Is it wrong to hold the Sochi Olympics in the 3rd world country of Russia? page 2

47 posts

Flag Post

I think it’s wrong that while the spotlight is on Russia, the media and politicians aren’t making enough noise about things such as this

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

I think it’s wrong that while the spotlight is on Russia, the media and politicians aren’t making enough noise about things such as this

FlabbyWW, I’m going to take a stance that some ppl might view as being somewhat one akin to the Devil’s Advocate. But, since Satan has so many lawyers to choose from to represent him, I’ll try for a presentation in the form of an “expanded viewpoint” which addresses the ones you are making here.

Only the assholes who believe it is okay & even desirable to treat fellow humans in a despicable, degrading, and physically harmful manner would not view Gay bashing as wrong.
I don’t remember who it was here on SD, but someone pointed out that the U.S. has come a long distance from the attitudes on homosexuality around the world.

There was a time in a not-so-distance past that a lot of the world viewed America as being a very strong advocate of human rights. Other nations were encouraged by & saw leadership in the many areas of social discourse we struggled with and achieved various levels of success. I think many recent political actions has (greatly?) somewhat tarnished that image/respect.

Social negativity, esp. in any of the forms of “bullying”, are particularly reprehensible to me. This bullying can run the gamut of simple cliquish verbal abuse of a fellow school student right on up the ladder to how some nations view what America does to other nations. In my youth days, it wasn’t uncommon for the “more ambitious” Gay bashers to find a relief from boredom on a Saturday night to go “roll some queers” (Slang To rob…a drunken, sleeping, or otherwise helpless person).

Of late, we even have the much greater examples (yet, thankfully very rare) of behavior like that given Matthew Shepherd; which was given huge media attention. We had a fine movie, Boys Don’t Cry that was based on actual events. Oddly, the character’s death wasn’t generated by the more typical homophobia. His/her “social group” of guys beat/killed HER merely because she preferred to be seen/treated as a male. It’s not like the more “odious” form where a male pretends to be female & elicits the usual “interests” from males.

I greatly desire to believe that such media exposure of our American homophobia is a strong part of how swiftly & strongly we are moving away from it….or, driving those who aren’t capable of change into the shameful position of practicing it “underground”. Darkly humorously put, “underground” (buried upon death) is simply going to be a huge step in reducing homophobia….since attitudes on it have a keen divide between the old & the young ppl.

Someone started a thread about a bill introduced by the House in my state of Kansas that touted how it was intended to protect religious rights. Basically, it gave individual employees (& businesses?), including those in govt. service, the right to refuse service to Gays…in particular, those who were in a committed relationship. But, such defining was at the discretion of the individual in regards to what their personal religious concept on homosexuality is.

All of my couching a limited view of how homosexuality is treated has been necessary to present my view on why the current spotlight on Russia isn’t making enough noise about the homophobia there. The overly simple answer: because that isn’t what “the media” is interested in. It’s main goal is to make money….by presenting a subject that is of interest to the widest possible viewership. Even though there are (hopefully a large number) parts of “the media” that do have a keen interest in this area, they are small, don’t have the means to reach large audiences, …..and sadly, such audiences just don’t exist.

This isn’t to say that a large amount of ppl don’t sympathize w/ Gays and want their rights upheld. It comes down to where that interest falls in the basic day-to-day demands of the average person’s time. (Please keep this point in mind…I’ll use it when I address the reverse-racism issue.) Ergo, the larger media sources fully realize just how much of a loss, to their competition and in offense to some of their viewership, they would incur and therefore, just won’t “go there”.

Of course, the reasons most politicians aren’t making enough noise about homophobia in other countries—even though such is somewhat positive in America—is very much a parallel to what the media is doing about it: lack of widespread ACTIVE interest and fear of losing some voter base by offending it. After all, we are talking about POLITICIANS here….lol

In a very minor sense of being critical of your link, the video, I come away from viewing it w/ an uncomfortable suspicious feeling that there was something going on in it that is very similar to a lot of our American “reality” TV shows. Basically, I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the videos taken by the abusers were merely staged ones in an effort to lend support to the piece.

I believe there is a place for such “documentation”. But, I wonder if it often doesn’t end up doing more harm than good for the cause.

 
Flag Post

About Russian heroin use:
UNAIDS also reports that 1.8 million Russians are current injection drug users.” Source: http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/death-indifference-aids-and-heroin-addiction-russia

So far from 20%.

OP probably is referring to this: http://www.vice.com/read/krokodil-tears-v18n9
That is a documentary about a certain city in Russia where 20% is addicted to heroin and/or krokodil, which is a heroin substitute that makes your flesh rot. Hardcore mofo’s, those commie addicts.

