Gun issues updates

211 posts

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To begin, I looked for an existing gun thread....couldn't find one. So, I started this new one.

There has been some recent items, op-eds, etc. in my local newspaper that I want to share w/ you.

"One":http://www.kansas.com/2014/06/12/3503444/eagle-editorial-one-size-fits.html.

"Two":http://www.kansas.com/2014/06/16/3506941/letters-to-the-editor-on-gay-marriage.html drop down to: Retire army.

"Three":http://www.kansas.com/2014/06/17/3511355/letters-to-the-editor-on-licensing.html This one greatly parallels the opinions most of us here on SD have expressed. I love the ending of the op-ed: _Guys, nobody wants to pry it from your cold, dead hands._

"This Boston University study":http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2617131/largest-gun-study-guns-murder/ points out the obvious: more guns equal more gun violence. It takes into account a huge host of variables.

"This guy":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime disagrees. So does "this Harvard study":http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence. The guy's blog presenting that Harvard study appears to be somewhat conservative....saying this about Ted Kennedy: "In the hours immediately following Senator Ted Kennedy's death, Breitbart called Kennedy a "villain", a "duplicitous bastard", a "prick"[20] and "a special pile of human excrement".[21][22]" He also died in early March of 2012; meaning that he wasn't "treated to" the mass killings since his death.

Interesting that "this Harvard study":http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/ finds just the opposite: "The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there's substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you're looking at different countries or different state., Citations here."

In that same link, another study found this: _Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive._

 
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Sorry, what are you actually trying to say with this OP please Karma? All I got out of it was “there is evidence on both sides of the gun debate”.

I don’t really understand what the thrust of your OP is actually supposed to be. What are you trying to ask, please?

 
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As was pointed out to me in another thread, it’s the American way so it must be right. Now go and write out 100 times “I must not think un-American thoughts”.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Sorry, what are you actually trying to say with this OP please Karma? All I got out of it was “there is evidence on both sides of the gun debate”.

I don’t really understand what the thrust of your OP is actually supposed to be. What are you trying to ask, please?

I hope the title of the thread makes it clear what is to be discussed. They are merely update of an ongoing debate/discussion that is very divisive (as the links point out)….fodder for thinking and responding w/ thoughts.

At this time, are we needing to be all that critical of most anything that attempts to jump-start SD?
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Originally posted by beauval:

As was pointed out to me in another thread, it’s the American way so it must be right. Now go and write out 100 times “I must not think un-American thoughts”.

Unfortunately, that is a position that the more extreme pro-gun advocates take. They are, for whatever idiotic reason, completely unable to grasp the concept that OTHER AMERICANS also live amongst them….Americans who have opinions that, while they disagree w/ theirs, are just as valid.

As I see it, the pro-gunners tend to hold that position far more than the gun-CONTROL crowd.
And, they tend to somehow crazily wield it in a huge influence on Congress.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

At this time, are we needing to be all that critical of most anything that attempts to jump-start SD?

If I don’t know what you actually wish to discuss, how can I discuss it? The whole topic of ‘guns’ is far too broad to be useful to my mind.

Originally posted by beauval:

As was pointed out to me in another thread, it’s the American way so it must be right. Now go and write out 100 times “I must not think un-American thoughts”.

I have to admit, I have been thinking lately, that it would perhaps be wise to hand out free guns & unlimited ammo to anyone over the age of three years old in many US states, no questions asked. Then sit back (move your families OUT of the region where applicable) and let the problem take care of itself.

A ghastly thought true, but damned effective.

 
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No point in banning all guns Crow. They’re increasingly becoming easier to make with new manufacturing technologies. 3D printing@home is a very real way simple, one-shot guns can already be manufactured. A ban at this point in time won’t really help.

What would help is management of the weapons. Admit they won’t go away any time soon, then look to see how we can manage their existence. A big way that would help, and be politically neutral, would be to offer free, or subsidised low-cost situation awareness and certified shooting lessons to anyone who wishes such, no strings attached. That way should that person find themselves in possession of a gun at a future time, they at least have the situational awareness and accuracy training they need to minimise third party casualties.

Ideally, I’d push for basic first aid training to be included in the courses, for the same reason – minimising unintended casualties from gunshots, and a greater awareness of where not to shoot.

