Transgenders - Public Bathrooms page 3

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Correction, your diseased brain.

Correction: Unless you are using a different definition for disease than everyone else on the planet, it is not a diseased brain. But then with the rest of your comments above, no medical professional knows what they are talking about, and only Zamininc does.

What if it’s just a collection of experiences in their life that made them identify as the opposite gender?

If you mean a fundamental issue with the way their brain processes information at the neuron level, then sure. Regardless of what their actual experiences are, they will always process information the same way.

So every experience not congruent with the way they process information would cause the same problem. The only solution would be to give them life experiences congruent with how their brain works – in other words, give them the correct body.

Surely that would be treatable without mutilation/HRT.

not really. In the same way as how you cannot replace a defective heart without mutilating the old one, so you cannot fix a defective body without mutilating some of the tissues already in place.

A person with insanity can be classified as sane if you ignore the insanity.

I will require proof that every psychiatrist and psychologist whose professional reputation depends on them making judgements as accurately and as without bias as possible, will deliberately lie and/or ignore evidence of insanity in order to fulfill some unspecified personal agenda.

Alternatively I will require proof that no professional psychologist or psychiatrist is qualified or capable of assessing an individual’s mental state, even over a course of years or decades.

Solid proof of either will do, since it is what you are claiming. I’ll wait.

The way they determine if someone is sane enough for an operation doesn’t include the desire for the actual operation as being disqualifying.

Why would it? By the same logic, someone with a dodgy heart expressing a desire to have a replacement, transplant heart fitted is demonstrating that they are clinically insane and incapable of making an adult decision. their genetics say the heart is faulty and will fail. It is only natural for them to live with it and not try to change it. Anything else makes them an abnormal freak.

your own logic.

Once a patient has any mental illness of any type, they are automatically to be treated like children, since they have lost the adult ability to make rational decisions?

Regarding permanent changes that stem from the mental illness, yes.

So someone with depression,l wishing to make permanent changes to their life is a freak of nature who needs to be locked up for their own good, as there isn’t a health professional on the planet capable of declaring them sane. Got it.

The way it’s done isn’t always the way it should be.

If we use ‘the way it should be’ as meaning As Zam dictates, rather than those know-nothing fuckwits in the medical profession. Gotcha.

As I’ve said before, why shouldn’t the desire to have such an operation done be disqualifying for it in the first place?

Why should it?

They feel wrong with their body. It doesn’t represent who they are, or what they are. They don’t feel right, so the nature of the wrongness is explored and discussed at length. Possible solutions come up including the real-life test, where they have to live as their desired lifestyle for 1-3 years before any further assessing can take place. If there is a definite, measurable improvement in their mental health and outlook on life over those years, then that choice is right for them, and options to improve the completeness of their transition can be discussed.

Why do you feel that having a mental illness in the first place, automatically disqualifies you from any possibility of being sane? That is the core of your argument, and the part I truly do not understand.

It’s not normal and definitely hazardous to want to cut off a limb.

You keep coming back to ‘not normal’ as if that explains everything.

Could you tell me what ‘normal’ is, please? Give a full, encompassing definition for it. then anything that falls outside that range can be classified as ‘not normal’.

I can think of one person who cut his own leg off, and for him it was absolutely the right thing to do. He’d been suffering incurable chronic pain for years, and nothing, not even botox was helping it. So he finally got rid of it. Taking the leg off got rid of the circuitry problem in his leg nerves. Whatever nerves were cross-wired went with it, and his pain disappeared. He was able to return to a more ‘normal’ life (whatever that means) once it was gone.

The leg was the disability. Removing the leg removed the disability. It removed the pain which gave him his mind back.

how is that wrong?

Ultimately if the degree of body dymorphia (not just transgender, there are a whole slew of other body dymorphia problems) is too great to treat via a therapeutic approach

I’m sure in the future there will be some sort of therapeutic approach to the situation.

Considering of the two of us, I can safely say I know far more than you do about how the mind works (given this train-wreck of a discussion between us), I am not at all sure. I personally cannot see it. The only way you could ‘cure’ it without changing the body, would be to open the skull up, rip out everything from the brainstem and up, and insert a brand new brain in there.

