Government shutdown page 10

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If everyone in this thread took an economics course we could communicate on even footing instead of this poor excuse for discourse.

The free market only provides the amount of a resource or service that maximizes profits. By universalizing certain industries and services that are economically apparent to do so, every other modern nation has managed to divorce having a job from survival. The narrative that the lower and working classes are lazy, and aren’t contributing to the economy and that’s why they don’t deserve middle class and rich people’s tax dollars to get healthy is so astoundingly disconnected from both economic principles that republicans are supposed to be good at, and the reality of the situation. CEOs in our country make 900% more than their workers. Both the minimum wage (something I don’t support) and average wages in all 50 states require over 40 hours a week to pay just rent. Labor elasticity in our country is nearly zero, so just getting a different job isn’t an option. This isn’t sustainable, economic, or reasonable. Stop playing into the theatrics of our take-sides government and start disagreeing on the actual disputable parts of a given economic theory, and if you don’t know anything about those theories, kindly shut the fuck up. If you’ve ever called anyone a socialist or a dictator, you should be dropped off in the middle of North Korea with a million dollars in US currency locked and bolted to your (soon to be severed) wrist.

The Republicans are in their death throes trying to please their corporate overlords right now. They’re saying whatever works. They’re not smart people. I don’t care if you’ve voted republican your whole life, there’s a marked difference between the corruption and colluding of the 60s and the inept and infantile political climate of the 2000s. Stop defending people who have no one but their donor’s best interest in mind, including their own. There’s nothing conservative about their logic, in regards to our economy, or the affordable healthcare act that they castrated. Also, don’t take this as an endorsement for the liberals either. While I support socialized programs, the modern Liberal party is at best also corporate shills, and at worse entirely egalitarian and useless.

I don’t totally endorse this message completely, but the reason he said this is a solid fact.

 
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A little update.
Seems Boehner and Co. were working to draft a (temporary) solution, but between their more conservative (read "Tea Party Whacko) members and outside groups, they gave up and went home for the night.

SOURCE

The House GOP bill met powerful headwinds when the conservative political group Heritage Action on Tuesday evening announced its opposition and said votes on the measure would be included in the group’s influential ratings of lawmakers.

Working for the people?
Nope. Working scared of the purse keepers.

 
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Softest, the Heritage Freedom Foundation is not the Tea Party. It is a conservative think tank of college professors. Don’t blame everything on a non-existent political party. The Tea Party is a party in name only. They are an everyday people grassroots organization. They are American citizens who are tired of government corruption and tired of both parties in power. In the primaries they supported a republican candidate who promised them a different kind of change than other candidates offered. They are conservative and run on the republican ticket, but they are not your run of the mill republicans. They are tired of politics as usual and have banded together to change what they don’t like. The only reason you hate them is because they won’t accept your ideals at face value. But then again, there are a lot of people of both conservative and liberal leanings that are leaning away from Obama and his bunch.

I wish we could get deep into the political structure of Washington, but that is impossible with so many who are unfamiliar with the details of what is really going on. We see the surface only as the rest is kept from the public eye. This shut down goes way beyond Obamacare or not meeting our loan obligations. I will tell you right now, we will pay our loan obligations. We had a partial shutdown and we have been listening to what the politicians want us to hear. In reality, even with the partial shutdown, the treasury has been bringing in billions of dollars from those still working and big business. Last I heard it was 56 billion already received and this was a couple of weeks ago. People are doing exactly what politicians want them to do, getting scared.

All of these park closures were nothing but an attempt to upset people. Just like rangers ticketing people for taking pictures from the side of the road. Was that really needed? Of course not. it was the democrats trying to rile the people and blame republicans for causing all of these problems, when in truth the republicans were doing their job and trying to cut spending. You can believe anything you want, but be assured, you are just allowing yourself to be duped by politicians, just like most Americans. You can take it to the bank, we will not default on our loans,

 
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BSG, not all CEO’s make the high dollars. You are referring to about a dozen companies and the bankers who make that kind of money. When Karma gets on his I hate all companies bandwagon he is wrong. Yes, some of these CEO’s are making obscene amounts of wages, and that doesn’t include the perks and bonuses. Most companies, however, do honest business and make honest money that doesn’t run into the millions a year. I know many business owners who are as honest as the day is long. Of course many of them are small business people and can no longer make it in this economy. One of my friends closed his business last Monday, unable to pay the bloated taxes demanded of him.