There are also numbers which say that Russia consumes 20% of the worlds heroin, cba to look for a reliable source, but it still doesn’t mean that 20% of population does heroin.

 
Flag Post

The main problem really, is that this bit of your post Sigha:

cba to look for a reliable source

Actually sums up every argument the OP has made in serious discussion to date. This thread being no different. Unless that trend changes, then it is rather likely that he can’t be asked to take counterarguments on board either.

In other words, he just spouts gibberish without bothering to fact-check or care what the responses are.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

I think it’s wrong that while the spotlight is on Russia, the media and politicians aren’t making enough noise about things such as this

Aren’t making enough noise? Like 50% of the reason people protesting against Sochi do it is because of the gay bashing culture. What on earth are you talking about?

Besides, the Russians can bash whatever gays they want, it’s their country. Unless they start hunting down the gay athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.

 
Flag Post

vika:

The problem isn’t that the OP can’t be arsed to look for a reliable source, it would take 5 seconds to pull one out of Google. IMO he comes across some fact like “20% of Russia does heroin” and goes on a moral rampage and rushes to SD to bang out a thread about it and then writes “Discuss” at the end and hopes somebody comes along and posts an actual source so she can refer to it from then on.

OP has a history of taking the perceived moral high ground in OT if I remember correctly.

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Helltank:

Besides, the Nazis can kill whatever Jews they want, it’s their country. Unless they start hunting down Jewish athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.

I’m guessing you would of said this too, back in 1936.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Helltank:
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

I think it’s wrong that while the spotlight is on Russia, the media and politicians aren’t making enough noise about things such as this

Aren’t making enough noise? Like 50% of the reason people protesting against Sochi do it is because of the gay bashing culture. What on earth are you talking about?

One: FlabbyWW is talking about, if ya are able to clearly grasp his simple words there, in regards to who he is talking about: the media and politicians. YOUR insinuation is that his point would be more about what “the people” are saying.

Two: Didgya just pull that 50% number outta yer ass? If not, I’d like to see your source.

Three: And, hopefully, it will also give a good perspective (usually very often quite helpful) on what that other 50%, etc. is comprised of by COMPARISON.
.

Besides, the Russians can bash whatever gays they want, it’s their country.
Can ya please expand upon how ya’ve generated this “unique” point?
I can fairly easily counter it by saying: And, I can bash the shit outta whatever Russians & the entirety of culture, products, etc. That is if I want to be as ignorant as they. Remember, it is you that set the bar at “Russians” rather than to use the more specific: Russian BIGOTS.

But, given that ya’re just not good at expressing your true intent, I’ll still be able to bash their bigotry. Sure, the world’s laws have no jurisdiction in Russia. But, Russia does a lot of trade w/ the world…sanctions can sharply hurt it. Ya do know that the U.S. & 60 other countries boycotted the summer Olympics held in Russia?

Russia is holding the Olympics because the world thought it merited the opportunity. Do ya think Russia will have its shit together in only twenty years or so? Usually, the country picked to hold an Olympics is choosen years in advance.

Cultural exchanges can suffer.
Support, either for or against, Russian military “adventures” can have great effect.
.

Unless they start hunting down the gay athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.

Good that ya have an opinion.
Bad that it sucks.
How do you know that the impact their attitude about Gays has isn’t intrinsically infused into many of the other negative issues they are having….and to what degree that might be? Not all Russians hate Gays. Those who don’t might be responsible, in some ways, for the obvious poor showing Russia is having.
.
.
Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:
Originally posted by Helltank:

Besides, the Nazis can kill whatever Jews they want, it’s their country. Unless they start hunting down Jewish athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.


I’m guessing you would of said this too, back in 1936.

A good question. I’m anxious to see his response. For my purposes, he can stay w/ the venue he chose for Gays…..merely “bashing”. But, I want it in real time for ’36 and in hindsight.

THEN, he can comment on how the world views the U.S. in regard to OUR bashing of Gays via the like of WBC and my own Kansas House legislature passing HB-2453. The latter is GOVT sponsored Gay bashing. And, how many other states still don’t allow “Gay marriage”?

Glass houses & tossing of rocks!

 
Flag Post

I think that the Olympics are an integral part of the effort to spread world peace. The Olympics need to be held in countries like Russia so everyone can see how they aren’t evil like they used to be in the Soviet Era.

Also, having representatives from most countries in one place is a great way to boost global bonds! I wish there were more events like the Olympics that got more countries to talk to each other. I hope that one day, events like the Olympics lead to global peace! ;D

Your friend,
Mafefe ;D

 
Flag Post

National Sovereignty extends to the right to treat gays however you like in your country. The ability to hold a sporting event and your attitude toward gays are separate and have no relation.