The old person is dead and gone, along with everything they thought and knew. Everything is too interconnected at a fundamental wiring level in the brain to be able to make that kind of change and have it stick. The memories, feelings, desires, even the fiunamental neurology of the cells themselves are all part of the problem. Every cell in the brain is part of the ‘disease’ as you call it (and you’re the only one who does).

So you would literally have to throw the brain out and start afresh.

And needless to say we shouldn’t outright abandon other possible forms of treatment. I haven’t stumbled upon a study that gave prospective transexuals their own sexual hormone (testosterone for men estrogen for women) and seeing how that effected their mental state.

You won’t, for mind-bogglingly obvious reasons – they’ve already lived years before the start of medication, under treatment with their birth hormones flowing through their circulatory systems. We’ve already seen what they’re like under their original hormone levels. We don’t need to recreate it againb as we already have that data.

From my experience from talking with people who have taken AAS (or steroids) they felt more “manly” and “masculine”. Could be worth a shot.

The people you have experience with are not transexual. I severely doubt they are even body dymorphic. As such their brains are wired to want to feel more manly. What you would need to do is inject a large number of women, give them high doses of AAS, and record at what levels they start feeling more manly and really masculine.

Tip for the wise: Excepting transgender individuals in your study group, you won’t get the response you’re craving, as the way the brain processes data kinda ah, plays a part in how they think, and the cravings they have.

That’s another problem in itself. Creates a potential problem in society. What if a guy has sex with a transexual, but they don’t know it was really a guy? That would be rape in my book.

And you’ll be laughed out of court. you’re using a different definition of sexual assault to everyone else on the planet.

Two consenting adults having sex is not a forced sexual encounter by the definition anyone else uses.

 
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EDIT: Heh, two person text wall go!

100% Given no other information about a person and you just have their karyotype infront of you, what would you do to determine their gender?

Granted. But what does that information mean? I’m not disputing the genetic basis of sexual differentiation. But, of what value is this information? What does it entail, suggest, demand, of the individual and the society around them?

Nuture plays no role in gender, is what I’m saying.
bq. Well in terms of chromosomes, yes. They all lack a Y chromosome so they are alike in that regard.

Not disagreeing with you in this regard. But, I suppose to pare things down. “What is the purpose/value of sexual differentiation to a culture?”

You act as if applying preventive measures is assuming guilt. Would you go into a big city wearing a sign that said “Rob me! I have a thousand dollars in my pocket!”?

No. But nor would I consider wearing a sign that says “Don’t Rob me! I don’t have a thousand dollars in my pocket!” the best plan either. I’d say the level of barrier we’re providing is pretty low. It’s simple social taboo that is only going to apply to anyone already out not to upset anyone.

That’s another problem, what if a guy starts dating a transexual, not knowing that it’s a guy, marries him, and then realizes he can’t have kids? You can’t tell me no one would lie about their reassignment.

Well that would be a shitty dishonest thing to do (assuming someone mentioned the subject at some point). … But so what? It would be a rare enough occurrence, and there are alternatives available, and it is completely redundant to heterosexual couples with infertility issues which is pretty common. I just can’t get behind this as having that much social impact.

What context is this? Personally I believe there needs to be more research into alternative treatments for people who don’t identify with their gender. It is certainly not normal and those that regret doing gender reassignment are SOL.

Not quite sure how to answer your context question, I was speaking generally. Yes like any major elective surgery it’s not exactly easily reversible, which I would suggest warrants caution certainly. As for alternative treatments, you mean like gender identification treatments? I do believe that is pursued, but it does sound a little foreign to me. I agree that it is not normal insofar as it is not common, but, why is it important to identify with ones gender?

Further, if we are accepting a chromosomal basis of gender identity, as you have suggested. Then there is no transexuality here at all.

But they’re actually girls.

But, strictly chromosomal, there is no relationship between western cultural trops of female beauty, attire and behavior, and actual women. I don’t see there being any bearing between say, wearing a dress, expanding your cup size and buying new shoes and a chromosomal definition of woman hood. Given such a bearing a woman undergoing this is not affirming any gender role whatsoever, as much as a man would not be transgressing one.

The very act of wanting to defy your gender, in my opinion, makes you mentally incompetent to make said decision.

Because why? What is problematic, or mentally problematic, about a desire to defy your gender?

It’s not normal and definitely hazardous to want to cut off a limb. Same with wanting to be the other gender.