Now, if you do a bit of research you will find that if the government took all of the corporate money, all of it, government would run for about 6 months. You would then be back to square one.

It isn’t just republicans who cater to the multinational businesses, democrats are knee deep in kickbacks as well. If you are a politician, you are taking money from these big corporations. Have you ever seen a poor politician? You grip about the 60’s, but we were all working and making a living. How many people can say that now? Let me clue you in on what Walmart is doing. They are not hiring people from the outside directly into a store anymore. The organized a temp company. You hire on to this temp company and are contracted out to Walmart on a part time basis. You won’t receive any benefits, including health insurance. You are a temporary contract laborer. This also means you can be sent to any Walmart or Sam’s store on any given day. This is a direct result of Obamacare. I was reading an article on a major hospital laying of most of their employees for the same reason. Why are there no doctors signing up to accept Obamacare? Why isn’t the public rushing to sign op for social medicine? Last I heard there were 16000 people who have signed up for Obamacare.

You don’t seem to like being called liberal or hearing someone else called a socialist. Well buddy, Karma freely admitted to being a socialist and seems proud of his ideals. It seems you can’t grasp the idea that our country is in trouble and the democrats are in charge. They cannot blame Bush and they cannot really blame the republicans. These are their policies we are living under.

You also seem to be of the thought that a person shouldn’t have to work and make a living. Let me ask you this, who is going to pay for all of you young people taking a free ride? These big corporations you are griping about are big because they sell a product the working people buy, be it gas to heat their homes or clothing to keep them warm in then winter. To be able to buy these products, someone has to make them. That would be the workers who work for these big companies and the small businesses all over America. You have all levels of people working at every level of job. They work to feed their children, to put a roof over their head, to be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor with a vacation once in awhile. Sadly, people are losing those jobs and losing their homes. Those vacations have gone and they are busting their butts trying just to feed those families. Now we are about to take it on the chin again, with a health program that is more than these people can afford. A program that is mishandled buy a government that has never handled anything correctly. Jobs are being lost and these people are going on welfare to try and survive. So your free ride is about to come to a screeching halt as more and more workers leave the workforce.

 
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The Tea Party is a party in name only. They are an everyday people grassroots organization. They are American citizens who are tired of government corruption and tired of both parties in power.

…except your “grassroots organization” is funded and organized by billionaire corporatists like the Koch Brothers.

SOURCE
SOURCE

The only reason you hate them is because they won’t accept your ideals at face value.

Actually, the reason I despise the Tea Party pols is because they seem to lack ideals altogether.
They don’t represent anyone but the corporate backers that have engineered the “groundswell” you are so proud of.
They rode into their seats on promises of fiscal responsibility, and proceeded to get the US its’ first credit downgrade.
As “fiscal” conservatives, Tea Party politicians have introduced more anti-abortion legislation than any other kind of law. Many of those laws actually cost the states more money. Fiscal conservancy? Not really.

Next paragraph…

Sure, the shutdown has been survivable thus far. I’m sure all of those “non-essential” employees are doing great. I’m sure the mortgage companies are all very, very understanding and perfectly willing to let those furloughed employees slide for a month or two, no problem!
Of course then there’s the federal debt ceiling. I don’t suppose you’re worried about that.
I don’t suppose you think it’s a big deal, letting the US default on its’ loans.
I don’t suppose you think any of this, shutdown or default, really has an impact on the health of the US economy.
Of course none of you do, apparently. SOURCE

And I suppose that’s a bit bothersome to me as well. You think that potentially sinking our economy, as flawed as it is, into more trouble is somehow fiscally responsible.
Your group is so far out of whack, and out of touch with reality, that you applaud the hostage situation in the House and laud these fucking idiots as “true patriots”, when in fact they have to potential to be responsible for the economic downfall of the nation you claim to love so much.

I’m going to point out AGAIN, since you don’t seem to understand me when I say it, jhco: I’m not a proponent of Obama’s Presidency.
I don’t see him as some golden child messiah who can do no wrong.
I find plenty of fault with the man and his policies, just like I found plenty of fault with his predecessor.
Just because I think what the TeaOP is doing in the House right now is a fucking stupid waste of time, not to mention a dangerous gamble with an economy that’s already fragile, doesn’t automatically mean I agree with the other party in play.

