Amanda Knox farce

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So, on their third trial Amanda Knox and her ex boyfriend Raffaelle Sollecito have been found guilty! and sentenced to 28 years in prison. Obviously she is going to appeal….and I doubt Italy will be her choice of holiday destination for a while.

Should the US government extradite her if she is, again, found guilty after her appeal?

I am British, and feelings are running high here….most are for the US sending her ass back to Italy to serve her sentence as the evidence against her is quite compelling……DNA on the murder weapon, the fact that she returned to a blood covered flat and then showered before calling the cops…..but is this enough?

Counter the evidence with a corrupt Italian legal system and the fact that a third party (who’s name I cannot remember) is already in prison serving a reduced prison term for implicating Amanda and Raffaelle.

Now you Americans are very insistent when it comes to other countries making suspects stand trial in America….so surely you should uphold the word of international law and send her back……shouldn’t you?

But…..is the evidence strong enough?

I, personally would prefer her to be a free (accidental) murderer….rather than let an innocent woman rot in an Italian prison cell…..unless more evidence comes to light.

 
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SEND HER TO THE BRIG!

 
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She’s deffo guilty by the looks of it. It’s a bit of a joke that the Italians ceded to US pressure in the first place and let her off the hook. How she couldn’t be guilty when the victim was found sexually abused and stabbed multiple times in her apartment without her knowledge is quite beyond me.

 
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Originally posted by woodythedon:

She’s . How she couldn’t be guilty when the victim was found sexually abused and stabbed multiple times in her apartment without her knowledge is quite beyond me.

But is the fact that it is beyond you proof enough for a young woman to spend 28 years in prison?

 
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Maybe you should post a link or give some kind of detail about who this woman is and why we would care.

 
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I agree, all this proof you didnt cite is super believable

 
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As my old friend Inspector Javert used to say
“Every man is born in sin, Every man must pay the price.”
So, I think if she is convicted by due process, US should bite the bullet and extradite her or they should forget Shakeel Afridi. We’ve already made a big enough mistake by letting Raymond Davis go.

 
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Originally posted by prometheus25:

the evidence against her is quite compelling

Nope.

Wikipedia is too busy focusing on “Neutral Point of View” to state the obvious conclusion, but it remains obvious even when presented in the “NPOV” style:

Guede’s shoe prints, fingerprints, and DNA were found in the bedroom, his DNA was found on Kercher and her clothing, and his skin cells were inside her body. Guede’s DNA mixed with Kercher’s was in bloodstains on the inside of her shoulder bag.[118] No shoe prints, clothing fibers, hairs, fingerprints, skin cells or DNA of Knox were found on Kercher or in the room.[119][120]

Rudy’s DNA was everywhere, and Amanda’s was nowhere. The obvious conclusion: Rudy was there, and Amanda wasn’t.

The following sentence of the Wikipedia article:

The prosecution alleged that all forensic traces in the bedroom which incriminated Knox had been wiped away by her and Sollecito.[121][122]

Let me reiterate.

> “wiped away”
> “all forensic traces”

I would laugh, but somehow the court fell for it. And now an innocent woman is back on trial.

The prosecution’s case centred on Kercher’s interactions with Knox, and Knox’s demeanor and movements on the day the body was discovered.[123][124]

Yeah, about that…

“But come on,” says a voice in your head. “Does this really sound like the behavior of an innocent person?”

You have to shut that voice out. Ruthlessly. Because it has no way of knowing. That voice is designed to assess the motivations of members of an ancestral hunter-gather band. At best, it may have the ability to distinguish the correct murderer from between 2 and 100 possibilities — 6 or 7 bits of inferential power on the absolute best of days.

[…]

DNA analysis, in contrast, has in principle the ability to uniquely identify a single individual from among the entire human species (depending on how much of the genome is looked at; also ignoring identical twins, etc.) — that’s more like 30-odd bits of inferential power. In terms of epistemic technology, we’re talking about something like the difference in locomotive efficacy between a horsedrawn carriage and the Starship Enterprise.

