legalization of marijuana page 47

You have lots of theories Jan, but in practice they don’t hold up. No place that has legalized cannabis has experienced the things you think they will. Adolescent use goes down, the illicit trade halts and cannot compete, and in general addiction rates go down. You can’t cite a report otherwise, and your arguments so far amount to vague speculation. Simply knowing a drug dealer and having a rapport with them doesn’t mean their source will be able to make a profit when legal cannabis would be produced at a much faster, consistent, and quality rate. The only thing I can see happening is home growers selling to each other for variety, which is hardly the same kind of illicit trade that goes on today.

That’s strange, I thought Amsterdam was the capital.

Oh, I think I see. Just because your capital caters to international sleaze, doesn’t mean that should affect the reputation of the netherlands in the slightest. Makes perfect sense. It’s just like Bangkok being the child sex capital, and after all, we don’t automatically associate thailand with pedophile sex tourists just because it’s a big deal in Bangkok…right?

yeah, just like Americans are not muggers, loud cab drivers, people that own but never drive a car because they walk everywhere, people that are hard to understand because they talk really fast. (please insert some more New York steriotypes cause i’m sure you know more of them than me)

just because it is in the Netherlands doesn’t mean it IS the Netherlands. and Amsterdam is only our de jure capital. our goverment is in Den Haag.

More examples of your perfectly sound and not in any way contradictory logic! Excellent! Yes the conservatives aren’t doing too well. Of course you haven’t proved that has much of anything to do with the crackdown, but whatevs. As for the liberals ought to being liberal because they’re liberal…You do realize there’s rather a sizeable difference among liberals, right? So they’res the neo-liberals (which your government and many other countries are) who are pro-business and rightly concerned that your tourism industry reflects the sort of yuppie coffee addict pothead culture that is great for the youth demographic, not so great for any other, versus said yuppy liberals like yourself who seem to be under the impression that “if I approve of the government, then it is democratic; if I don’t approve of the government, then it is a tyranny.” Ask the Americans about that one later today.

clever. but no, it’s not “if I approve”, it’s if “the people” approve. as per the definition of democracy.

i didn’t say the conservatives lost votes because of the crackdowns. they probably didn’t, because the market liberals didn’t…plus i’m not even sure which government authorised those crackdowns to begin with…doesn’t the police have their own authority to do those things?

anyway, i’m just showing there’s a difference between government and people. and neo-liberals are still liberals. they still support cultural freedoms. even though our VVD party isn’t showing that much of late.

yeah, just like Americans are not muggers, loud cab drivers, people that own but never drive a car because they walk everywhere, people that are hard to understand because they talk really fast. (please insert some more New York steriotypes cause i’m sure you know more of them than me)

Except that NYC doesn’t make that a selling point of their tourist campaign. People don’t come there for the rude cab drivers. People DO come to the Netherlands for the red-light frolics, and if I were Dutch, I think I’d be pretty embarassed about that. “Once we were an economic superpower rivalling the British Empire…now we’re the Euro-hotspot for hipsters and perverts.”

I remember back when I graduated from high school, everybody was going to take a year off before college and go to Europe. And what’s the unanimous first choice? London? Paris? Berlin? Those might be the places you tick off your list of ‘places to see’, but the first place you go is the drugs, booze and sex capital of Europe – Amsterdam.

I gave it a pass, myself.

just because it is in the Netherlands doesn’t mean it IS the Netherlands. and Amsterdam is only our de jure capital. our goverment is in Den Haag.

Does it matter? Which city do you suppose attracts more tourists each year: The Hague, which i suppose appeals to IR politicos, or Amsterdam, which brings in the aforementioned hipsters, yuppies and perverts? How about Washington DC versus NYC? Ottawa versus Vancouver? I can tell you that virtually no foreigner knows (or cares) much about Ottawa, but Vancouver’s the culture and nightlife capital (in the West), so that’s where the crowds go. The difference is that few tourists go to NYC or Vancouver for the express purpose of doing all the things that are illegal in their own countries. Your country is known worldwide for Amsterdam (and for the reason I just gave). By comparison, The Hague is just an afterthought.

clever. but no, it’s not “if I approve”, it’s if “the people” approve. as per the definition of democracy.

Yes, and that’s sort of the point. ‘The people’ obviously approved or you wouldn’t have that government in power. So, YOU might not like them, but a majority of your countrymen think otherwise, even if that majority is less than 50% of the total population.

“Once we were an economic superpower rivalling the British Empire…now we’re the Euro-hotspot for hipsters and perverts.”

What was America at that time?