I’m allowed to have a more complex take on things than “I hate side B so I must love side A”.
Because Murka, I can do that here.

 
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They rode into their seats on promises of fiscal responsibility, and proceeded to get the US its’ first credit downgrade.

You really need to retire this talking point. At best, he’s a he-said she-said where both massive, unsustainable spending by the administration and uncertainty from the Tea Party jointly caused the downgrade. Just as easily as you can find a piece that says it was all Tea Party, I can find pieces that say it’s all massive spending. There are so many factual complaints about the Tea Party you can make. I’m not quite sure why you’re obsessing over using a factually questionable talking point.

Tea Party is a party in name only. They are an everyday people grassroots organization. They are American citizens who are tired of government corruption and tired of both parties in power.

It’s a bit outdated, but this implies that small donors are giving to Tea Party members and big donors are giving to establishment types. The fact that you say the Koch Brothers entirely fund the Tea Party is both A) wrong and B) ignores the millions of small donors that gave to Tea Party groups and candidates.

I’m sure the mortgage companies are all very, very understanding and perfectly willing to let those furloughed employees slide for a month or two, no problem!

Do you honestly think this is going to last for two months?

I don’t suppose you think it’s a big deal, letting the US default on its’ loans.

I wouldn’t mind seeing this talking point scrapped too. We won’t default. Interest payments are $30-40b a month. We take in, what, a couple hundred billion each month. Not gonna happen. Again, focus your argument towards that devastating effects it will have on markets and the economy in general. It’s not as sexy and probably not as politically effective at terrifying the public, but it’s actually accurate.

I’m allowed to have a more complex take on things than “I hate side B so I must love side A”.

Certainly, although seeing as you pretty consistently refuse to blame the Democrats for anything, you shouldn’t be upset that you are perceived as a stalwart Democrat.

 
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Now, to your second post:
First, a quick note: anecdotal “evidence” is ANECDOTAL.

It isn’t just republicans who cater to the multinational businesses, democrats are knee deep in kickbacks as well. If you are a politician, you are taking money from these big corporations. Have you ever seen a poor politician?

No argument there. Simple solution: Get the money out of politics. Money ≠ free speech. Rulings like Citizens United need to be overturned, or at least amended so that they aren’t gate-openings to corporate money in the election process.

You grip about the 60’s, but we were all working and making a living. How many people can say that now?

Unions. Organized labor provided the framework needed for a strong middle class in the US.
Yes, they’ve stepped out of bounds over the years in some places, but a strong organized labor movement carries the clout needed to protect all workers, and provides a stable base from which to bargain for better compensation, fair compensation, for workers.
But oh no the unions are the devil shut em down bust em bust em!

Walmart stuff

I find it kind of ridiculous that you’re using Walmart as an example of how the gubment/Nobarmar is having a negative affect on business.
Walmart, the company that has kept a large amount (majority?) of its employees on food stamps for years.
Walmart, the company that has been running the small business you profess so much admiration for out of business for years.
Walmart, the company that has contributed to the wage slave conditions both here and abroad with no remorse for years.
THIS is your shining example?
Buddy, you need to rethink that.
Walmart has been screwing over its people for decades now. They’re not somehow under pressure because of regulations passed in the last 4 years. They’re using any opportunity they can to screw people some more, and they’re counting on the ignorance and lack of perspective you’re currently displaying to make it fly.

the rest of that paragraph

I’m going to go ahead and ask for a citation or two here.

  • Proof that doctors aren’t “accepting” the ACA? (I don’t even know what you mean here, actually, but sure, show me something.)
  • I’d like to know where you got your astonishingly low figure regarding PPACA enrollment.

It seems you can’t grasp the idea that our country is in trouble and the democrats are in charge. They cannot blame Bush and they cannot really blame the republicans. These are their policies we are living under.