Not to be shitty, honestly. But what is hazardous about having a limb cut off? Or change gender? Continuing the line of thinking, all cosmetic surgery would have to be discounted along your grounds.

From my experience from talking with people who have taken AAS (or steroids) they felt more “manly” and “masculine”. Could be worth a shot.

What is inherently preferable to this approach instead of the inverse? The fellow taking estrogen to feel more “womanly” and “feminine”?

What if a guy has sex with a transexual, but they don’t know it was really a guy? That would be rape in my book.

You know what they say about assuming. But if in explicitly false pretenses I have to agree with you there.

 
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Originally posted by Ungeziefer:

Not to be shitty, honestly. But what is hazardous about having a limb cut off?

The only real danger is in not doing it properly. Cut off your arm, and you’ll need to clamp the brachial artery, subclavian artery, and brachiocephalic vein immediately, or all the blood that’s inside you? That’ll be all over the floor within a minute.

The leg’s almost as bad. Clamp the popliteal artery & vein, and the two sets of tibial artery and vein pairings, or you’ll have similar problems with an ocean of red liquid under you, and none in you.

It is a life-changing event, and you have to wonder just how bad the situation has gotten that cutting off the limb actually improves peace of mind. I’ve had botox surgery done myself, for pain management reasons, so I am aware how effective it is, and when it is not effective & why. So this isn’t just me talking from exposure to patients who’ve undergone extreme pain management.

I can see how horrific it is to live with continual pain that never goes away, and if the last ditch management techniques repeatedly fail, then removal is the next option on the table.

Or change gender?

Pain again. Substituting mental anguish for physical pain. Still pain, just a different form of it. Try every management technique we can, but if every line of management fails, and repeatedly fails, then again, removal is on the table.


Yes like any major elective surgery it’s not exactly easily reversible, which I would suggest warrants caution certainly.

Currently, it is not reversible at all. Once the original primary sex organs are gone, they’re gone. We cannot currently recreate them.

I hope (perhaps too optimisitcally) that when we can, and the new set that are fitted, work as completely as the old did, that such issues are behind us. When the MtF is able to carry a baby to term and give birth, or the FtM is able to use his penis to impregnate a woman, that aspect of the caution is behind us.

The other caution of course, is making sure it is the right procedure for the individual. Surgery is not risk-free, is costly, and the time of our surgeons is a precious resource. Nobody should be put through any surgical procedure unless there is a medical consensus that it is the right thing for that individual.

 
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Shit, I’m going to need two posts for this one.

If you mean a fundamental issue with the way their brain processes information at the neuron level, then sure. Regardless of what their actual experiences are, they will always process information the same way. So every experience not congruent with the way they process information would cause the same problem. The only solution would be to give them life experiences congruent with how their brain works – in other words, give them the correct body.

There’s always going to be at least one sequence of events in a person’s life out of an infinite possibility that will cause them to want to be the other gender regardless of how they process information. Our goal should be to reverse the effect of these events in a GID patient’s life instead of letting them succumb to them.

not really. In the same way as how you cannot replace a defective heart without mutilating the old one, so you cannot fix a defective body without mutilating some of the tissues already in place.

But we’re not talking about a physical issue here. We’re talking about a mental issue. What makes more sense? To say that the coding is wrong or that the machine it’s coded for is wrong?

bq.I will require proof that every psychiatrist and psychologist whose professional reputation depends on them making judgements as accurately and as without bias as possible, will deliberately lie and/or ignore evidence of insanity in order to fulfill some unspecified personal agenda.
Alternatively I will require proof that no professional psychologist or psychiatrist is qualified or capable of assessing an individual’s mental state, even over a course of years or decades.
Solid proof of either will do, since it is what you are claiming. I’ll wait.

Actually that wasn’t my argument in what I said at all.

I’m saying that in the mental health screenings for transexuals that the very desire to want to be the opposite gender makes one incompetent enough to make the decision to BECOME the opposite gender.

In other words.

A person with insanity can be classified as sane if you ignore the insanity.

or

A person with GID can be classified as mentally competent if you ignore the GID.

The argument is that GID makes a person incompetent enough to make decisions regarding their own gender as the desire purely stems from the disorder itself.