You would do away with things like this stupid belief that if you shoot someone in the leg, it’s not likely to kill them. In reality, the opposite is true. Unless they get medical help fast, you’ve torn into major veins, and they don’t have very long to live.

 
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wtf asking for guns to be regulated is EXACTLY LIKE breaking into my house and stealing my guns at gunpoint.

why do you hate the 2nd amendment?

 
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Heh, I take it you’ve never actually read the second amendment, Crow? It actually asks for ‘well regulated’ as part of the right it grants. That’s the part we’ve let slide, and where the greatest gains are actually possible.

I doubt anyone really cares what weapons you own, from a handgun to an anthrax launcher. What matters is rather whether you can be relied upon to use those weapons correctly, and to read the situation for when it is best to use a weapon, and when it is best not to. Or how to deal with an accident with one of your weapons and be trusted to know how to minimise the risk of an accident in the first place.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:

Heh, I take it you’ve never actually read the second amendment, Crow? It actually asks for ‘well regulated’ as part of the right it grants. That’s the part we’ve let slide, and where the greatest gains are actually possible.

I doubt anyone really cares what weapons you own, from a handgun to an anthrax launcher. What matters is rather whether you can be relied upon to use those weapons correctly, and to read the situation for when it is best to use a weapon, and when it is best not to. Or how to deal with an accident with one of your weapons and be trusted to know how to minimise the risk of an accident in the first place.

wtf everyone knows how to use guns

i mean, CoD is one of the top selling games ever!

 
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They know that if you take the safety off (assuming it has one) and pull the trigger, a bullet comes out the end. That’s a fraction of what you need to know.

The bulk of it is analysing the situation, making an educated judgement call about when a weapons is called for, and when it is not. Understanding that every time you draw the thing you have to be mentally prepared to take a life – for real, not in a game. You may not need to use it, but if you do, it is more likely than not, that you’ll shoot someone and you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences.

If you shoot, is your bullet going to lodge in them, or is it likely to continue through them and out the other side? What is on the other side of them? If you miss altogether, what is behind them that you could hit? If you fire up in the air, which direction do you angle the gun, so when the bullet comes down its not going to strike an innocent? How is the weather at the time going to affect the trajectory when you fire up? Are you able to keep cool under pressure so it is easier to work out all these things? If you hit an innocent by mistake, do you know how to patch them up so they survive until help can arrive?

Do you know how to store it safely when you are not using it? Realistically can you afford the security to keep it safe? Have you made sure younger members of your family know what to do to use it properly? Are you mentally prepared to accept responsibility for what could happen if you fail to keep it safe and another’s fingers find it?

There are a large number of issues with responsible gun ownership that are if anything, more important than just knowing how to point it at something and pull the trigger.

 
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Originally posted by RollerCROWster:

wtf everyone knows how to use guns

I even know how to fingerbang
And yes, the double entenre is intended….just as in the song.

The point is: even kids are well familiar w/ the concept of what a gun is/does.
However, there are some uber-pacific folks who make Herculean efforts to shield their young from such horrors.

 
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A big way that would help, and be politically neutral, would be to offer free, or subsidised low-cost situation awareness and certified shooting lessons to anyone who wishes such, no strings attached.

I’m sure the NRA would disagree because that’s what the NRA likes to do: disagree with sensible reforms that don’t really limit your ability to buy a gun.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

I’m sure the NRA would disagree because that’s what the NRA likes to do: disagree with sensible reforms that don’t really limit your ability to buy a gun.

Yea, I was remembering a conversation with Jhco along these lines in the last major gun thread. I know he gets used a lot as an example, but his thoughts usually aligned with overly right-aligned organisations such as the NRA.

In particular he was vehemently opposed to any system that would form an independent registration of gun owners, perhaps actually stored in the NRA’s hands, as that was just “giving the government a list of who to target when they came to take them all away”.

Accepting that viewpoint was likely to be a common one from NRA members, it seemed best to avoid the whole gun registration thing, and instead assume everyone has access to a firearm and go from there. Train them in preparation for using it, rather than asking if they actually have one.

