IF god was real why dosnt he fix the world we live in now page 62

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becous Adome the first man sined and brought sin in the world and ruined the world but if you believe in him he will give you eternal life in heven

 
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Originally posted by kcaleb4:

becous Adome the first man sined and brought sin in the world and ruined the world but if you believe in him he will give you eternal life in heven

Brainwashed, half-literate regurgitation at its finest.

 
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Originally posted by samuro2:

‘’He cast Adam and Eve out of the garden just because they ate some fruit. He doesn’t tolerate anything!’’

Actually, it was a simple rule. He was incredibly easy with Adam and Eve. “I created you with all my love and power, and all you have to do to remain in my love, all you have to do to be chosen for this, is to not eat from that tree over there.”

Why make a nonsensical rule like that?
Rules that have no justification always make people question the authority that put them into place. And rightly so. If that authority has something to hide it probably doesn’t deserve your trust, much less your love.
And look what it was he kept from us. Knowledge! This rule literally means: “You guys stay ignorant numpties and I’ll love you. Try to gain knowledge and I will punish you.” And what did he use to punish them? Death! And apparently all humans from then on to be born into sin, even though they had nothing to do with that original sin.
If that is what you understand as being loved… Damn! You have some fucked up convictions.

Compare that with Jesus. He had to starve himself for 40 days, and 40 nights. He was tested to the extent of any human can do, and was put on the standard highest to God. That right was, was the extreme test of God. And yet, Jesus was still able to follow through with what God wanted.

I thought Jesus was god.
Kinda strange… Testing yourself and almost failing…
Actually, there is that one stupid phrase: “My god, why have you forsaken me?” In the end, even Jesus doubted god. Or, you know, himself. Shit doesn’t make sense, if you ask me.

But God does tolerate a lot, actually. It’s really out own fault for blocking him out of our lives.

He tolerates everything, up to the point where you use the free will he supposedly gave you (I’d still argue that technically Satan helped us to develop that competence).

Actually, it’s not even a matter of free will. I never decided not to believe in god. You don’t decide stuff like that. You either do or you don’t. I don’t. I also didn’t block him out of my life. I literally surrounded myself with him during my coming of age phase that led to me realising that I don’t believe in him (and to my interpretation of him as one of the most screwed up characters in literary history). Apparently that’s enough for me to be punished.
I feel so goddamn loved right now.

 
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In the end, even Jesus doubted god. Or, you know, himself. Shit doesn’t make sense, if you ask me.

I lol’d.

Apparently that line can only be found in John, so it probably wasn’t intended to be compatible with the Trinity-logic.

I never decided not to believe in god. You don’t decide stuff like that. You either do or you don’t. I don’t.

It was a conscious decision for me. During my last week of high school I accidentally discovered that of my two female friends, one was a lesbian and the other was a wiccan. Neither told me directly because they were apparently afraid I would reject them because religion. In retrospect I would only have rejected the latter, but not because religion but because wicca is stupid.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

In the end, even Jesus doubted god. Or, you know, himself. Shit doesn’t make sense, if you ask me.

I lol’d.

Apparently that line can only be found in John, so it probably wasn’t intended to be compatible with the Trinity-logic.

It’s also in Mark.


I never decided not to believe in god. You don’t decide stuff like that. You either do or you don’t. I don’t.

It was a conscious decision for me. During my last week of high school I accidentally discovered that of my two female friends, one was a lesbian and the other was a wiccan. Neither told me directly because they were apparently afraid I would reject them because religion. In retrospect I would only have rejected the latter, but not because religion but because wicca is stupid.

I don’t know.
A religion that leaves a lot of freedom to the practitioner to define his own set of beliefs seems a lot less stupid to me than a more than anything dogmatic one that is force fed from generation to generation and is obsessed with death.

 
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A religion that leaves a lot of freedom to the practitioner to define his own set of beliefs seems a lot less stupid to me than a more than anything dogmatic one that is force fed from generation to generation and is obsessed with death.