Why would it? By the same logic, someone with a dodgy heart expressing a desire to have a replacement

Not the same. That’s a physical problem. GID is a mental problem. There is no alternative treatment to surgery. The person in question will die without it. A person with GID, however, have many other alternative options and will not die even if untreated.

your own logic.

You’re saying my logic is that genes and what they code for shouldn’t be messed with. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying they shouldn’t be messed with because the person has a mental anomaly.

So someone with depression,l wishing to make permanent changes to their life is a freak of nature who needs to be locked up for their own good, as there isn’t a health professional on the planet capable of declaring them sane. Got it.

Do those permanent changes involve HRT/mutilation?

If we use ‘the way it should be’ as meaning As Zam dictates, rather than those know-nothing fuckwits in the medical profession. Gotcha.

I think you have too much faith in people who learn from people who have learned from people who learned from people…. who made up shit on the spot and saw if it worked or not.

“Hey! Let’s put leeches on you and see if it cures the black death” “Hey! Let’s cut your arm off and see if it’s the best option to treat your body dysphoria”

Why do you feel that having a mental illness in the first place, automatically disqualifies you from any possibility of being sane? That is the core of your argument, and the part I truly do not understand.

It doesn’t prevent them from being sane. It prevents them from being able to make educated decisions based on how the mental illness makes them feel about the subject. They shouldn’t be able to do things that, if they didn’t have their (likely treatable) mental illness they wouldn’t want done to their body.

Could you tell me what ‘normal’ is, please? Give a full, encompassing definition for it. then anything that falls outside that range can be classified as ‘not normal’.

Define what context you want it in.

I can think of one person who cut his own leg off, and for him it was absolutely the right thing to do. He’d been suffering incurable chronic pain for years, and nothing, not even botox was helping it. So he finally got rid of it. Taking the leg off got rid of the circuitry problem in his leg nerves. Whatever nerves were cross-wired went with it, and his pain disappeared. He was able to return to a more ‘normal’ life (whatever that means) once it was gone.

Again, a physical problem.

Considering of the two of us, I can safely say I know far more than you do about how the mind works (given this train-wreck of a discussion between us), I am not at all sure. I personally cannot see it. The only way you could ‘cure’ it without changing the body, would be to open the skull up, rip out everything from the brainstem and up, and insert a brand new brain in there.

That’s a pretty bold statement to say that there will be no other treatment for it ever. If it comes from a chain of events, then forced “forgetfullness” of an event in the chain might help treat it. At this point I’m just talking out of my ass. But I’m fairly certain there’s another way to treat it. Especially since some people who have gone through with the surgery regretted it

You won’t, for mind-bogglingly obvious reasons – they’ve already lived years before the start of medication, under treatment with their birth hormones flowing through their circulatory systems. We’ve already seen what they’re like under their original hormone levels. We don’t need to recreate it againb as we already have that data.

Original hormonal levels could be low. Or their brains could have developed in a way that they need more of the hormone to have an effect on it.

And you’ll be laughed out of court. you’re using a different definition of sexual assault to everyone else on the planet.
Two consenting adults having sex is not a forced sexual encounter by the definition anyone else uses.

It’s rape when the two are drunk, even if it is consentual.
It’s rape when an 18 year old has sex with a 17.9999 year old (in some states) even if it’s consentual
Why shouldn’t it be rape when a person lies about their gender?

 
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Granted. But what does that information mean? I’m not disputing the genetic basis of sexual differentiation. But, of what value is this information? What does it entail, suggest, demand, of the individual and the society around them?

It would mean they are either a male or a female?

Not disagreeing with you in this regard. But, I suppose to pare things down. “What is the purpose/value of sexual differentiation to a culture?”

Rephrase that.

No. But nor would I consider wearing a sign that says “Don’t Rob me! I don’t have a thousand dollars in my pocket!” the best plan either. I’d say the level of barrier we’re providing is pretty low. It’s simple social taboo that is only going to apply to anyone already out not to upset anyone.

You wouldn’t wear a sign that said that but you’d definitely wear one of your cheapest pairs of clothes.

Well that would be a shitty dishonest thing to do (assuming someone mentioned the subject at some point). … But so what? It would be a rare enough occurrence, and there are alternatives available, and it is completely redundant to heterosexual couples with infertility issues which is pretty common. I just can’t get behind this as having that much social impact.

Too much to risk in my opinion.

but, why is it important to identify with ones gender?