It would also be more in line with the original intent of the second amendment, as we would build up a trained population from the entire citizenry. Should an armed population ever be necessary to defend the country again (which won’t happen but still), we’d already have the hard part down. Everyone would have the basic skills needed, and then it’s just a matter of handing out the weapons / ammo.

Basically I’m trying to approach it from a position that would directly benefit the NRA, as that’s the sort least likely to be opposed.

 
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You are accurate on my feelings vika, I don’t trust this administration at all, and I am becoming weary of government in general. Watching the different bureaucracies flex muscle, such as we saw in Nevada, almost in Texas, and in Utah. We are quickly losing our country. For instance, our government is buying up millions upon millions of rounds of ammunition. The question to ask is why? I see a government allowing thousands of illegal immigrants into the country, why? In a time when we have extreme unemployment and people losing everything they have worked for, we are bringing in illegals. It doesn’t make sense.

A this point in time, our 2nd Amendment is extremely important as we are headed for a dictatorship on the fast track. No one can deny that now. I honestly think our government is pushing for violence in order to declare marshal law. That would make our president a dictator and the Constitution null and void. What bothers me is it isn’t just our country doing this. However, people in the U.K. are fighting back with their elections and it makes me happy to see that country standing up. Ours has yet to really stand up.

Firearms in the hands of the people don’t scare me, they make me feel safer. I know many who are armed in everyday life. You probably do too and don’t realize it. I have had citizens approach me and tank me for excersizing my rights and many would like me to be in there businesses as it makes them feel safer. It is not the normal citizen you have to worry about. When you see a school or theater shooting ask yourself why it is these places where they occur? It is because the mental nitwit willing to kill knows these are places where firearms are restricted.

I have no issue with citizens receiving training from a professional. You will find the majority do. But to try and legislate this be mandatory would just extend the reach of an already far reaching government, out of control. And yes, it is out of control, with congress being eliminated by a dictator.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

As was pointed out to me in another thread, it’s the American way so it must be right. Now go and write out 100 times “I must not think un-American thoughts”.

Beauval, I never have really argued against what you have said about the different subjects here, but what you do in your country affects you and not me. We are a different culture with different ideals that affect us and not you. I have noticed that since America become a powerful country, your country has relied on us to help keep you as free as you are. Maybe that is why we have been allies for so many years.

 
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That’s to do with NATO and nothing at all to do with private citizens running round with guns in their pockets.

Now please explain how mandatory gun training can possibly be a bad idea.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

That’s to do with NATO and nothing at all to do with private citizens running round with guns in their pockets.

Now please explain how mandatory gun training can possibly be a bad idea.

In your country, you have be disarmed. Have you ever asked why? It is because your government doesn’t trust you. It doesn’t trust you to make decisions that might affect you in important ways. You are not considered smart enough to make decisions such as self-defense or be smart enough to shoot a target at a shooting range. This is understandable as you come from a country that is socialist and controls it’s subjects, and this is the culture you have grown up in. You accept that you will be taken care of by your government, even when it fails to do so.

America came from a different background. We left England because we were tired of a government that took most of our earnings as taxation, but didn’t give us a say in how we were ruled. We built America on freedom and independence. We have always been an independent culture, demanding the freedom to pursue our own desires without a suffocating government limiting us. Alas, we have lost a lot of those freedoms in the last few decades, but not our independent thinking. This is what causes so many problems right now. We have a government that wishes to control it’s people like subjects, and the people don’t want it. Sure, we have some who wish to be coddled throughout there lives, to be given a free pass so to speak, but the majority of Americans are of a conservative nature and want to be left alone.

With this said, we also take our personal safety as our responsibility. Not everyone carries a firearm, but enough do that the criminal is at a disadvantage as he doesn’t’ know who is armed and who isn’t. As for training, many of us have grown up with firearms. We hunt, we target shoot, we learn how to defend ourselves. I myself have taught several (a lot) of people how to properly use a firearm. The people I know who believe the way I do also teach shooters. Heck the NRA runs all kinds of programs teaching thousands how to properly use a firearm. In fact, they train thousands of police as well. When we train our soldiers, most already know how to use a firearm as they have been taught most of their lives. For our government to interfere with mandatory training would be like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. It would be like everything else they do, expensive, sub-standard, just another bureaucracy that doesn’t work.