The Dutch were a trade empire, that’s where the power of the Dutch came from and they grew rich off it. Sex trade was a strong trade back then, as were foreign ‘exotic’ produce which cannabis would of been at the time. If anything Netherlands is more loyal to it’s cultural past than most countries

What was America at that time?

Non-sequitor. Also i’m not american so my pride isn’t bothered that they were backwoods primitives 400 yrs ago.

The Dutch were a trade empire, that’s where the power of the Dutch came from and they grew rich off it. Sex trade was a strong trade back then, as were foreign ‘exotic’ produce which cannabis would of been at the time. If anything Netherlands is more loyal to it’s cultural past than most countries

Well, that’s certainly an interesting argument, i’ll give you that. And it’s another similarity they have with Thailand – another historical port of call for horny sailors on shore leave! Yet somehow the difference between being a powerful empire that revolutionized the coffee trade, and the city that boasts THE BEST WEED EVER! seems a bit too wide a gulf, IMO. But perhaps that’s just my prejudice that doubts MJ is on the same level of respectability as coffee, alcohol and tobacco. Oh, and paid sex, I guess. Maybe that one’s just a gimme.

Originally posted by TheBSG:

You have lots of theories Jan, but in practice they don’t hold up. No place that has legalized cannabis has experienced the things you think they will. Adolescent use goes down, the illicit trade halts and cannot compete, and in general addiction rates go down. You can’t cite a report otherwise, and your arguments so far amount to vague speculation. Simply knowing a drug dealer and having a rapport with them doesn’t mean their source will be able to make a profit when legal cannabis would be produced at a much faster, consistent, and quality rate. The only thing I can see happening is home growers selling to each other for variety, which is hardly the same kind of illicit trade that goes on today.

Perhaps, perhaps. I probably could cite a report but I just don’t give a damn. Attacking the Netherlands’ debased and overhyped cultural capital (now with extra naivete!) is more enjoyable.

Originally posted by Jantonaitis:

Non-sequitor. Also i’m not american so my pride isn’t bothered that they were backwoods primitives 400 yrs ago.

Not a great deal has changed, really.

Janto,

I’m sure it’s been mentioned already, but tobacco is not analagous to marijauna when it comes to a sin tax. It doesn’t take that much effort to grow MJ in your basement. It’s a hardy weed so to speak. On the other hand, it’s pretty damn difficult to grow your own tobacco. If MJ were legalized across the board (so not just medicinal), you’d have nowhere near the same amount of revenue coming in from MJ, even assuming that there are as many MJ smokers as tobacco smokers, or that they smoke the same amount per annum (and they don’t). People would continue to get it from their own street dealers.

Booze is pretty easy to make still. Also if we assume that selling MJ without legal certification is still illegal then there is going to be a possible price gap to exploit. The rum-runner of MJ is putting his personal time and security on the line and will charge accordingly. A legitimate outfit could simply ship in product that costs virtually nothing to produce. Analogous to tobacco, if not cheaper, in product cost. You would also have a mass array of distribution markets.

So rather then calling a dealer, arranging a hook up, paying for criminal interest multiple fold. They could go to a corner store. Or alternatively, a licensed dealer. I think it is a viable model. If you gave me legal immunity and tobacco prices (much less then a buck a gram) I am positive I could turn that into a viable business model that would be knocking down illegal competitors. We’re also in the heart of the cottage industry, elsewhere I imagine it would only be easier. Do you sincerely think you couldn’t turn a decent dime on such a model?

Except that NYC doesn’t make that a selling point of their tourist campaign. People don’t come there for the rude cab drivers. People DO come to the Netherlands for the red-light frolics, and if I were Dutch, I think I’d be pretty embarassed about that. “Once we were an economic superpower rivalling the British Empire…now we’re the Euro-hotspot for hipsters and perverts.”

I remember back when I graduated from high school, everybody was going to take a year off before college and go to Europe. And what’s the unanimous first choice? London? Paris? Berlin? Those might be the places you tick off your list of ‘places to see’, but the first place you go is the drugs, booze and sex capital of Europe – Amsterdam.

I gave it a pass, myself

so? Dutch tourists in America go to New York and Las Vegas, for similar vices really. do you really think that represents America? are you really bothered by tourists thinking of America as a place of drag-queens and casinos?

we know many tourists come for that. all we are is annoyed by the tourists. as for reputation…actually our reputation is not so bad at all. France keeps complaining about our drug policy, and Americans portray us in hilarious ways, but few countries have a better reputation than us, and as for being liberal and progressive…other countries frequently follow our example, so i mean… more positive than negative i’d say.

anyway, i think we got way off track. i don’t know what we’re even still discussing. also when did you become such a conservatist all of a sudden?

