Did Jesus fake his own death? page 3

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it was proved he actuley died because when the spear pearced his side the blood and water were seprated witch means ur dead.

 
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Probably means that someone died by getting stabbed through the lungs. But consider that we know less about Jesus than we do about Socrates. The Gospels were written 40 years after Jesus’ Death, and the first independent source on Jesus—Josephinus of Greece, was around 90 AD and may be doctored by later Christian scholars.

Granted, the standard of proof is probably sufficient to claim that Jesus did exist—four books is much more than a few scattered writings or a handful of old texts. But consider that there is a large body of discredited works—Gospels of Thomas, of Judas. The Orthodox Church does not recognize the Book of Revelation as canonical, and I’d say they are probably better off for it.

Further, while people like to throw the Bible into the argument, the Bible’s validity as a historical source is at least questionable. The Gospels do not all agree, and behind the gospels is Constantine’s political aims. Suffice it to say, the bible is a doctored, political source.

Jesus getting nailed to a cross and dying there, then stabbed by a spear? Believable. Jesus’ body disappearing and then people having visions of him? Authorial license and someone stole Jesus’ body. Jesus coming back from the dead—Nope.

In short, the Bible was written by a few diehard patriot fanboys who wanted to use Jesus for political aims, but it became far more…

And Either Jesus died on the Cross and its consequences faked, or Jesus’ entire death was faked (also possible)

 
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Probably means that someone died by getting stabbed through the lungs. But consider that we know less about Jesus than we do about Socrates. The Gospels were written 40 years after Jesus’ Death, and the first independent source on Jesus—Josephinus of Greece, was around 90 AD and may be doctored by later Christian scholars.

Were the Gospels not independent sources? They had literally nothing to do with each other until 325 A.D. I’ve read biographies on Abraham Lincoln written a hundred years after his death. Does that discredit them?

Granted, the standard of proof is probably sufficient to claim that Jesus did exist—four books is much more than a few scattered writings or a handful of old texts. But consider that there is a large body of discredited works—Gospels of Thomas, of Judas. The Orthodox Church does not recognize the Book of Revelation as canonical, and I’d say they are probably better off for it.

The Gospels of Thomas and Judas have a very large Gnostic influence and go strongly against what Jesus spoke and generally believed. As for Revelation, let them not regard it as canonical if they wish.

Further, while people like to throw the Bible into the argument, the Bible’s validity as a historical source is at least questionable. The Gospels do not all agree, and behind the gospels is Constantine’s political aims. Suffice it to say, the bible is a doctored, political source.

They do not all agree? Where, and I want evidence, not “The chronologies disagree because they say different things from different viewpoints.” Surely you realize that Constantine was not in power until nearly two and a half centuries after Jesus’ death. THe entire Bible, eh? THe Old Testament as well?

Jesus’ body disappearing and then people having visions of him?

Not likely. Fortunately, that’s not what happened.

someone stole Jesus’ body.

Do you have any evidence for this at all?

Jesus coming back from the dead—Nope.

Why, because that means that He’s God, and that just can’t be? Why don’t you look at the evidence, refute it, and then say that.

In short, the Bible was written by a few diehard patriot fanboys who wanted to use Jesus for political aims, but it became far more…

That’s why they died for their beliefs, I’m sure.

And Either Jesus died on the Cross and its consequences faked, or Jesus’ entire death was faked (also possible)

Or Jesus died on the cross and its consequences were it’s consequences.

 
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They had literally nothing to do with each other until 325 A.D. I’ve read biographies on Abraham Lincoln written a hundred years after his death. Does that discredit them?

It does if one of them says he was born in Philadelphia and the other one says he was born in Boston.

Why, because that means that He’s God, and that just can’t be? Why don’t you look at the evidence, refute it, and then say that.

I think it is much more likely that a death was faked than the actual son of God coming to Earth in Bronze Age Palestine

That’s why they died for their beliefs, I’m sure.

One of the worst arguments I have ever heard. Plenty of people have died in the name of Zeus, Allah, Ra, or what have you. Does that give more truth to their insane claims?

 
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It does if one of them says he was born in Philadelphia and the other one says he was born in Boston.

Is that the case in the New Testament?

I think it is much more likely that a death was faked than the actual son of God coming to Earth in Bronze Age Palestine

Well, yes, it’s unlikely, but there’s no evidence that it was faked.

One of the worst arguments I have ever heard. Plenty of people have died in the name of Zeus, Allah, Ra, or what have you. Does that give more truth to their insane claims?

No, but it discredits the opinion that they were just ‘fans’ of Jesus.

 
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Hay Jesus did not fake it.

I love him with all my heart.