 
Flag Post
The ability to hold a sporting event and your attitude toward gays are separate and have no relation.

I’d almost agree if the sporting event was purely a national event, but when it involves the international community, that countries human rights records are legitimately in the spotlight, as any country participating in that country are by de facto giving credence to it’s regime.

I guess I was right in my previous assumption, that you’d of said “the Nazis can kill whatever Jews they want, it’s their country. Unless they start hunting down Jewish athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.”…going by your logic.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Helltank:

National Sovereignty extends to the right to treat gays however you like in your country.

An interesting concept there….
A country having the right to shit all over the rights of a group of its citizens.
Niiiiiiiiice.
.

The ability to hold a sporting event and your attitude toward gays are separate and have no relation.

Do ya wanna try to make some sense of that shit before I tear it apart w/ one simple statement? FlabbyWW has already made a credible point; that’s a good place to start a “defense” of yours.
 
Flag Post

Treating gays poorly isn’t shitting all over the rights of its citizens. Hell, there are still some states (like Singapore) where anal penetration is banned and I’m sure if I look hard enough, I can find some states that still ban open homosexuality. Frankly, there’s still a lot of debate over the gay issue and it’s unreasonable to expect countries to change their anti-homosexuality laws so fast. Until gay rights becomes a world-wide accepted thing (like the end of slavery) countries who don’t give gays too many rights are still not in violation of NatSov.

Flabby, the thing about Jews is that nobody wants to see them mass-slaughtered. I can ask ten million people and none of them will say “I think we should purge all Jews”. There are still people around, however, who agree with Russia’s anti-homosexuality point of view; take a look in any gay marriage thread to find them lurking in the corners. Like I said, if at some point treating gays badly suddenly becomes taboo, it’s still within Russia’s rights.

The point about de facto supporting is an interesting one, but do keep in mind the question: was it right to hold the Olympics in Sochi? If I’m an extremely pro-gay country, I can simply decide to not participate. If the question was “is it right for X country to participate in Sochi even knowing they were anti-gay”, I would have agreed that they should not. But the way I see it, the question “to hold the Olympics” is from the point of view of the Olympic selection commitee, and I’m pretty sure nobody’s accusing them of supporting anything.

 
Flag Post

Helltank

Besides, the Russians can bash whatever gays they want, it’s their country. Unless they start hunting down the gay athletes, it makes no impact on their ability to host a sporting event.

Except that it is lucrative, esteemed and sought after. It’s a tacit, if very general, endorsement of them as a nation. Also, considering earlier statements along the lines of ‘no gay athletes allowed’ it initially had a rather direct impact. Also, as it will be hosting athletes, it could potentially effect their health and welfare if targeted by politicians, police, citizenry.

Lastly, I don’t believe in the moral sanction for a majority populace to infringe on select rights of a minority populace. But I suppose that’s a personal affair.

The Olympics need to be held in countries like Russia so everyone can see how they aren’t evil like they used to be in the Soviet Era.

Is that what we’re seeing? My money is still on a false flag terror attack. I’m going to have to eat serious crow if it doesn’t pan out. I mean Putin built his contemporary career on pushing down terrorists, how can he resist doing it while the whole world is watching.

Treating gays poorly isn’t shitting all over the rights of its citizens.

Depends how poorly, doesn’t it? Considering the constant physical violence and murder, I’d argue a fault against the right to life.

Frankly, there’s still a lot of debate over the gay issue and it’s unreasonable to expect countries to change their anti-homosexuality laws so fast. Until gay rights becomes a world-wide accepted thing (like the end of slavery) countries who don’t give gays too many rights are still not in violation of NatSov.

Long over due, I’d suggest it’s unreasonable for them to not have changed by now. Although I’d say Russia’s largest problems are more cultural in that regard then legal. The fact that homosexuality is a fucking Thought Crime is pretty outlandish, but I’d say what’s going down on paper is the lesser of evils.

Flabby, the thing about Jews is that nobody wants to see them mass-slaughtered. I can ask ten million people and none of them will say “I think we should purge all Jews”.

Um, really? Really? That’s bloody asinine. It’s good to know that all those anti semetic, white power, conspiracy, and middle eastern political groups are all defunct.

But the way I see it, the question “to hold the Olympics” is from the point of view of the Olympic selection commitee, and I’m pretty sure nobody’s accusing them of supporting anything.

Well really I don’t see Committee doing anything other chasing dollar signs. I agree that this is probably not the product of some anti gay agenda on their part.

 
Flag Post

Am I allowed to talk about the space program? We could feed a lot of people with the money it takes to observe the effects of weightlessness on M&Ms.