Religions like that die out quickly. There’s a reason ideologies are dogmatic. You need dogmatism or there will be no uniform beliefs from person to person – the identity will lose its value as a group consciousness thing. It’s also needed because there’s always a push from different extremes: one to liberalize, the other to ossify. Liberalization waters it down; I’m not denying christianity could use some more liberalization, but you look at the Unitarians, they aren’t gaining any numbers, and part of that is because they’re fighting against a tradition that lays down certain rules you have to follow, proscribed behavior, etc. The Unitarians come over and say ‘naw, you don’t have to follow any of that stuff’. They get short-term gains but in the long run those converts either join up with the conservative branches (because they’re worried it’s not enough to earn entry into heaven), or they fall right out and become atheists (because reform christianity is basically two steps away from agnostic deism).

As for ‘obsessed with death’…they all are. The cycle of reincarnation in buddhism is a pretty good indicator that death is the only thing that matters. It’s crunch-time to see if they’ve done enough to escape the cycle or if they need to go back for another round. And to be fair, death is a pretty common human anxiety. Atheism and secular humanism have nothing at all to contribute about it. Or rather, they have nothing to assuage people with the sense that they will personally retain a sense of self after they die. I don’t know about you, but oblivion is not a reassuring thought. It’s not the same thing as nirvana nor does it make me want to ‘enjoy life to the fullest’ or some other spineless platitude, it makes me want to find a lifeboat to jump into.

 
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Well, if I had to describe Christianity with one word, ‘lifeboat’ certainly wouldn’t be among those I would use.
An uncertain lifeboat that requires you to waste a good portion of the opportunities you get in this one life you are guaranteed on fulfilling one of the most pessimistic outlooks on life and what happens after it I can imagine.
Sounds pretty stupid to me. I’d take Buddhism over that any day.

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:

Well, if I had to describe Christianity with one word, ‘lifeboat’ certainly wouldn’t be among those I would use.
An uncertain lifeboat that requires you to waste a good portion of the opportunities you get in this one life you are guaranteed on fulfilling one of the most pessimistic outlooks on life and what happens after it I can imagine.
Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Me too. Although, while I’m not Christian, I don’t see it that way at all. Negative experiences about x religion can only sway your logic so far before it starts sounding impaired.

I mean…you gotta agree that Christianity makes people happy. They can’t all be deluded schmos who would leave it if they only knew how horrible it secretly is, can they? I have a friend who’s a nun. My mom’s Christian, so are a lot of my friends from high school. They’re not lunatics, or violent criminal sorts, or bigoted (the nun’s actually pretty smart), and given how much religion is a part of them it seems problematic reasoning to suppose they’d be just as happy, if not moreso, if they were ‘cured’ of it.

I’d take Buddhism over that any day.

So would most ex-Christians, if Sam Harris is any indication. Apparently they’ve never run into any ex-buddhists, who would happily piss on their former religion for you, just as ex-Christians piss on their former religion.

Sorry if I sound overly smug but the logic always escapes me here. People who hate their old religion always make out like it’s the worst thing ever, not realizing that all religion runs pretty much the same gauntlet. Then they realize that and declare that all religion is the worst thing ever, not realizing that all ideologies run pretty much the same gauntlet, minus the continuity of self post-mortem, which is arguably the only worthwhile part exclusive to religion.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:Apparently they’ve never run into any ex-buddhists, who would happily piss on their former religion for you, just as ex-Christians piss on their former religion.

I’m no Buddhist expert, but aren’t they supposed to be kind of “go with the flow” Zen in their outlook and spirituality? I have a friend who’s Buddhist, and I can’t picture him hating on any religion, current or former, just because he doesn’t have it anymore.

The way I see religion, in terms of how froggy it’s members get, ranges something like this:

Buddhist -—> Mormon/Christian -—→ Scientology

With the latter being the most easily offended and liable to take combative measures.

(Edit: I forget to include extremist Muslims in graph. They’re an outlier to the right of Scientology; off the charts nuts.)