Because it’s a pretty big mental anomaly not to.

Further, if we are accepting a chromosomal basis of gender identity, as you have suggested. Then there is no transexuality here at all.

Yes but there is mutilation.

But, strictly chromosomal, there is no relationship between western cultural trops of female beauty, attire and behavior, and actual women. I don’t see there being any bearing between say, wearing a dress, expanding your cup size and buying new shoes and a chromosomal definition of woman hood. Given such a bearing a woman undergoing this is not affirming any gender role whatsoever, as much as a man would not be transgressing one.

What you said is basically crossdressing, not genital mutilation/completely fucking up your endocrine system.

Because why? What is problematic, or mentally problematic, about a desire to defy your gender?

Because it’s a huge huge huge mental anomaly and is only really a thing in today’s society. I’d imagine transexuality can be cured in a similar way to deprogramming a person from a cult.

Not to be shitty, honestly. But what is hazardous about having a limb cut off? Or change gender? Continuing the line of thinking, all cosmetic surgery would have to be discounted along your grounds.

Lack of a limb – You can’t use it anymore. This is obvious.
Genital mutilation – You can’t reproduce
Cosmetic surgery – No harm done.

What is inherently preferable to this approach instead of the inverse? The fellow taking estrogen to feel more “womanly” and “feminine”?

What’s preferable to treating an infection over just cutting the hand off?

 
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Originally posted by FullMeasureZam:

Why shouldn’t it be rape when a person lies about their gender?

I won’t bother dealing with the rest of your crap, I’ve already addressed it enough times, and you put the nail in the coffin, when you stated that doctors don’t know what they’re talking about, they are just taught that this is how things have to be done. Dismissing both the medical profession and the process of scientific investigation as complete and utter garbage in other words.

I’ll deal with this piece of lunacy however.

You go out on the town and you meet a nice person of whatever gender takes your fancy. You get to know them and like them. You go back to their place, and together engage in lovemaking which lasts quite a while.

In the morning, you find out this person is actually married, and they lied about this detail of their lives.

You now retcon reality, and have proof positive that they dragged you into bed against your will, and forced themselves onto you physically, over and over. You had no way to stop this and hated every minute of it. This retcon stands because they lied about some aspect of their situation, and it automatically negates the full consent you earlier gave.

that about sums up your lunacy. Next will come a post from you, trying to explain how some secrets don’t count and others do, based solely on the personal bigotry of one of the participants, and their mental decision to retcon reality.

 
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Rephrase that.

I liked, “What is the purpose/value of sexual differentiation to a culture?” but um. “To what end should society maintain a division between the sexes? Why?”

Because it’s a pretty big mental anomaly not to. (identify with ones gender)

And what is in society or the individual interests to suggest treatment?

Yes but there is mutilation.

How are we defining mutilation? Any physical change that others frown upon? Is it not their body to style and change as they see fit? Are we forcing aesthetics down upon people and robbing them of individual possession of their own form?

What you said is basically crossdressing, not genital mutilation/completely fucking up your endocrine system.

I suppose for those examples yes. But what would be wrong about hormonal changes if it is strictly the chromosomal divide we’re interested in maintaining?

Lack of a limb – You can’t use it anymore. This is obvious.
Genital mutilation – You can’t reproduce
Cosmetic surgery – No harm done.

And if the individual in question has no interest in, use of said limb, or reproducing? A fair number of people get vasectomies whose specific purpose is to prevent reproduction.

What’s preferable to treating an infection over just cutting the hand off?

Don’t really follow your analogy here. So, I’ll as for a more literal answer. What is inherently preferable to this approach instead of the inverse? The fellow taking estrogen to feel more “womanly” and “feminine”?

 
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I won’t bother dealing with the rest of your crap, I’ve already addressed it enough times

So basically you’re saying I won. Great.

Dismissing both the medical profession and the process of scientific investigation as complete and utter garbage in other words.

Dismissing one opinion out of thousands as not being properly researched isn’t that bad. The fact of the matter is that it’s not set in stone, the opinion of a few professionals doesn’t make it correct. Not to mention some may have ulterior motives for wanting to do so (support political organization that is generally pro-transexuality etc etc).

You go out on the town and you meet a nice person of whatever gender takes your fancy. You get to know them and like them. You go back to their place, and together engage in lovemaking which lasts quite a while.