Let me inform you of a few things our government does. Did you know that all of our soldiers coming home from the war are considered terrorists? Did you know they are thrown to the dogs when they get home? PSTD automatically takes their 2nd Amendment rights away, if they have seek treatment. One I find odd is, although they have been taught how to shoot and hunt an enemy, if they want a hunting license they have to take a hunter safety course. This is the government you are asking we Americans to trust to govern our rights. There is a reason the Bill of Rights are there. Without them we would just be subjects.

 
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But you accept mandatory government ordained training before you are allowed to drive a car, fly a plane or pilot a cargo ship into dock. Why are guns so different?

PSTD automatically takes their 2nd Amendment rights away, if they have seek treatment.

I should hope so too. Some of those lads are having a mental breakdown. Do you really think allowing them to carry a gun is a good idea?

 
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The PTSD automatic disarmament thing you are talking about Jhco, does not exist. It’s the latest scaremongering rumor doing the rounds.

What the bill does do, (bill text here) is strengthen the laws restricting or prohibiting known criminals, overly violent or deeply disturbed individuals from possessing firearms. Yes it curtails the 2nd amendment ‘rights’ of those posing an immediate, clear and present danger to society because they are in a badly unbalanced frame of mind.

It has to be enacted upon an individual by a court order and as soon as a medical diagnosis that the issue is treated and overcome (in the case of mental imbalance) or a legal decision that the person has reformed is reached, those rights must be reinstated by the articles of the bill itself.

Simply suffering from PTSD is not nearly enough to have your right to firearms suspended. There must be sufficient evidence that the individual is a danger to others before a legal decision to ban that individual can be made.


EDIT: As to the hunting lisence, well, let’s look at driving. Even if you have a lisence to drive a car, you cannot just hop in an 18 wheeler rig and off you go. Despite the big rig and your car both being road vehicles, familiarity with one does not automatically grant you a full lisence to use the other. They are very different situations and require a different skillset for each type of vehicle. Sure there is plenty of overlap, but there are also essential skills which do not overlap.

So it is with animal hunting with guns versus urban human combat with guns. The skillsets required overlap, but are different. So it makes sense before you do either type for the first time, regardless of whether or not you are familiar with the other type of hunting (human or animal), that someone checks you and makes certain you have all the required skills for that particular environment.

 
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To me banning guns has a lot less to do with the government not trusting me and more to do with me not trusting my live to every single stranger I meet outside.

 
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Box score thus far:
jhco getting his (armed to the) teeth kicked in….AGAIN.
The balance of interested SD’ers wearing boots & “dancing” to the tune of rationality.
They have overly sufficiently addressed his presentations except for these few:
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Originally posted by jhco50:

You are accurate on my feelings vika, I don’t trust this administration at all, and I am becoming weary of government in general.

Such are the makings of a level of PARANOIA that just might be reason enough (of a sufficient level?) for some serious questioning about just who should be owning such powerful weapons. Does he not see the handwriting on the wall that these attitudes by pro-gunners—from individuals right on up to the hugely strong, PAC-represented gun organizatons—are causing equal, if not more, paranoia in a whole lot of ppl…including those who do have (like me) and want to continue to have guns; and ppl who heretofore really didn’t have much of an interest in the issue, but now do and don’t want to have there concerns ignored. After all, they are Americans, also.
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I see a government allowing thousands of illegal immigrants into the country, why? In a time when we have extreme unemployment and people losing everything they have worked for, we are bringing in illegals. It doesn’t make sense.
NO..it doesn’t make sense. Well, probably not to ppl who tend to listen to those who promote agendas that aren’t usually understood by the minions they are directed at.

Illegal immigrants have been coming to North America since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. More recently, Americans who wanted extremely cheap & easily-managed unskilled labor are the ones who are directly responsible for such border crossings….while “the govt.” looked the other way.

The real question here is: why did the govt. look the other way when there was already in place programs for legal immigration? Could it be that those ppl who stood to benefit greatly from illegal immigration also the ppl who exert a particular degree of influence on the govt.?
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A this point in time, our 2nd Amendment is extremely important as we are headed for a dictatorship on the fast track. No one can deny that now.
I’d like to see some UNBIASED sources that agree w/ this hugely paranoia dialogue. But, I doubt he can provide them.
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I honestly think our government is pushing for violence in order to declare marshal law.
He also thinks that Gay marriage is abominable & will cause a huge tear in America’s moral fabric.
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That would make our president a dictator and the Constitution null and void.
“Slippery-slope” much? All it takes to manage the “paranoid herd” is to use buzz words like DICTATOR.