It seems you can’t grasp the idea that the current slump in the nation started way, way before the current administration.
Arguably it has roots in a number of different Administrations over the years. Clinton, for sure. Reagan helped a lot. You could even trace the financial train wreck that the US has become back to the post-war era.
Really I blame folks like Milton Friedman. The view of capitalism as an ideal is flawed, always has been. And when you basically make up rules and observations in some sort of pseudo-science the way the Chicago School did, all you’re doing is building up your own fantasy world.
But here we are.
Granted, the more current Administrations haven’t been helping matters. GWB had two terms to let shit snowball and didn’t do a goddamned thing but dig us the biggest hole in US history (when you consider we were running a budget surplus when he took office), and Obama is in no way the socialist some non-informed voters think he is. He’s just as much in the corporate machine as GWB was (maybe more so, in some ways.)

But sure, keep claiming that all of the decades of setup for the shitshow we’re currently dealing with is somehow the black guy’s fault.
Why not.

As for BSG’s comments on working/making a living; he’s pointing out that, based purely on the numbers, there is so much more wealth and supply available than there are people, technically speaking everyone doesn’t need to make a living.
Technology has advanced so far that theoretically, a large percentage of the population could be supported by a minority, accomplishing the same tasks and meeting the same market and social goals.
We have the reverse, especially here in the states; the masses labor and the smallest minority reaps all the benefits.

But yeah, Murka. We’d rather slave away in ignorance and foolish pride than do something that’s good for us as a whole.
Because being selfish and stupid is lauded as “patriotic”.

 
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No argument there. Simple solution: Get the money out of politics. Money ≠ free speech. Rulings like Citizens United need to be overturned, or at least amended so that they aren’t gate-openings to corporate money in the election process.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say you haven’t read Buckley, McConnell, CU, or any landmark campaign finance supreme court decision and haven’t actually read the legal justifications why money enables speech.

But oh no the unions are the devil shut em down bust em bust em!

Absolutely right. Get rid of public-sector unions.

Proof that doctors aren’t “accepting” the ACA? (I don’t even know what you mean here, actually, but sure, show me something.)

: )

I’d like to know where you got your astonishingly low figure regarding PPACA enrollment.

Daily Mail said 51K in the first week (not linking it since the Daily Mail is rubbish) but since it’s them, it might be 5.1 million.

However, throwing in this treasure from the President’s homeland. “If he wants to keep his monthly payments in check, the Carpentersville resident is looking at an annual deductible for himself and his 7-year-old daughter of $12,700, a more than threefold increase from $3,500 today.” Obamacare ladies and gents!

 
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You really need to retire this talking point.

OK, I’ll leave that one be then.
Can we agree that claiming to be a group of “fiscal conservatives”, and then proceeding to stomp all over the government like a drunk elephant, isn’t exactly the way one should govern with the economy in mind?

The fact that you say the Koch Brothers entirely fund the Tea Party is both A) wrong and B) ignores the millions of small donors that gave to Tea Party groups and candidates.

First, I never claimed that the Kochs are somehow the sole source of funding for the Tea Party.
I cite them as an example because they’re pretty much the model for what’s wrong with political funding in the US.
They funnel literally billions of dollars to extremist groups, media campaigns, pseudo science…all with the goal of keeping the voting populace ignorant and focused on front issues while the real work of deregulation and loosening of rules governing big business takes place in the Congressional back rooms.

Further, if you compare the volume of money people like the Kochs have put in, vs that of individual contributors, there’s really no contest.

Do you honestly think this is going to last for two months?

It’s not so much the idea that this will actually carry through to a full default, as the knowledge that people like jhco think it wouldn’t matter if it did.
This is just stunningly flippant. I mean, really…the lack of understanding of what a default could do to us economically. It’s scary.

Again, focus your argument towards that devastating effects it will have on markets and the economy in general. It’s not as sexy and probably not as politically effective at terrifying the public, but it’s actually accurate.

Sorry, guess I haven’t been clear. I was thinking of the markets and the US economy as a whole, in regards to the default.
If our credit gets downgraded again, the end effect on the economy is potentially very, very negative.
Is it a guarantee? Nope.
But markets being what they are, it’s also not something you want to test just to prove a point.

Certainly, although seeing as you pretty consistently refuse to blame the Democrats for anything, you shouldn’t be upset that you are perceived as a stalwart Democrat.

Again, I think you misunderstand me.
In THIS instance, I wholeheartedly blame the Right.
The TeaOP House started this current ball rolling, by refusing to deal with the budget/default without trying to wring something out of the Administration.
They attempted to use the budget/default as leverage to undo the ACA, which had already passed into law and been upheld by SCOTUS.
The House changed the rules shortly before the shutdown in order to prevent a break in their own ranks from bringing a “clean” bill to the floor for a vote, which suggests a premeditative move in the direction of a shutdown.
In THIS INSTANCE, I feel it is the Right, specifically the House GOP/Tea Party, that are to blame for the situation we’re in.