[…]

This is why it’s so difficult for people to intuitively appreciate that all of the chatter about Amanda’s “suspicious behavior” with various convincing-sounding narratives put forth by the prosecution is totally and utterly drowned out to oblivion by the sheer strength of the DNA signal pointing to Guédé alone.

Amanda’s innocent. That’s all there is to say on the matter. She simply was not present.

Originally posted by woodythedon:

She’s deffo guilty by the looks of it.

First address the DNA.

Your intuition could single out the right suspect from maybe 100 people. DNA can single out one person among 7 billion. Against 70 million to 1 odds, “how she couldn’t be guilty is quite beyond me” means squat.

 
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I’m British and I go against your ‘most’ viewpoint (and I’ve yet to meet anyone who has much of an opinion on this, as the whole media interest seems to stem not from outrage but from the fact Amanda Knox was reasonably attractive a few years ago)… not paid any great attention to the case but as far as I understand there’s no compelling evidence to support a conviction.

Doesn’t mean Knox and Rafa weren’t involved at all, or that they were, or that they watched, or didn’t, or whatever else… but everything about the case (their testimonies, Rudy Guede, DNA, prosecution) seems like a huge mess.

And all happening in a country with a justice system that would make a clown wearing a wig look respectable and wise. If I was in charge of such things, I wouldn’t extradite.

 
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Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Maybe you should post a link or give some kind of detail about who this woman is and why we would care.

You’re not obliged to care. And if you don’t know what this is about I’m curious as to why you feel the need to state your disinterest.

Guede was found guilty probably rightly, but the idea Knox had no knowledge of what was going on is ridiulous. It’s only cos she’s a fit American white girl that the media got all hyped and the US used its muscle to step in. Granted the Italian police bungled the investigation, but even so it’s pretty clear she was in some way involved. It’s mightily hypocritical if the US doesn’t allow her to be extradited given that they ruthlessley try to do so when the shoe’s on the other foot.

 
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Originally posted by woodythedon:
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Maybe you should post a link or give some kind of detail about who this woman is and why we would care.

You’re not obliged to care. And if you don’t know what this is about I’m curious as to why you feel the need to state your disinterest.

Guede was found guilty probably rightly, but the idea Knox had no knowledge of what was going on is ridiulous. It’s only cos she’s a fit American white girl that the media got all hyped and the US used its muscle to step in. Granted the Italian police bungled the investigation, but even so it’s pretty clear she was in some way involved. It’s mightily hypocritical if the US doesn’t allow her to be extradited given that they ruthlessley try to do so when the shoe’s on the other foot.

I agree, its super obvious she is guilty because of all that proof you mentioned to back up your claim

 
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Kircher was found dead after being stabbed and sexually abused in the apartment they shared together and the autopsy showed she was attacked by more than one person. The guy they nailed for the crime was accused of breaking into the house. However, the smashed window was 12 feet off the ground making it clear it was a case of misdirection by Knox. Knox claimed during a police interview she had been at a blokes all night however she in actual fact left his place at 9pm and didn’t return til 1am. Knox made several statements and even implicated herself as an accomplice to the murder before withdrawing her statement. Although the conduct of the Italian police was a bit iffy, it’s Italy not Guantanamo. They didn’t force her to say any of it. Her version of events completely lacks credibility and if it weren’t for US diplomatic pressure and dodgy Italian policework she’d already be in the nick.

And if the US blocks her extradition given how hard they’ve been trying to nab Assange and Snowden it would be taking the piss.

 
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Seriously, none of those details actually matter. They only seem to matter because you already suspect her, when there was never any valid reason to put her on the suspect list in the first place.

Let’s take a step back and imagine we’re conducting the investigation properly. We’ll want to start fresh, meaning we’ll clear everyone off of our list of suspects.

Our suspect pool is currently the entire population of the earth, which is no good. How do we narrow that down?