Regarding that last bit of information I’m going to assume you had a girlboner when writing that

In the morning, you find out this person is actually married, and they lied about this detail of their lives. You now retcon reality, and have proof positive that they dragged you into bed against your will, and forced themselves onto you physically, over and over. You had no way to stop this and hated every minute of it. This retcon stands because they lied about some aspect of their situation, and it automatically negates the full consent you earlier gave.

wat

It’s rape if a 16 year old girl has sex with a 30 year old man, even if she enjoyed and agreed to it.
It’s rape if a girl is drunk when it’s happening despite if she enjoyed it and agreed to it
Fuck, it’s rape if the girl regrets it five minutes later

It doesn’t matter if someone is married or not. There’s no such thing as “nonmarriedsexuality”. At this point you should be able to discern why a straight male would not want to have sex with a guy.

based solely on the personal bigotry of one of the participants

Oy vey! Buzzword time! Intolerance or “bigotry” isn’t a bad thing.

I liked, “What is the purpose/value of sexual differentiation to a culture?” but um. “To what end should society maintain a division between the sexes? Why?”

In specifically gender based areas.

Bathrooms are one as how one uses the facility directly correlates to what parts they have/should have.

And what is in society or the individual interests to suggest treatment?

Society- The discussion about a straight man unknowning having sex with another man
Individual- Able to reproduce and still feeling comfortable in their own body.

How are we defining mutilation? Any physical change that others frown upon? Is it not their body to style and change as they see fit? Are we forcing aesthetics down upon people and robbing them of individual possession of their own form?

Any physical change that permanently scars/damages a part of the body as well as impacting a life process. In this case it’s reproduction.

I suppose for those examples yes. But what would be wrong about hormonal changes if it is strictly the chromosomal divide we’re interested in maintaining?

Same argument can be made for anabolic steroids for bodybuilders. Why not allow them to take an artifical hormone because they feel like they want it?

And if the individual in question has no interest in, use of said limb, or reproducing? A fair number of people get vasectomies whose specific purpose is to prevent reproduction.

Desires aren’t constant. Vasectomies can be reversed.

Don’t really follow your analogy here. So, I’ll as for a more literal answer. What is inherently preferable to this approach instead of the inverse? The fellow taking estrogen to feel more “womanly” and “feminine”?

I would prefer to combat the cause of the illness rather than to appease the illness itself.

 
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Originally posted by FullMeasureZam:

So basically you’re saying I won. Great.

That’s fine. If you wish to declare yourself a winner, go with it. You haven’t got an ‘argument’ worth debating.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by FullMeasureZam:

So basically you’re saying I won. Great.

That’s fine. If you wish to declare yourself a winner, go with it. You haven’t got an ‘argument’ worth debating.

Listen Zam, I put this topic in the “Serious Discussion” forum for a reason. There is no winner, there is no loser, there are no good posts, there are no bad posts. If you wish to argue with others to determine whether you actually won the argument or not, that’s just plain pathetic. If you can’t stop doing this, I’m going to have to ask you to please get off of my thread.

 
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The Men/Women bathrooms are separated because men’s rooms have urinals.

It is a separation based on how you pee.

So if you stand to pee, you use the male restroom.

Its based on a physical difference, not a mental one.

 
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Originally posted by gluCROWse:

The Men/Women bathrooms are separated because men’s rooms have urinals.

It is a separation based on how you pee.

So if you stand to pee, you use the male restroom.

Its based on a physical difference, not a mental one.

Both bathroom have the standardized toilet. I think that whichever bathroom the person feels comfortable using, they should have the right to use it.

 
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Originally posted by Kellathor:
Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by FullMeasureZam:

So basically you’re saying I won. Great.

That’s fine. If you wish to declare yourself a winner, go with it. You haven’t got an ‘argument’ worth debating.

Listen Zam, I put this topic in the “Serious Discussion” forum for a reason. There is no winner, there is no loser, there are no good posts, there are no bad posts. If you wish to argue with others to determine whether you actually won the argument or not, that’s just plain pathetic. If you can’t stop doing this, I’m going to have to ask you to please get off of my thread.

What are you gonna do? Call the cops?

Originally posted by Kellathor:
Originally posted by gluCROWse:

The Men/Women bathrooms are separated because men’s rooms have urinals.