 
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Here’s one

and another

I usually hate youtube links but this one’s good.

People have a funny idea about buddhism because of orientalizing myths about what they believe and practice. Amusingly Islam used to be described alongside buddhism for ‘cool eastern religions’ because of stuff like sufism. What people assume to be representative of the majority of the religion is often a minority aspect that’s just been (over-)generalized to fit the whole. I knew a lady friend who thought hinduism was the shitz, based entirely on her reading stuff like the bhagavad-gita and blindly assuming that a religion that could produce that must be light-years better than our boring western alternatives. I still lol over that.

I don’t know your friend, but if he were to suddenly come down with a spiritual crisis and decide it’s all been a meaningless waste of time (I like the one testimonial link where the guy hates on memorizing sutras), I guarantee you he’ll be pissing a gushing fountain on his former belief system. Deprive anyone of a belief system they’ve faithfully followed for years, maybe even for their entire life, and they’ll be angry at themselves and the ideology they clung to.

On the other hand, it eventually wears off (or ought to, if people weren’t such brats about it), so perhaps ex-buddhists can get over it more quickly than the norm.

 
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Well i believe there is only one god that is the creator of this world.There are more than Zillions of people in this world.If god listens to everyone then the world will surely be destroyed.What happens is for good.For example when you are small and you dont know about fire.But after being getting burnt by it makes you realize that it is dangerous.Thus what happens is for your good.Thus these destructions let people know that destruction is not good and we should avoid it.

 
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Originally posted by rajesh1999:

Well i believe there is only one god that is the creator of this world.

Then what about mars? Was that made by Ares?

There are more than Zillions of people in this world.

Seven billion. Is that really such a difficult fact to know?

If god listens to everyone then the world will surely be destroyed.

Why? He’s omnipotent and omniscient, so he would already be listening by default, and him listening wouldn’t change anything.

What happens is for good.

The flood gates have been opened.

For example when you are small and you dont know about fire.

I will have you know I’m quite average sized.

But after being getting burnt by it makes you realize that it is dangerous.Thus what happens is for your good.

Because you can’t learn anything without direct experience.

Thus these destructions let people know that destruction is not good and we should avoid it.

No shit. Yet there are things, namely natural disasters, that cannot be avoided so easily. Following the logic of you previous analogy, it would be like if you were at a summer camp and in the middle of the night there was a lighting storm and it started a forest fire near your camp. Sure, you could be awake, or people wake up and try to stop the fire, but the only “good” thing you could learn from that experience would be to never go to summer camp again. Hell, forest fires are themselves a natural disaster.

 
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Wait, you had to burn yourself before you realised fire could be dangerous? The fact that burns anything it touches wasn’t enough for you?

Your first encounter with ball lightning should be interesting. You’ll see the devastation following in its wake, and you won’t realise its dangerous until you reach out to touch it with your bare flesh…

For that matter, try a tornado. How can it be dangerous? Just because it demolished three houses and half a road doesn’t make it dangerous. Not until you touch it and it hurls (hopefully) you or more likely bits of you through the air, will you consider it to be dangerous.

 
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Who said the world is broken?

 
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I’ve had a good think and realized that my primary hangups with the whole “god” concept are:

  • The installation of such entities as authorities over at least one aspect of life/nature/the universe
  • The character of such entities as alleged in “holy” scripture, esp. as regards their use of power, the expectation of worship, and the violent retribution against dissent to their authority.
  • The bare assertion of such entities’ existence being taken as fact, on pain of isolation, death, or worse, reinforced by many generations of cultural tradition.

I must admit that these stem from personal experience; I ill tolerate anyone who abuses their power and easily grow frustrated whenever I haven’t the power or resources to challenge them. My struggle in life is keeping that frustration to a minimum, not letting it devolve into bloodthirsty hatred of anyone I might perceive as agents of a tyrant.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:
Originally posted by NickWalker12:

Gotta love ‘The Problem Of Evil’ argument.