Well, we could grab random people, interrogate them, and find some with suspicious-sounding stories. Maybe even someone who would sign a false confession after hours in custody.

Fun fact: confessions are nearly worthless as evidence. There are just too many false positives.

Fortunately for us, there’s a much better way of narrowing the pool of suspects. As described above, DNA can pick out one person (or maybe a few, in the case of identical twins) from the entire human population of 7 billion. Now we’re talking!

Let’s get some DNA evidence. Results:

Guede’s shoe prints, fingerprints, and DNA were found in the bedroom, his DNA was found on Kercher and her clothing, and his skin cells were inside her body. Guede’s DNA mixed with Kercher’s was in bloodstains on the inside of her shoulder bag.

That’s a lot of DNA. And it’s located in some incredibly incriminating places. And we didn’t mess up the DNA tests.

Suspect 1: found.

Let’s keep looking.

No shoe prints, clothing fibers, hairs, fingerprints, skin cells or DNA of Knox were found on Kercher or in the room.

Well, that’s it then. We’ve got our murderer, plus evidence that he acted alone. Autopsy or no, signed confession or no, Rudy and Meridith were the only ones present.

(Reminder: absence of evidence, in situations where we’d expect to find evidence, is absolutely evidence of absence.)

Originally posted by woodythedon:

Her version of events completely lacks credibility

So does Rudy’s. To some extent, so does yours.

Fortunately, we have ways of differentiating between the various people who lack credibility. It’s pretty clear that Rudy was involved, while you and Amanda were not.

(See how it feels to be promoted to the list of suspects for no reason? Once people start thinking of you as a suspect, you can’t do anything even slightly odd without them taking it as evidence of murder.)

Originally posted by woodythedon:

And if the US blocks her extradition given how hard they’ve been trying to nab Assange and Snowden it would be taking the piss.

This part I have to agree with. I’d just hope it doesn’t come to extradition.

 
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The italian court system is the best in the world.

So what if they messed up this trial by persecuting someone with no evidence? Obviously, being nervous in a courtroom does not “prove” she is a murderer.

Also remember that time they sent a bunch of geologists to jail because they didnt predict an earthquake’s exact time and strength?

Obviously the italian court system is run by very competent and intelligent people

discuss

 
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Originally posted by woodythedon:

And if the US blocks her extradition given how hard they’ve been trying to nab Assange and Snowden it would be taking the piss.

I would expect that to happen to be honest. It plays into the general American psyche. Namely that US citizens are superior to those from other countries. It is right for the US to demand citizens from other countries to face justice in the wholly superior US. It is wrong for other, inferior countries to demand citizens from the US be delivered to their clutches.

I’m interested in which way this goes, but my money’s on the US refusing extradition. Then kicking up a stink further down the line when they wish to extradite someone to face justice in the US and the country blocks it.

 
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I suspect her because she lived in the apartment with Kircher and changed her story numerous times when she was proven to be lying. DNA may prove that Guede was involved. But it doesn’t imply Knox’s complete innocence either. I don’t think Knox necessarily did the deed, but I think she was an accessory.

The fact that Guede was supposed to have broken in is ludicrous given how high the smashed window was. And since Knox lived in the same apartment as Kircher and has no alibi for the time of the murder it doesn’t take a genius to work out who let him in.

An old Gestapo interrogation technique was simply to get suspects to go over their story over and over again. The assumption being that if you’re lying you will eventually fuck up your retelling and if you’re telling the truth this won’t be a problem. Knox had loads of opportunities to tell her story to the police and she changed her story loads of times when she was found out to be lying to the investigators. If she is innocent why would she lie? I accept that under stress someone could very feasibly let some small detail slip their mind. But there’s a difference between that and being caught lying and changing your story accordingly.

 
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I agree, there is no reason to lie ever because if you do you are guilty of murder

its not like people will lie for reasons like protecting someone they care about or covering for themselves doing something unrelated but illegal.

