national health insurance system of the world. It was established by Otto von Bismarck, Prime Minister at this time, who was actually an enemy of socialism (he illegalized the socialist parties). The socialists actually voted AGAINST it because they feared that the working class would be TOO PLEASED to start the revolution that Marx predicted. In other words, national health insurance was used against socialist theories.
Also, the Nazis called themselves “national socialists”. Of course they used it for propaganda, by associating the bourgeoisie with the Jews and generally being the stupid assholes they were, but it might show you that you can’t simply describe political alignment with “right (capitalism/fascism) versus left (liberalism/socialism)”.

What you call socialism is actually called “social democracy” here in Europe. Maybe not even that. Germany has a government governed by an alliance of liberals and conservatives and they are still for national social care. (It’s actually a common joke here that our conservative parties would be considered far left in the US.) National social care was actually never a serious issue here, at least not “if” it should exist, but rather “how much” it should do.