I’m a Hard Determinist, and as a result I have never heard an answer to this problem from theists, nor am I able to come up with one myself. As a result, for this reason (and others), I am an atheist.

I think you mean, you’ve never heard an answer that fits with your silly philosophy, which is a rather different thing.

If you remove the word silly, you’re reiterating exactly what I said. I think it’s clear that, when I said “I have never heard of an answer to this problem”, I am implying that I haven’t heard an answer that addresses the issues raised by Hard Determinism.

Regardless, please elaborate, why is Hard Determinism silly?

 
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Well I guess it depends on what god you’re talking about. I’ll assume the god of Christianity as well arguable with Islam and Judaism. But anyway, in the bible it often states how god is a loving higher power. 1 John 4:8 “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” New International Version (NIV). I will end this message with this quote- “You either have a god who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a god who simply watches it and says ‘when you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’ If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your god.” -Tracie Harris

 
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This question ties back into free will. If God made everything better, someone would wonder why he didn’t make it even better, etc etc etc, until it was a perfect utopia. That would only be possible if He took away free will. If He does that, then he takes away the option to disobey Him. That would also rid the world of love, since love has to be voluntary. This whole topic comes because people don’t think through the implications of their criticisms of God.

 
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Originally posted by MyTie:

This question ties back into free will. If God made everything better, someone would wonder why he didn’t make it even better, etc etc etc, until it was a perfect utopia. That would only be possible if He took away free will. If He does that, then he takes away the option to disobey Him. That would also rid the world of love, since love has to be voluntary. This whole topic comes because people don’t think through the implications of their criticisms of God.

But he effectively does take away free will. If you disobey him you are punished.
So why is an utopia with everyone living in blissful ignorance so out of the question? I mean, what purpose does free will have if all it really is good for is to serve as a tool so that big sky daddy can punish some fools? Make a choice between love and not love instead of covering the whole spectrum between love and hate. Juts end the scales at indifference.

And how doe things like natural disasters and so one come into play here? How does starving to death relate to your free will? Should those people just decide not to starve to death, or what?

 
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Consequences to your actions, which He says He will accept on your behalf if you ask Him to, is not “punishment”, and calling it that is biased. Further, even if it were punishment, that doesn’t mean you don’t have free will. Do you understand what free will is?

Finally, I’d rather have free will than be live in blissful ignorance. Would you rather be a robot than live with the burden of consequences for your actions? Come on man.

 
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It is perfectly possible for a robot to have free will, you know. Very poor analogy.

All free will is good for as EPR says, is that God has a target to meet. X% of humans to be sent to hell. Free will allows him to select a percentage to go to hell. He knows which % in advance, because he knows which choice they will make.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:It is perfectly possible for a robot to have free will, you know.

Could you qualify this with something please.

 
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Ok, it is perfectly possible for a robot to have a mind of its own, and to make decisions entirely of it’s own. To make choices that were not explicitly programmed into it.

A good example would be the otherwise driverless robot cars currently on US roads. It would not be possible to program into them what to do in every possible circumstance they might meet. So they must rely on their own free will and judgement should a strange situation come up, as to what to do.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Ok, it is perfectly possible for a robot to have a mind of its own, and to make decisions entirely of it’s own. To make choices that were not explicitly programmed into it.

A good example would be the otherwise driverless robot cars currently on US roads. It would not be possible to program into them what to do in every possible circumstance they might meet. So they must rely on their own free will and judgement should a strange situation come up, as to what to do.

The driverless robot cars follow specifically programmed directions, and instructions for each scenario. You can look all the way down to the 1s and 0s, and every bit of logic is programmed. Nothing is inspired. Nothing is imagined. There is no “mind”, just a set of mathematical parameters. Try again.

 
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The driverless robot cars follow specifically programmed directions, and instructions for each scenario. You can look all the way down to the 1s and 0s, and every bit of logic is programmed. Nothing is inspired. Nothing is imagined. There is no “mind”, just a set of mathematical parameters. Try again.

Except she just said that’s not how it should be done, unless I misread.