Also, after a traumatic event people will always calmly tell the same story about what happened forever and never fill in the blanks later with other peoples stories

 
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Originally posted by woodythedon:

But it doesn’t imply Knox’s complete innocence either.

It implies that she wasn’t actually in the room, and therefore didn’t commit the murder.

Originally posted by woodythedon:

I don’t think Knox necessarily did the deed, but I think she was an accessory.

Then you’re ahead of the curve. Last I heard, the prosecution is still arguing that she’s a murderer, not an accomplice.

Originally posted by woodythedon:

Knox had loads of opportunities to tell her story to the police and she changed her story loads of times when she was found out to be lying to the investigators.

It’s an odd feeling to be agreeing with RollerCROWster, but our memories are not nearly as good as we think, and that makes us tell inconsistent stories, no matter how innocent we actually are.

 
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but our memories are not nearly as good as we think, and that makes us tell inconsistent stories, no matter how innocent we actually are.

Not to mention that as years pass and you’re pressed in a stressful situation to answer leading questions, there’s bound to be some situationally-poor wording or mix-up. It’s the prosecution’s job to try and force those by asking questions designed to confuse or self condemn. It’s a screwed up system that rewards whoever can distort events to their favor by convincing bystanders who are not trained in logical analysis and may have bias.

At least in the U.S.A. I have no idea how it works over in Italy.

 
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Originally posted by woodythedon:
Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Maybe you should post a link or give some kind of detail about who this woman is and why we would care.

You’re not obliged to care. And if you don’t know what this is about I’m curious as to why you feel the need to state your disinterest.

Guede was found guilty probably rightly, but the idea Knox had no knowledge of what was going on is ridiulous. It’s only cos she’s a fit American white girl that the media got all hyped and the US used its muscle to step in. Granted the Italian police bungled the investigation, but even so it’s pretty clear she was in some way involved. It’s mightily hypocritical if the US doesn’t allow her to be extradited given that they ruthlessley try to do so when the shoe’s on the other foot.

I’m not obliged to care about any thread, but I tend to flag threads that sound trollish. Not bothering to give information because ’everyone’s already in the know’ seems pretty trollish.

 
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How the fuck do you even wipe away all forensic evidence? Does the court even know how much DNA you leave behind if you were to do something like commit a bloody murder and sexually abuse the victim? If she had done it the forensic evidence wouldn’t be “nothing was found but she might have cleaned up”, it would be more along the lines of “HOLY FUCKTON OF SHIT PLASTERED ALL OVER THE WALLS”.

Also, about the extradition thing: I support extradition TO the country WHERE THE ALLEGED CRIME WAS COMMITTED. Given that the crime happened in Italy, let Knox stay there.

 
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Originally posted by Helltank:

Also, about the extradition thing: I support extradition TO the country WHERE THE ALLEGED CRIME WAS COMMITTED. Given that the crime happened in Italy, let Knox stay there.

She’s in ’murica

 
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Originally posted by dd790:
Originally posted by Helltank:

Also, about the extradition thing: I support extradition TO the country WHERE THE ALLEGED CRIME WAS COMMITTED. Given that the crime happened in Italy, let Knox stay there.

She’s in ’murica

I have what I consider the perfect solution.
It certainly is one I generated from my extraordinary mind….lol
Nah, I stole it from spy & war movies.
And, a few of my wife’s family reunions.
It is merely something which Helltank should have thought of: PRISIONER EXCHANGE.
We could even sweeten the deal by sending them a half dozen “Italian” prisoners.
It is win-win for us.
We free up fail space for actual guilty Americans,,,
we give Amanda a just trial.
It can be win-win for Italy….unless they are as stoooopid as many think they are.
All they have done thus far, as I see it, is expose the…errrrrr, deficiencies of their legal/justice system.
A prisoner exchange would, at the very least, show they do care about “their own”.
What they do w/ the retuning Italian prisoners might be interesting; and, prove to be a win-mediocre faux pas situation.
 
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Why the hell should I send you prisoners in exchange of what I already should have?