 
Flag Post

A bit late in replying to Helltank, and Ungeziefer has pretty much done a good job. Just one thing I’d like to add…what about the gay athletes competing…should they not go because of their safety? Should they be excluded? I disagree that other countries shouldn’t be voicing their opinions at the Olympics about Russia’s anit-gay policies, when their very own athletes could be affected.

Treating gays poorly isn’t shitting all over the rights of its citizens.

If gays are being discriminated against and abused due to government policies…then the government is ‘shitting all over the rights of its citizens’…homosexuals are citizens also.

 
Flag Post
considering earlier statements along the lines of ‘no gay athletes allowed’

I was not aware of this. If this continues to be true, consider my support for Sochi being the continued hosting place of the Olympics withdrawn.

unreasonable for them to not have changed by now

I don’t feel it’s unreasonable. Singapore, for example, still bans anal sex the last time I checked, and nobody batted an eye about the sporting events held there. For example, it’s going to host the SEA Paralympics Games in 2015 and nobody has raised a finger against this.

I think it really boils down to a question of morals and whether you feel that this violation of what you deem to be moral by the Russian government supersedes its right and ability to apply for an Olympic location.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Helltank:
considering earlier statements along the lines of ‘no gay athletes allowed’

I was not aware of this. If this continues to be true, consider my support for Sochi being the continued hosting place of the Olympics withdrawn.

What a sterling show of support for freedom, just in time for the closing ceremony too.

Originally posted by Helltank:
unreasonable for them to not have changed by now

I don’t feel it’s unreasonable. Singapore, for example, still bans anal sex the last time I checked, and nobody batted an eye about the sporting events held there. For example, it’s going to host the SEA Paralympics Games in 2015 and nobody has raised a finger against this.

I think it really boils down to a question of morals and whether you feel that this violation of what you deem to be moral by the Russian government supersedes its right and ability to apply for an Olympic location.

Depends what the Olympics are supposed to represent, if it was a coming together of the best parts of every nation to compete for national pride and come together closer as an international community then it should not be held in countries that are rather backward. Or if it’s a load of highly paid athletes competing for better advertising sponsorship deals then where-ever there is a load of cash to be made will do

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Kasic:

Off-topic needs to stop spilling out into the SD forum. Don’t they have enough nonsense-trollfest threads there to satisfy them?

Well, guess i am out of the book, eh?
but this topic… i am pretty sure Russia was a 3rd world country… 30 years ago.
Wait, not even. looking up “third world country” It seems like Russia is a second world country. What the hell does that mean?
Thats a thing? Anyways, looking further, water is usually unsafe in old buildings and cities. So best choice is to drink bottled water. So, your plain wrong. In russia, many dogs are rabid, and if they are not, there dogs that are best pals with them.
And for the last one, you were right, it seems it does say 20% is right

 
Flag Post

I was not aware of this. If this continues to be true, consider my support for Sochi being the continued hosting place of the Olympics withdrawn.

It was later rescinded, with a hilarious statement of “Okay, I guess gays are allowed, so long as they don’t molest any children.”

I don’t feel it’s unreasonable. Singapore, for example, still bans anal sex the last time I checked, and nobody batted an eye about the sporting events held there. For example, it’s going to host the SEA Paralympics Games in 2015 and nobody has raised a finger against this.

Well nothing’s going to get as much coverage and general hoofarah as the proper Olympics. But withstanding that, I go back to what I see as Russia’s gay relations problem primarily cultural, and only to a lesser extent legal. Also, I wouldn’t consider banning anal sex a strictly as effecting homosexuals. As for Singapore, it’s a strange place, pornography is illegal but prostitution isn’t. As for anal sex in particular legally it automatically becomes rape regardless of gender, but actually all sexual activity between two men is illegal. That said, their government policy is more or less this and the laws enforcement follows suit.

“(Homosexuals) are free to lead their lives, free to pursue their social activities. But there are restraints and we do not approve of them actively promoting their lifestyle to others or setting the tone for mainstream society. They live their lives, that’s their personal life, it’s their space. But the tone of the overall society, I think it remains conventional, it remains straight and we want it to remain so.” – Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong

It’s not a statement I approve of, but it’s something. Now going back to cultural values, if the rate of homosexually motivated hate crime assaults/murders in Singapore is anywhere near that of Russia I’ll eat my hat.

I think it really boils down to a question of morals and whether you feel that this violation of what you deem to be moral by the Russian government supersedes its right and ability to apply for an Olympic location.

No, they have every right to apply, it was just a foolish thing to select them.

 
Flag Post

I think the sochi olympics would have been better if Russia had used a different paradigm to establish synergy with other nations