I beleve that he did die on the cross for out sins

 
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And also.

Read the bible, It will anser your question

 
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Hay Jesus did not fake it.

I love him with all my heart.

What does your loving him have to do with it? You wouldn’t love him if he faked his death?

 
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He faked his life as well, a much better trick.

 
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yes yes he did

 
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Originally posted by Vanguarde:

He faked his life as well, a much better trick.

Faked as in wasn’t the messiah, or didn’t exist?

 
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It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

 
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Originally posted by Vanguarde:

He faked his life as well, a much better trick.

If you’re going to deny that someone is the Messiah, there is no need to deny that they ever existed, especially when there was several works written about him at a time when many of his friends, family, and followers were still around, yet no one tried to disprove them.

that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner.

I wasn’t aware that being brutally whipped and hung on a cross to die was considered ‘glorious’.

 
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Originally posted by Maglor:

It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

A man called Jesus who commanded a following did almost certainly exist.

 
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Originally posted by Smackaine:
Originally posted by Maglor:

It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

A man called Jesus who commanded a following did almost certainly exist.

I would like proof please. Solid proof.

 
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I wasn’t aware that being brutally whipped and hung on a cross to die was considered ‘glorious’.

The death after the crucifixion, because he rose from that death. Sorry, I should have made it clearer.

 
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Originally posted by Maglor:
Originally posted by Smackaine:
Originally posted by Maglor:

It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

A man called Jesus who commanded a following did almost certainly exist.

I would like proof please. Solid proof.

Well if you want absolute proof that he existed, I cannot provide that. Nor can I provide proof about the existence of George Washington or Winston Churchill.

 
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Originally posted by Maglor:
Originally posted by Smackaine:
Originally posted by Maglor:

It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

A man called Jesus who commanded a following did almost certainly exist.

I would like proof please. Solid proof.

It’s a shameful copy-paste, and certainly not solid proof (which could only really be a birth certificate/census data/photo ;) )

Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!

I’m not arguing about the details and all this ‘world went dark’ bollucks, just the actuality of this man existing.

 
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everything that is in the Bible actually happened

 
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really, there isn’t any actual proof of Jesus’s life. If you think about it, not all of the facts seem to have been passed down- something could have been altered, a portion of legacy. If Jesus did actually exist (which yes, may have been possible) then I highly doubt that anything that is written in the bible of him is necessarily true. No proof, unfortunately.

there is no need to deny that they ever existed, especially when there was several works written about him at a time when many of his friends, family, and followers were still around, yet no one tried to disprove them.

Well, yes. Back in that time, humans didn’t think the same way as they do now and you would have been deemed blasphemous. and either way, no physical proof.

 
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I know it may seem biggatry, but I run on hamsters on caffiene, and those hamsters run on logic.

Originally posted by Smackaine:
Originally posted by Maglor:
Originally posted by Smackaine:
Originally posted by Maglor:

It isn’t logically sure that he ever actually existed in the first place, so his death isn’t necessarily the point. And if he did exist, and if he did commit suicide, that would go against religions such as Christianity that say he died in such a glorious manner. The question isn’t if he killed himself, rather if he “Ever Existed”.

A man called Jesus who commanded a following did almost certainly exist.

I would like proof please. Solid proof.

It’s a shameful copy-paste, and certainly not solid proof (which could only really be a birth certificate/census data/photo ;) )

Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!

I’m not arguing about the details and all this ‘world went dark’ bollucks, just the actuality of this man existing.

Pretty big post.

This isn’t really proof. Anything, anything from the internet based on history this far back is unreliable. Nobody knows exactly what happened. Alterations in history are always happening. Humans enjoy being responsible for the work of others, and if that is so then they will alter it to suit what they want, and it is passed down wrongly. But anyway…

Jesus may have existed. But I disagree. That’s all I’m going to say.

 
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why would anyone even ask this question it’s so ignorant and stupid, it’s like me saying “does water really exsit?” i mean come on whoever asked this question has a few screws loose

 
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Originally posted by hattrickhero777:

why would anyone even ask this question it’s so ignorant and stupid, it’s like me saying “does water really exsit?” i mean come on whoever asked this question has a few screws loose

There’s a difference between the pursuit of knowledge and ignorance, and It doesen’t seem you understand it. Asking questions makes you learn more, it isn’t stupid at all.

 
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Originally posted by hattrickhero777:

why would anyone even ask this question it’s so ignorant and stupid, it’s like me saying “does water really exsit?” i mean come on whoever asked this question has a few screws loose

Except for we know that water exists. We don’t know if Jesus did. Making assumptions like that is ignorant and stupid.

 
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Why would those people have claimed Jesus’ existence if he was just a legend?