Suggestions that the Democrat-controlled Senate and the Presidency somehow should have done more to “negotiate” are asinine.
There was nothing to negotiate. The demands from the House were completely unreasonable, and without merit.

 
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Okay, let’s have some fun dissecting & gravely wounding jhco’s latest tripe.
It looks like softest_voice beat me to it,,,
but, what the heck.
I’ve already went to the effort,,,
so, let ’er stand.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Softest, the Heritage Freedom Foundation is not the Tea Party. It is a conservative think tank of college professors. Don’t blame everything on a non-existent political party.

First: NON-EXISTANT PARTY?
Then why the fuck is PARTY in the name?

Second: Let’s see what Wiki says about the Tea Party
“They have formed Super PACs to support candidates sympathetic to their goals and have opposed what they call the “Republican establishment” candidates."

This rouge political ideology, by any other name; still smells the same. And, I believe there is whiff of the Koch brothers to it. Huge money pushing its own selfishly-distorted capitalism agenda superficially piggy-backed to the backs of the, by comparison, more rational efforts of the Tea Party movement.
“They have formed Super PACs (Koch Bros.) to support candidates sympathetic to their goals and have opposed what they call the “Republican establishment” candidates."

Let’s see just what these rouges are doing to jhco’s vews of his precious Constitution:
" Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent. Adherents cite it, yet do so more as a cultural reference rather than out of commitment to the text, which they seek to alter."

Third: Let’s have a look at this Heritage Freedom Foundation
.

The Tea Party is a party in name only. They are an everyday people grassroots organization. They are American citizens who are tired of government corruption and tired of both parties in power. In the primaries they supported a republican candidate who promised them a different kind of change than other candidates offered. They are conservative and run on the republican ticket, but they are not your run of the mill republicans.
NO, they are a very, VERY small minority w/ an extreme agenda that they so cherish that they are willing to refuse to see themselves for the childish assholes they are by making their ideology some kind of Bible that regards ALL OTHERS as being evil and should be eradicated at all costs by employing a “The-ends-justify-the-means” strategy.
.
They are tired of politics as usual and have banded together to change what they don’t like. The only reason you hate them is because they won’t accept your ideals at face value.
Hooooboy…..here he goes again w/ that shit.
Hmmm…it sure sounds a lot like what I just said above about the “TeaBaggers”.
I wonder if jhco, in some manner, identifies w/ or actually is a Tea Party member?
.
But then again, there are a lot of people of both conservative and liberal leanings that are leaning away from Obama and his bunch.
This is something new on the political front?
I’d say that it has been going on for a long time and depends upon which direction the political climate is blowing the winds of opinion.
.

I wish we could get deep into the political structure of Washington, but that is impossible with so many who are unfamiliar with the details of what is really going on. We see the surface only as the rest is kept from the public eye.

Nah…there is obviously much more known about the machinations of said politics. It’s just that jhco much prefers to listen to only that small amount that feeds his biases.
.

This shut down goes way beyond Obamacare or not meeting our loan obligations.
Well….duh!
.
I will tell you right now, we will pay our loan obligations.
Nah…tell us later.
I’m most happy that he is so sure we won’t default & end up having to "rent’ America from the new “landlords”.
.
We had a partial shutdown and we have been listening to what the politicians want us to hear. In reality, even with the partial shutdown, the treasury has been bringing in billions of dollars from those still working and big business. Last I heard it was 56 billion already received and this was a couple of weeks ago. People are doing exactly what politicians want them to do, getting scared.
And this is relevant news….HOW?
Such is simply standard politics at work….w/ a huge dash of neo-extremism added that is giving a huge fucking foul taste to the process.
.
All of these park closures were nothing but an attempt to upset people.
OR, maybe it was done to DEMONSTRATE to those ppl jhco thinks are “unfamiliar w/ the details of what is really going on” exactly how this shutdown is effecting them in the even more important aspects of their lives?
.
Just like rangers ticketing people for taking pictures from the side of the road. Was that really needed? Of course not. it was the democrats trying to rile the people and blame republicans for causing all of these problems, when in truth the republicans were doing their job and trying to cut spending.
Like the lonely bowling pin said: SPARE ME….this bullshit rhetoric of my-side-are-saints-&-your-side-is-evil" for this particular issue.
.
You can believe anything you want, but be assured, you are just allowing yourself to be duped by politicians, just like most Americans.
I wonder if jhco could come our of his delusional comma (see my above assessment of the Tea Party) long enough to see that he is also one of “those Americans”?
.
You can take it to the bank, we will not default on our loans,