It is a separation based on how you pee.

So if you stand to pee, you use the male restroom.

Its based on a physical difference, not a mental one.

Both bathroom have the standardized toilet. I think that whichever bathroom the person feels comfortable using, they should have the right to use it.

Yes but only one has urinals specifically designed for males.

If there’s no difference between the standardized toilets then it really doesn’t matter. At that point they’re just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

 
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Originally posted by gluCROWse:

The Men/Women bathrooms are separated because men’s rooms have urinals.

It is a separation based on how you pee.

So if you stand to pee, you use the male restroom.

Its based on a physical difference, not a mental one.

Oh, YOU are to public restroom usage (in particular: peeing) what jhco is to the gun issue. Ya’re offering up a whoooole lot of bogus bullshit.

An example: “The Men/Women bathrooms are separated because men’s rooms have urinals.”
Some facts regarding this “piss-poor” logic.
Men don’t shit in urinals.
So there is usually toilets in their restrooms.

Many, MANY times….while I am using an urinal, a man will opt for the toilet. Probably because the feels much more comfortable doing so because of “privacy issues”. The problem here is that so very often they won’t raise the seat (usually no “lids” in public restrooms). The “wet-seat” issue isn’t only a factor of aim. It also results from splash. Any man w/ a modicum of awareness & has peed into a toilet bowl standing & w/ bare legs can feel the resulting splash.

Any time I need to shit, I ALWAYS have a good look at the seat to see if it has “ignorant, insensitive dew” on it & wipe it off if it does. Urban myth says that urine is sterile. But it isn’t. However, unless one has a “gash” on their legs & ass, they probably won’t contract any “general” disease. If available, one can use those silly paper “coasters”. Or, as I’ve seen left behind….a lot of toilet paper nicely laid on the seat.

This link gives a lot of info about the split-seat. Most of it is just silly crap about how it came into existence because of men’s usage of a toilet. MY “theory” is that it is so women won’t be putting their “special area” where a previous woman has. Their “plumbing” itself" can have a large range of diseases. To some degree, a split-seat is helpful to men because it means their “junk” also needn’t “touch” either.

At home, I sit to piss. It saves on a lot of frequent cleaning of the rim (not talkin’ seat here).
Don’t believe me about the “splash-effect”?
Piss standing a lot w/ the seat up. Look for a lot of yellow on the rim.
It’s there.

In researching for some info regarding toilet seat, I came across these two contributions to a question posed about urinals & toilets regarding men’s use of them:
“Guys should sit the hell down and stop spraying all over the bathroom. We’ve moved forward since men pee’d in the streets.”
.
“Max, if god had wanted men to sit down he wouldn’t have given us garden hoses.”
[offered as an example of Neanderthal-thinking from another source.]
You’d have to have a schlong over 12" long for it to hit the water. You hold it to aim it, you could just as well sit down and direct it to flow into the toilet.
Why do women have an opinion? We’re most likely to be the ones to clean the bathroom.
My cousin is professional basketball player tall. He’s neat as a pin but his bathroom smells like the monkey house at the zoo.
Don’t bull-sheet me. You guys could sit down. It’s some kind of ego thing that makes no real sense."

So, CROW….all of that should completely shoot huge holes in yer “logic” regarding ppl’s plumbing and the restroom’s plumbing; and how gender plays into it all.

I have no problem w/ a man dressed as a woman coming into a men’s restroom and using a urinal right next to me. In fact, I luv the uniqueness of the event. However, since stalled toilets usually prevail in public restrooms, a male dressed as a woman will usually use the “toilets-only” stalled women’s facility. Why would they do anything else? That they would be dressed as a women and be using the men’s restroom is stooopidly inviting (some?) trouble.

THAT, in a very tacit manner, could be viewed as “supporting” yer: _"Its based on a physical difference, not a mental one".

I usually stay out of barroom brawls….unless a rational intervention is hugely necessary. But, I really loathe the idea of a restroom brawl because some uptight, asshole of a male can’t handle a “woman” being there.

 
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In specifically gender based areas. Bathrooms are one as how one uses the facility directly correlates to what parts they have/should have.

So you are saying it is strictly utility based? (Beyond, preventative measures, which came up before) I can’t say I really believe that. I find the facilities pretty universal by and large. And given strict utility, if one is closer to an opposite gendered bathroom shouldn’t one simply use that?