We have had a form of dictatorial governing for about 2 centuries now. It is called oligarchy and/or plutocracy. The only reason such a harsh—and basically an intensely counterproductive—level of govt. takeover would be that those who actually do control things in America would see it as being necessary to protect their interests.

But, loooooong before that….they will use all of the more benign tools at they have to herd the sheeple the direction they desire us to go. Currently, a good amount of Americans are finally becoming aware of the “99-1%” principle…..AND, just might start voting in response to it. The question now becomes: what is the 1% going to do about it?
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Firearms in the hands of the people don’t scare me, they make me feel safer.
Can’t this be said of something that kills far more ppl every year than do guns?
Vehicles on public roads.
I feel safer because of the many improvements in the manufacturing of vehicles and designs in roads…..most of these MANDATED by that boogieman govt.
But, it is those few ppl who shouldn’t have/be driving vehicles that scare the shit outta me. It is they who are the problem; and, are the ones that the serious attention regarding gun CONTROL is aimed at.
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I know many who are armed in everyday life. You probably do too and don’t realize it. I have had citizens approach me and tank me for excersizing my rights and many would like me to be in there businesses as it makes them feel safer. It is not the normal citizen you have to worry about. When you see a school or theater shooting ask yourself why it is these places where they occur? It is because the mental nitwit willing to kill knows these are places where firearms are restricted.
I wonder why he isn’t able to understand that it is this mental nitwit (or much, much worse) that us “normal citizens” want to be restricted from getting their hands on weapons?
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Edited to better fit on a bumper sticker
Originally posted by thijser:

Banning guns has a lot less to do with the government not trusting me and more to do with me not trusting my life to every single stranger I meet.

Holy gun smoke, Batman…we now have a bumper sticker & poster blurb that pretty much puts the whole issue into a damn fine perspective.

 
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as we are headed for a dictatorship on the fast track.

Just no. I shouldn’t even have to say that.

No one can deny that now.

Every sane person can.

I honestly think our government is pushing for violence in order to declare marshal law.

You are honestly disillusioned and paranoid if that is true.

And yes, it is out of control, with congress being eliminated by a dictator.

Where are you getting this idea?

Have you ever asked why?

Probably because people kill each other with guns and that by lowering the amount of people who have them there’s less of that.

This is understandable as you come from a country that is socialist and controls it’s subjects, and this is the culture you have grown up in.

Are you trying to be contradictory? Aren’t we also from a country which is socialist and controls its subjects?

We left England because we were tired of a government that took most of our earnings as taxation, but didn’t give us a say in how we were ruled.

Yes, among other things.

We have always been an independent culture,

Where democracy has never existed and money has forever ruled politics.

demanding the freedom to pursue our own desires without a suffocating government limiting us.

But not getting.

Did you know

Did you know that you are wrong on everything that you’ve said in these last posts?

 
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Oooops….someone just got served a big-ass sandwich;
w/ a tasty side dish of crow

Taste really shouldn’t matter, it appears he is quite adept at lapping up the wondrous words of the when I’m dead crowd.

 
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Originally posted by beauval:

But you accept mandatory government ordained training before you are allowed to drive a car, fly a plane or pilot a cargo ship into dock. Why are guns so different?

Yes you are right, except for the automobile is not mandatory training. The difference is, what you mention is a privilege in this country, not protected by the Bill of Rights, while a firearm is protected. Having a drivers license can be a fleeting thing, it is only at the whim of government, but a right takes much more to alleviate. This is especially true when it is actually stated in our founding document. Yes, our 2nd Amendment has been infringed upon by those who would like to see a country of sheep. You see these “I can live your live better than you can” people on this very forum.

The links provided on here are not at all as accurate as others would like to believe and to be honest not really what I would call reputable sources. The posters know this but post these links to muddy up the waters. However, the truth is, our country is in trouble and what I am saying is what I see happening.