Damn….I must have missed that sheepskin hanging on his wall that notes his PhD in economics.
I mean…it’s good to have blind, childish nationalism FAITH in ones country.
HOWEVER, it is much better to be adult realistic.
Wait….deja vu. Wasn’t this just touched on very recently on this forum?
 
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Can we agree that claiming to be a group of “fiscal conservatives”, and then proceeding to stomp all over the government like a drunk elephant, isn’t exactly the way one should govern with the economy in mind?

We can.

First, I never claimed that the Kochs are somehow the sole source of funding for the Tea Party.
I cite them as an example because they’re pretty much the model for what’s wrong with political funding in the US.
They funnel literally billions of dollars to extremist groups, media campaigns, pseudo science…all with the goal of keeping the voting populace ignorant and focused on front issues while the real work of deregulation and loosening of rules governing big business takes place in the Congressional back rooms.

Further, if you compare the volume of money people like the Kochs have put in, vs that of individual contributors, there’s really no contest.

So does George Soros and other liberal bundlers. I refuse to be outraged over someone on the far right doing it while essentially ignoring the far left doing literally the exact same thing.

Sorry, guess I haven’t been clear. I was thinking of the markets and the US economy as a whole, in regards to the default.
If our credit gets downgraded again, the end effect on the economy is potentially very, very negative.
Is it a guarantee? Nope.
But markets being what they are, it’s also not something you want to test just to prove a point.

Yes, we agree on all this. Just the buzzword ‘default’ really irritates me because that isn’t going to happen. If we hit the debt limit, money would first go to pay the interest. As long as we have more in operating monthly income than the interest payment, we won’t default.

Again, I think you misunderstand me.
In THIS instance, I wholeheartedly blame the Right.
The TeaOP House started this current ball rolling, by refusing to deal with the budget/default without trying to wring something out of the Administration.
They attempted to use the budget/default as leverage to undo the ACA, which had already passed into law and been upheld by SCOTUS.
The House changed the rules shortly before the shutdown in order to prevent a break in their own ranks from bringing a “clean” bill to the floor for a vote, which suggests a premeditative move in the direction of a shutdown.
In THIS INSTANCE, I feel it is the Right, specifically the House GOP/Tea Party, that are to blame for the situation we’re in.

Ha ha, I know how you feel about the Right on this issue. I’m saying, in general, I can’t think of a thread where you’ve come out and sort of sided with the GOP. I was also under the impression that you were pretty staunchly Democratic until you came out and said you aren’t as liberal as it may seem.

There was nothing to negotiate.

Delaying the mandate for everyone, to treat people the same as big nasty corporations, isn’t something to negotiate?

The demands from the House were completely unreasonable, and without merit.

Five unilateral amendments to a Congressional law is without merit, but there you go.

 
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NO, they are a very, VERY small minority

Well, I wouldn’t call 22% a very, VERY small minority (although Rasmussen said it was 8% back in January and I can’t imagine there was that much of a spike. The number is probably more in the low teens as the question from Gallup seems poorly worded – still though, not something I’d call a very, VERY small minority).

Damn….I must have missed that sheepskin hanging on his wall that notes his PhD in economics.
I mean…it’s good to have blind, childish nationalism FAITH in ones country.
HOWEVER, it is much better to be adult realistic.
Wait….deja vu. Wasn’t this just touched on very recently on this forum?

Here’s something to hopefully end your baseless (dare I say, childish ; ) fear that we’ll default and be loaning out the Washington Monument to Chinese dignitaries. And no need to thank me for my adult realism.