Does it matter? Which city do you suppose attracts more tourists each year: The Hague, which i suppose appeals to IR politicos, or Amsterdam, which brings in the aforementioned hipsters, yuppies and perverts? How about Washington DC versus NYC? Ottawa versus Vancouver? I can tell you that virtually no foreigner knows (or cares) much about Ottawa, but Vancouver’s the culture and nightlife capital (in the West), so that’s where the crowds go. The difference is that few tourists go to NYC or Vancouver for the express purpose of doing all the things that are illegal in their own countries. Your country is known worldwide for Amsterdam (and for the reason I just gave). By comparison, The Hague is just an afterthought.

you mentioned capital, not me. why are you debating your own argument?

Yes, and that’s sort of the point. ‘The people’ obviously approved or you wouldn’t have that government in power. So, YOU might not like them, but a majority of your countrymen think otherwise, even if that majority is less than 50% of the total population.

well that’s why i told you that. i don’t know who authorised the cannabis plantation busts, but if it was political, it was probably the CDA, and pretty much the only people that vote CDA are habit voters, and they’ve been changing their habits. also the VVD is trying to change it’s image to a more police-state image.

anyway, i just don’t think there was any sudden change in paradigm, as you say “[the Netherlands] got tired of being known internationally as the sleazy red light MJ utopia of the world and decided to crack down of some of that”. i’m just not seeing that. Amsterdam dislikes the organised crime brewing behind it’s overgrown red-light district, but it likes the tourists. drugs is just political turmoil. centralist parties all of a sudden are trying to slowly roll it back, but i’m not seeing any popular support for it.

Just wanted to share this graphic on the Pros being presented for the MJ legalization in Colorado:

Update: Amendment 64 passed in Colorado.

That’s good to know, Twilight. Hopefully we can see some real progress on research using the substance, in that state.

Originally posted by vikaTae:

That’s good to know, Twilight. Hopefully we can see some real progress on research using the substance, in that state.

See, the thing I can’t figure out is how the state is going to work it out with the feds. It’s still a demonized drug and crime, in the eyes of the feds. Yet it’s now legal in Colorado. So what happens when a Coloradan legally obtains and uses MJ? Did they commit a crime or not? Are they considered a criminal only outside of Colorado when they leave or visit other places? Like, if they used MJ, then applied for a federal job that wanted to move them and were drug tested, would they be in trouble? It’s still kind of muddy.

Colorado is largely anti-Fed anyway, I believe. So they’ll likely fight tooth and nail if the country’s government tries to enforce its will over their’s. The first test cases will be interesting, but I see your point.

We may face the uncomfortable reality where patients on state-funded medicaid are given the substance for it’s wonderful properties relating to chronic pain management, and those same individuals then have their houses raided by the DEA. It’ll cause unnecessary terror and strife, and inflame tensions in an already-hostile state. However, that would be about par for the course for how our agencies typically handle things.

if they used MJ, then applied for a federal job that wanted to move them and were drug tested, would they be in trouble?

Probably, yes. However, the drug does not stay in your system indefinitely. The receptors it primes, stay primed, but they will not trigger positive on a drug test. So you would have to refrain from consuming it for a few days prior to the test. For all except medicinal users, that should be perfectly doable. Once you work in a federal capacity, even within the state, it is likely still illegal to consume it.

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Update: Amendment 64 passed in Colorado.

I’m ready to get a Rocky Mountain High

Colorado is one of the most boring states I’ve ever driven through, those people need weed like New York needs power. I don’t think I could bring myself to live there even for that.

Originally posted by TheBSG:

Colorado is one of the most boring states I’ve ever driven through, those people need weed like New York needs power. I don’t think I could bring myself to live there even for that.

Well, to each his own. I think CO’s gorgeous, and I’ve had quite a few good times here. It’s even kind of influential, being centrally located and showing up here and there in popular culture.

No, I’m being a bit facetious, I agree it’s quite a beautiful state.

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Update: Amendment 64 passed in Colorado.

And Washington legalises it also; Oregon votes against it being legalised.

which brings me to another point: if state borders made more sense from a cultural/geological perspective, it wouldn’t be Washinton legalizing it both in the low parts and the mountain parts, and Oregon keeping it illegal both low and high; but instead you could have a seperate state for the low regions where it would be legalised which is where the people actually want it to be legal; while the conservative Mountain region would keep it illegal just as they want to.

but no, they don’t make any sense. so now people are stuck with a majority decision of an outside majority.

they should legalized it, not everyone is lazy when they are high either. so that rules out the whole “losing jobs” thing. weed is a plant just like tobacco…and not near as harmful as alcohol so I dont see the issue.