Society- The discussion about a straight man unknowning having sex with another man
Individual- Able to reproduce and still feeling comfortable in their own body.

I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree with the Societal level impact, I really can’t say it registers for me as much of a concern. As for the individual I would agree the potential capacity to reproduce is by and large advantageous – but the relative merit of it is pretty dependent on the persons relationship to the idea. As for comfortable withing their ‘own’ body, I see no difference between moving things one way, or moving things another. I agree that it is an important value. And that both born gender affirmation or denial are important avenues for consideration. Maintaining gender is also, likely, a less elaborate procedure and probably preferable on that count. Although, if not successful by the patients standards I have no qualms about the opposite. Also, as has been mentioned there have been some studies linking transexuality to neurological differences. In such cases I’d really have to say their mental arrangement is a far more definitive statement of gender then their junk.

Any physical change that permanently scars/damages a part of the body as well as impacting a life process. In this case it’s reproduction.

I’d say the valuation of their body and what they seek to do it is up to the individual.

Same argument can be made for anabolic steroids for bodybuilders. Why not allow them to take an artifical hormone because they feel like they want it?

I’m totally okay with that. I mean, for a competition when must abide by a common set of rules. But so long as they’re not cheating competitors then yeah they can juice up on whatever.

Desires aren’t constant. Vasectomies can be reversed.

Quite true. I agree that one should treat lightly when undergoing permanent “life process” altering things. Nevertheless, making their peace with that, and their potential regret, is the individuals burden and dependent upon their self awareness (or lack thereof).

I would prefer to combat the cause of the illness rather than to appease the illness itself.

I don’t think we know the cause of the illness. We’re making some progress, generally in discovering neurological intersexuality.

You’d have to have a schlong over 12" long for it to hit the water.

That is super not true. Least not around here.

 
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what person would want to change sex in this era? they would be made fun of, have to use the opposite bathroom, and get less respect then gays. GAYS! they are still thinking about gay marriage when it should have been resolved 10 years ago!

 
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Originally posted by niceman555:

what person would want to change sex in this era?

A good amount of transgenders, of course. They don’t do this to get respect. They do it because they are living in the wrong body for their gender.

 
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Originally posted by niceman555:

what person would want to change sex in this era? they would be made fun of, have to use the opposite bathroom, and get less respect then gays. GAYS! they are still thinking about gay marriage when it should have been resolved 10 years ago!

I don’t think the majority of people who do it do it to try to gain any sort of status or popularity, I think they tend to do it to try and solve deep rooted unhappiness issues.

 
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being a transgender (Lady Gaga) would give you a bad output. no one wants that.

 
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Originally posted by niceman555:

being a transgender (Lady Gaga) would give you a bad output. no one wants that.

Lady Gaga is transgender? I always thought that was a piece of gossip rather than a fact

 
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Oh, was it? my bad… stupid people and their shit gossip.

 
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Originally posted by niceman555:

Oh, was it? my bad… stupid women and their shit gossip.

you’re amazing

 
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Originally posted by niceman555:

being a transgender would give you a bad output

It would if you’re still in school, but you wouldn’t be bothered if you never told anyone about it. I’m gonna be honest, I’m bisexual. One time I came out on Facebook (yes, I know, stupid decision) and of course, everyone hopped on me. “Eww you like dick wtf?!?!” It gave me a bad output, but eventually people got bored of taunting me and everyone started ignoring me then, so I didn’t have the problem anymore.

 
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Why do people have to fight continuos times in a Serious Thread? don’t talk about physical, or mental stuff, but about the GOD DAMN TOPIC

 
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Originally posted by Kellathor:
Originally posted by niceman555:

being a transgender would give you a bad output

It would if you’re still in school, but you wouldn’t be bothered if you never told anyone about it. I’m gonna be honest, I’m bisexual. One time I came out on Facebook (yes, I know, stupid decision) and of course, everyone hopped on me. “Eww you like dick wtf?!?!” It gave me a bad output, but eventually people got bored of taunting me and everyone started ignoring me then, so I didn’t have the problem anymore.

There is no problem being a bi in this era, but people have gotten immature and will say nasty shit like that. Ignore those people and be confident. It’s the only way to succeed in this hell of a world. Unless you had a sex change you definetly won’t be made fun of.