 
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JHCO, you literally just described all of the problems I already laid out and provided no real reason why your beloved “republican” (neocon) party isn’t the primary cause of our current collapse, with the democrats taking the role as enablers. Explaining to me that the zero elasticity of labor in our country is the fault of “Obamacare” (I’m never going to take anyone seriously who uses this word.) while citing Walmart almost seems like you’re trolling. Elasticity has been tanking for years. Outsourcing, dollar inflation, the mortgage crisis, the industry bailouts, defunding and inflation of education, election spending, tax breaks for the wealthy, privatization of correctional facilities and the drug war that funds them, incongruities in lobbying power of large corporations, and most contradictory to your point: The cost of both healthcare and childcare to both small businesses and the individual are what has contributed to the low elasticity of the workforce. Those are all self evident. The problem you’re describing that “Obamacare” would specifically raise the elasticity of workers and would force businesses to cut into their beloved profits to keep employees. Small businesses will be unnecessarily hurt by the affordable healthcare act because republicans removed the public option, meaning only large companies will be able to offer competitive healthcare.

If you reply to this post demonizing democrats and praising republicans again I’m officially done. This is a 2 party problem, and it has far more to do with corporations and incompetence than anything else. By the way, I was suggesting that the 60s were more beneficial because we had actual, real, live conservatives in office. Reagan made it illegal for hospitals to refuse service to patients by the way, so the inflation and conflagration of insurance and healthcare costs is already being experienced, and will be curbed by properly distributing the cost of healthcare to our more-than-wealthy nation.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

Here’s something to hopefully end your baseless (dare I say, childish ; ) fear that we’ll default and be loaning out the Washington Monument to Chinese dignitaries. And no need to thank me for my adult realism.

The USA has pretty much the same problem as Greek: If every company that make business in this country would pay the taxes, which they must pay by law, then they would have no problems with debt. And I’m mostly speaking about big companies. I don’t want to say that small companies can’t be corrupt and evil, but they simple have no choice. If they don’t pay their taxes, then it’s game over for them.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

Daily Mail said 51K in the first week (not linking it since the Daily Mail is rubbish) but since it’s them, it might be 5.1 million.

However, throwing in this treasure from the President’s homeland. “If he wants to keep his monthly payments in check, the Carpentersville resident is looking at an annual deductible for himself and his 7-year-old daughter of $12,700, a more than threefold increase from $3,500 today.” Obamacare ladies and gents!

I don’t know how ACA is going to affect things overall…as previously mentioned my daughter’s individual PPO is dropping her and discontinuing because it doesn’t meet the standards for ACA. So I have to go to the marketplace or whatever to find her a new one by March 2014. Right now she had a monthly PPO of about $90, and a dental plan of about $22. Based on what I’ve seen in our area the cheapest new one looks to be a monthly plan of about $122-130, and a dental of about $30 per month, so it’s a little hike. Higher deductible too I believe. Nothing catastrophic, but I certainly don’t appreciate it. Then again, does it cover more? I don’t know, I’ll have to look into it.

All these changes are looking to be just a hot mess.

And also, if the ACA ends up putting a lot of people on public medical, like Medicaid, the doctors and benefits approved by that are greatly diminished (a fraction of the Dr’s accept Medicaid, versus something like Blue Shield, which most accept).

 
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Good thing they didn’t shut down water, food, medicines or hospitals…

 
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Originally posted by TheKnifeGrinder:

Good thing they didn’t shut down water, food, medicines or hospitals…

If they did that, it would be chaos.

 
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Welp, the can has been kicked it seems.

“Today’s legislation won’t help us reduce our fast-growing debt,‘’ Mr. Ryan said after the vote. "In my judgment, this isn’t a breakthrough. We’re just kicking the can down the road.’’

LOL except the national deficit has been shrinking since 2009. SOURCE
So, yeah, can kicked, and Paul Ryan is still a fucking liar. Awesome.

 
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This should make you and other liberals very happy Softest. However the consequences of the Rhino Republicans weakness will eventually destroy our county by letting democrats have a free spending spree on the American workers backs. Prepare to see our economy dip again. I see your rhetoric at me and my projections will not get an apology, even though they were spot on.

You might be happy to find out Delaware got their first signup for Obamacare. Several states seem to be having problems convincing people of the greatness of the ACA.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/delaware-celebrates-first-person-finally-enrolls-obamacare_763603.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/03/enrollment-in-obamacares-federal-exchange-so-far-is-in-the-single-digits/

GOP congressman: Few people signing up for Obamacare
politicalmugshot
Posted by
CNN Political Unit

Washington (CNN) – Rep. Buck McKeon, the longtime California Republican and House Armed Services Commitee chairman, told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer Wednesday that only a very small number of Americans have enrolled in new health care law exchanges that opened for business on October 1.

I am still getting punched at for trying to explain the facts. Seems you and the other liberals can’t bring yourselves to accept facts. I have told you how companies are reacting to obamacare and you all seem to ignore what is really going on. Well, I will let you see another company or two so you can ignore it some more.

http://www.fox28.com/story/23688796/2013/10/14/bonnie-doon-ice-cream-plant-downtown-mishawaka-location-close

I have told you people are not following along with your ideals and you or Karma keep saying they are. However, the facts say otherwise. The democrats think they are winning, but they are losing. Everything I told you in the two previous posts were exactly what is happening, yet you chose to dispute it regardless. This is Rasmussen and their polling data on how people feel about our country. It seems I am not the only one who sees failure in our future.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/top_stories/right_direction_or_wrong_track

 
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….and, the shutdown is over, or at least comfortably delayed for the near future.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

This should make you and other liberals very happy Softest. However the consequences of the Rhino Republicans weakness will eventually destroy our county by letting democrats have a free spending spree on the American workers backs. Prepare to see our economy dip again. I see your rhetoric at me and my projections will not get an apology, even though they were spot on.

You might be happy to find out Delaware got their first signup for Obamacare. Several states seem to be having problems convincing people of the greatness of the ACA.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/delaware-celebrates-first-person-finally-enrolls-obamacare_763603.html

Don’t know about Delaware… but I went for a drive kinda randomly round here yesterday (ok, I got lost looking for where I should have been going)… and I know this is completely unscientific and may not be representative of the whole area, but every 5th garden / vehicle had a sign, sticker, etc supporting the ACA – didn’t see any opposing :/

With specific regard to the weekly standard’s article… i note she was the first to succeed in signing up to the healthcare exchange, as the article reiterates many people have been trying since October 1st unsuccessfully (who’d have thought the system would need to be robust enough to deal with public interest / demand!).

am still getting punched at for trying to explain the facts. Seems you and the other liberals can’t bring yourselves to accept facts. I have told you how companies are reacting to obamacare and you all seem to ignore what is really going on. Well, I will let you see another company or two so you can ignore it some more.[/blockquote]

From the article you cite:


Tuesday, FOX28 talked with owners of the Bonnie Doon plant and downtown Mishawaka location. They tell us there are many reasons for the shutdown such as the declining economy and the rise in production costs. But the number one factor? The anticipated cost of the Affordable Care Act.

FOX28 talked with the CFO who confirmed the anticipation of the Affordable Care Act played a large part in the shut down, something Kyle Hannon, Elkhart Chamber of Commerce President says many small businesses are wrestling with. “Our businesses have been concerned, kind of wondering ’how much is this going to cost? How is it going to impact us?”

He says he doesn’t expect any big layoffs or shutdowns like at Bonnie Doon because most companies are already making adjustments. “Companies that were right on the edge of hiring more employees have held back because they don’t want to go over that magic 50 employee number.”

FOX28 checked with St. Joseph County’s Chamber of Commerce as well and they say they have the same concerns.


Now, I read that as ‘We were already struggling and decided to close now because the costs of the ACA may have been the ’final nail in the coffin’ and/or simply to blame a piece of legislation, with unknown financial implications, because we’re opposed to it’s implementation on political grounds e.g. it sounds better to say we’re closing because of the ACA than to say we’re a failed company (as they were clearly already failing)…

That particular chamber of commerce, it seems, agree that it’s having neglible effect on most businesses – sure, those with up to 49 employees may decline to take on more until they know the cost implications (which is purient)… but worst case scenario I foresee is the growth of the small business sector. A rather simplified example of what I’m trying to say there… rather than one company doing well and dominating and growing to have, say, 100 employees… you’ll have 3 or 4 businesses in the same field, each with 30-40 employees.

anyhow… that’s my, admittedly sleepy, take on it.

 
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Welp, the can has been kicked it seems.

I sure can’t wait to go through this again in January!!!!!!!

 
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Here it comes, Obama care in action. I wonder if this is part of his hopey changey thing.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21213547-obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance?lite